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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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'Lement said:
Argument that we could save more people in the end by spending time on other stuff....We have timestop, so it would be 0 time.
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This is time best spent doing research on how to remove the need for magical girls, period. Not running around like a chicken missing its head.

For that matter, your discussion on the value of a human life doesn't provide any clear impacts on reality or any discussion points for a plan of action. I fail to see its relevance when, quite frankly the way a human life is valued is a pointless argument when the primary objective is "save as many as possible". Maximizing saved lives does not require a metric for the value of human life. The only necessary metric is an integer value reflecting the number of souls that are not inevitably doomed.
 
Hmm... interesting conversation. But...

'Lement said:
And @Gadjo: I see this as an irrevocable moral conflict between "save everyone" and "those lives are not worth saving". Argument that we could save more people in the end by spending time on other stuff....We have timestop, so it would be 0 time.
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Bolding this because some clarification is needed, and its annoying me.

We don't have timestop. Homura does. We depend of her good will and faith in order to make it posible, and I don't think she will appreciate being forced to spend the next years or so in Timestop to deal with what we (the players) think is right. She can no-sell our reasoning as well, since she controls when thr Timestop starts and ends.

So please, stop treating her power as ours.

PD: Kinematics ninja'd me, but this can be used as an attempt to expand his statement.

Now, RE: The eternal timestop arc... what exhausting at best, but not because we spend all that time in, well, timestop. It was because despite being neccesary to locate and stop Oriko we frankly accomplished very little aside from that.

And lastly, every life is important but we must face the fact we can't safe everyone. Stop giving Sabrina a worse heroic complex than she already has, for at the end this will explode in our face as Sabrina realizes she wants to safe people but circunstances out of her control doesn't allow her to.
 
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@Kinematics: You fragmented the sentence fragments into further fragments - fixed it up a bit, but the bit about Chouko and value is supposed to be taken together, it is not one and the other when it is about valuation.

Regarding sweeps: You don't have to sweep every few minutes to save 95% of the lives, at least - once a week is fine. The lives that you're speaking of instantly witching out - they are not affected at all by a sweep and shouldn't be clumped together under that.

@Onmur: Here, my saying that we have a price tag in lives making Homura little bit more hopeful.

Homura could be worth more than the lives lost there, despite not supporting a family and being antisocial and distant with probably shorter lifespan, thanks to her timestop.

But she isn't, it isn't being used and thus it is a void argument. Dismissing that because it is valuable when used...it strikes me as tautological.

@EtchedSteel: Sure, but I already addressed that above. I'm not speaking of eternal one but one with immediate need for stuff that would take just as long without.

Not everyone...Just the people that would be within the domain of Sabrina already. But like you said, it is not wanted, thus the abandonment of hollow ideals.

@Crasian01: I understand research time could be more valuable over the whole world, but we don't genuinely work towards that either. SCIENCE votes are fun ones, to me, but they're their own fun in and of themselves and they get ditched for other things all the time.

That said, while not a vote, it is not that hard to propose stuff like [ ] Offer Homura to clean city together, her getting all the seeds or [ ] Go out and seek out witches during night, ripping them apart ASAP.
 
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Jackercracks said:
In big purple letters 10ft tall. That would do it, Sabrinas multitasking seems like it should be okay to keep them up there most of the day.
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Uhh, Sabrina's grief control limit is a hundred meters, and she lives in a city that regularly has buildings taller than that. Unless you want to take a giant hedgeclipper to Mitakihara and just slice entire urbanscapes in half, I don't see how this is at all practical.
 
EtchedSteel said:
Hmm... interesting conversation. But...



Bolding this because some clarification is needed, and its annoying me.

We don't have timestop. Homura does. We depend of her good will and faith in order to make it posible, and I don't think she will appreciate being forced to spend the next years or so in Timestop to deal with what we (the players) think is right. She can no-sell our reasoning as well, since she controls when thr Timestop starts and ends.

So please, stop treating her power as ours.

PD: Kinematics ninja'd me, but this can be used as an attempt to expand his statement.

Now, RE: The eternal timestop arc... what exhausting at best, but not because we spend all that time in, well, timestop. It was because despite being neccesary to locate and stop Oriko we frankly accomplished very little aside from that.

And lastly, every life is important but we must face the fact we can't safe everyone. Stop giving Sabrina a worse heroic complex than she already has, for at the end this will explode in our face as Sabrina realizes she wants to safe people but circunstances out of her control doesn't allow her to.
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Succintly: Trying to make Sabrina into Shirou Emiya is a bad idea.
 
'Lement said:
@Onmur: Here, my saying that we have a price tag in lives making Homura little bit more hopeful.

Homura could be worth more than the lives lost there, despite not supporting a family and being antisocial and distant with probably shorter lifespan, thanks to her timestop.

But she isn't, it isn't being used and thus it is a void argument. Dismissing that because it is valuable when used...it strikes me as tautological.
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It's not about timestop. If Homura loses hope on this timeline, she resets. Everybody in this world? Gone, and we most likely can't help her in the next one. Game Over, Homulily/Gretchen likely to destroy everything in the future.

If she tries to reset, we can try to kill her before she does, or try to get Madoka to wish us back in time or something else we currently consider 'BAD END'. So yes, Homura's quite a bit more important than a handful of people.
 
Onmur said:
It's not about timestop. If Homura loses hope on this timeline, she resets. Everybody in this world? Gone, and we most likely can't help her in the next one. Game Over, Homulily/Gretchen likely to destroy everything in the future.

If she tries to reset, we can try to kill her before she does, or try to get Madoka to wish us back in time or something else we currently consider 'BAD END'. So yes, Homura's quite a bit more important than a handful of people.
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I don't think it would be a bad end. We're playing as Sabrina, not as Homura. From our POV time keeps flowing as normal but without Homura who just looped out of this timeline.

She only does timeleaps. She doesn't make/destroy universes at will.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
The Incubators, from a certain perspective, are working to extend the viability of sapient life everywhere. Are we so immoral as to deny that our sacrifice will save trillions?

Time to witch out for the greater good.
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We can witch out for the greater good if the universe is about to end and that witch-out energy is immediately necessary to keep the everything alive. Until then, science. Sweet, magical science.
 
Yeah, because Shiro is a condensending jerk who doesn't understand how to make choices.

Like I am not saying there are no issues that time stop can't solve. (And negotiating Homura into using it for what we want is a huge deal) but just because using a tool is hard doesn't mean you never use it, or don't try to figure out how to use it.

I mean hell if the sort of issues we are talking about were enough to stop people cold governments wouldn't exist.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Uhh, Sabrina's grief control limit is a hundred meters, and she lives in a city that regularly has buildings taller than that. Unless you want to take a giant hedgeclipper to Mitakihara and just slice entire urbanscapes in half, I don't see how this is at all practical.
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Stick it in the gaps between buildings if we happen to be among skyscrapers. You're smart, I bet you could find multiple ways to get around that if you felt like it. Seems practical enough to me, it's not like there's anything using that space apart from birds.
 
EtchedSteel said:
I don't think it would be a bad end. We're playing as Sabrina, not as Homura. From our POV time keeps flowing as normal but without Homura who just looped out of this timeline.

She only does timeleaps. She doesn't make/destroy universes at will.
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How about if Gretchen keeps growing until it destroys more than one universe, and moves onto the next?
Jackercracks said:
Stick it in the gaps between buildings if we happen to be among skyscrapers. You're smart, I bet you could find multiple ways to get around that if you felt like it. Seems practical enough to me, it's not like there's anything using that space apart from birds.
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Eh, if we want to attract megucas, we don't need to write anything. Just keep an invisible mass of grief nearby and megucas should pop up to kill the 'witch'.
 
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Jackercracks said:
Stick it in the gaps between buildings if we happen to be among skyscrapers. You're smart, I bet you could find multiple ways to get around that if you felt like it. Seems practical enough to me, it's not like there's anything using that space apart from birds.
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...I take it you don't live in an east Asian urban center. Trust me when I say that unless you like the sound of grief scraping against buildings, this plan of yours isn't going to fly.
 
Not to mention Kyubey would give us no end of grief from it. Having to constantly mindwipe people who see a big, floating, eldritch sign from anywhere in the city would be a total pain in the ass.
 
@Onmur: In addition to what you and EtchedSteel pointed out regarding the loops, there is also the fact that I consider it her own mess; a mess we should help nonetheless, but not of inflating value for her, as in this case her hope(wish) and despair(reset) balance out quite perfectly.

@SynchronizedWritersBlock: There are better way to go about it, but ahaha this thread has even worse attitude towards helping incubators, even ignoring the whole "What is a Non-Human"?

@SaltyWaffles: Onmur is right, atm. But I guess we'd have to keep it in our handbag or something like that.

...Albeit the landscaping isn't so tight that we can't fly in Mitakihara, come to think of it. If we can fly, we can put something invisible in air.

@Nolrai: That too, though my point is more towards the line that we don't need timestop for lot of stuff we could do.
 
'Lement said:
You fragmented the sentence fragments into further fragments
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No, I responded to each sentence in turn, pointing out that each thing you said made no sense. I can make guesses about what you might have meant, but then I'm just arguing against my best guess regarding your argument, not the argument itself.
'Lement said:
At least if Chouko or Yumi had died in combat they'd have been estranged from their families for certain, unlike those who died there.
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And that somehow makes it better?
'Lement said:
In that way, I calmly value just general veteran meguca with nothing special like them or Mami lower than an average person. Yes, they fight witches, but they also perpetuate the system by this and itself, not stand outside of it.
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They are trapped in the system. Valuing them as less than an average human life sounds to me like blaming the victim.

In more general terms, you're making a philosophical argument that looks like a bunch of sticks thrown together. It's rambling, partially incoherent, and does not even support its own conclusions. It also holds Sabrina to a different, artificially uplifted, moral standard than anyone else.
 
Cannongerbil said:
...I take it you don't live in an east Asian urban center. Trust me when I say that unless you like the sound of grief scraping against buildings, this plan of yours isn't going to fly.
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As much as that's correct for most east Asian urban areas, remember that this is Mitakihara, with unreasonably large amounts of ground space per capita (eg: Madoka's house, every time Sabrina sees it).
 
Nolrai said:
Yeah, because Shiro is a condensending jerk who doesn't understand how to make choices.

Like I am not saying there are no issues that time stop can't solve. (And negotiating Homura into using it for what we want is a huge deal) but just because using a tool is hard doesn't mean you never use it, or don't try to figure out how to use it.

I mean hell if the sort of issues we are talking about were enough to stop people cold governments wouldn't exist.
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It's not even the main hurdle, though: fatigue is. Also, timestop-nuking the city could cause diplomatic problems with Masami and Kyoko, both of which we're trying to get on better terms with (killing all the witches in town could be seen as a aggressive action meant to force them to ally with us for survival). The MC isn't a bad person simply because she doesn't spend every waking moment witch hunting. I mean, is Mami a bad person for daring to go to school when she could be off hunting witches all day?
'Lement said:
There are better way to go about it, but ahaha this thread has even worse attitude towards helping incubators, even ignoring the whole "What is a Non-Human"?
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We're wary about helping the Incubators because they're a bunch of psychopaths from space who harvest the souls of little girls to fuel their empire and we know for a fact they'll betray us the instant it becomes profitable to do so.
Crasian01 said:
@'Lement
What is the point of this discussion on the value of human life? Is this intended as a criticism of the behaviour of the thread or something?
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I think at this point that they're just complaining that they found an inconsistency, since they know full well why we won't vote for the uber-witch-hunt.
 
Crasian01 said:
Did anyone mention/discuss Science Victory versus Cultural Victory?
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Hmm, didn't we establish that the cultural method won't last without significant systemic changes to how the meguca system works? The whole reason why megucas generally end up being ruthless is that the system is set up to encourage or even demand ruthlessness, and those that don't adhere to those principles don't last very long. Megucas don't act like this because they enjoy it, they act like this because those that don't die out. There isn't a way to achieve a cultural change without implementing a systemic change, and that can only be done through science.
 
I will grant, though, that we have actively avoided attempting to check on potential pre-witchings. I tried to get that into a vote when we were talking with Oriko this afternoon, but it got pushed away. I really hope that the chicken witch didn't hatch within the time period between that conversation and when we found it (a window of perhaps 6 hours).
 
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