Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
FlatlineAskari said:
This is very, very far from certain.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While it's not certain, I would strongly disagree with the idea that it's far from certain.

Anything we do to 'solve' the witch problem must necessarily deal with the Incubators: either cooperation, neutralization (remove their ability to gain energy from earth at all), eviction (from the planet; a form of neutralization), or destruction/subjugation (of their species). At the present time, we don't even have an inkling of how we might accomplish any of those (aside from cooperation) short of becoming (or creating) a god (which I already noted as not really qualifying as a 'useful' solution).

Saying that it's 'far' from certain implies we at least have some paths we might pursue for that purpose, even if we don't know the exact solution yet. At present, such paths do not exist.
 
Last edited:
Kazumi Magica sets a precedent for evicting the Incubators. Magic seems like a way to just kick them off the planet if we have to. It's definitely a more appealing option than trying to appeal to the better nature of the arrogant, unreliable, backstabbing alien collective with a vested interest in seeing us fail.
 
Regarding yuri goggles, I've been reading PMMM doujins recently...And I think I've grown to like SayaHomu shipping more :p more snarky (even if it is impossible as things currently stand).

Plus in PMAS we've shipped SabrinaMiki too.

Though Mami does get paired with everyone (and is mostly alone), even her killer (wtf?).

@Ugolino: I disagree with your incubator analysis.

Kazumi in particular: Why would they nuke the nun from orbit when they could view interesting stuff?

+ Still get extra energy from witchouts anyway.
 
Last edited:
Ugolino said:
A. The most important thing we should remember: the Incubators are our enemy and the enemy of every magical girl, and that is never going to change, no matter what we try to do. No matter how he hides it, Kyubey wants as much grief/energy as possible, as fast as possible, and will do anything to get it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I personally think this is a false premise. The incubators are our enemy now because the most efficient way they have of gathering grief run counter to our goals. The don't necessarily have to be our enemies forever, and in fact there are ways where we can engineer a situation where it would be more beneficial for them to work with us. Kinematics phrased it best:
Crasian01 said:
What is your projected necessary margin of improvement for Kyubey to ditch witches as part of the system?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Kinematics said:
Two separate answers:
First, I can't answer that directly because we haven't been able to ask Kyuubey for the numbers from the current system (and some people are unwilling to even ask).
Second, there's no specific margin for Kyuubey to ditch the witches. We could have a system that yields 10x as much grief as witch hunting, but as long as it doesn't require not hunting witches, all that means is that Kyuubey can now get 11x as much grief as before.
Either hunting witches has to be actively detrimental to the new plan, or the new plan has to surpass the output from witch hunting by such a huge margin that it's a waste of time to spend resources continuing the witch hunting method.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If this scenario can be achieved, it can and will be more beneficial for us to work together with the Incubators than it is to oppose them because reasons. This also applies to this point, btw:
Ugolino said:
B. Their goals and ours are completely incompatible, and we should keep that in mind. We want to save all Puella Magi and minimize contracts. They want to farm Grief, and the larger the payoff the better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As for the other points, well, here's the thing. I'm not saying that working with the incubators is risk free, it's just the option that's most likely to succeed without having to go full goddess. Any plan that we come up with needs to deal with the incubators somehow, and at this point in time, cooperation is the plan that is most likely to work.

Trying to cut the incubators out of the system entirely is not going to end well, to say the least. You've said it yourself, they value grief above all. What do you think they will do if one of the megucas start going around, implementing a system that seriously cuts into their profit margins?

Trying to buy them over isn't exactly the most palatable option, but when the alternative involves going to war with the incubators...

Ugolino said:
Kazumi Magica sets a precedent for evicting the Incubators. Magic seems like a way to just kick them off the planet if we have to. It's definitely a more appealing option than trying to appeal to the better nature of the arrogant, unreliable, backstabbing alien collective with a vested interest in seeing us fail.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
If I was an incubator and saw Kazumi magica, why would I remove the nun casting barrier?

It's interesting :V And got witchout faster too.
 
@Cannongerbil
Bad writing or not, precedent for magic bullshit is still precedent. :p

The problem is that we simply cannot guarantee that the Incubators will hold to any agreement. Rather, on the contrary, we KNOW they will try and break said agreement for an even higher payoff, no matter how good or profitable the system is. Especially a large short term one such as Madoka that we really can't outbid.

The Kine scenario doesn't actually seem possible, and if we were to work on it, it really doesn't need to involve cooperation at all. And shouldn't because until and unless we have anything to offer, the Incubators would have no reason not to want us dead anyway. Them being bad allies is another can of worms altogether.

I disagree on cooperation being the best plan for us (ie: the planet). If ignoring them and working on a local fix to the system isn't an appealing option and neither is holding and looking for other options, then right now we should work on booting them off the planet because they're a threat to us and everyone else by virtue of their going after Madoka if nothing else.
 
Last edited:
'Lement said:
Regarding yuri goggles, I've been reading PMMM doujins recently...And I think I've grown to like SayaHomu shipping more :p more snarky (even if it is impossible as things currently stand).

Plus in PMAS we've shipped SabrinaMiki too.

Though Mami does get paired with everyone (and is mostly alone), even her killer (wtf?).

@Ugolino: I disagree with your incubator analysis.

Kazumi in particular: Why would they nuke the nun from orbit when they could view interesting stuff?

+ Still get extra energy from witchouts anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
MamiLotte only exists because of the fact that there's nobody else to pair the poor girl up with, what with MadoHomu and SayaKyou. Though it would make for a good white card in CAH. 'Falling in love with your killer.' And now I feel that a fanfic-oriented expansion pack could work out.
 
Ugolino said:
@Cannongerbil
Bad writing or not, precedent for magic bullshit is still precedent. :p

The problem is that we simply cannot guarantee that the Incubators will hold to any agreement. Rather, on the contrary, we KNOW they will try and break said agreement for an even higher payoff, no matter how good or profitable the system is. Especially a large short term one such as Madoka that we really can't outbid.

I disagree on cooperation being the best plan for us (ie: the planet). If ignoring them and working on a local fix to the system isn't an appealing option and neither is holding and looking for other options, then right now we should work on booting them off the planet because they're a threat to us and everyone else by virtue of their going after Madoka if nothing else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
yeah. NO. can we not go with this please? Your route will bring nothing but frustration.
 
From the science of grief energy to another witchbomb discussion to shipping. All within a few pages. Or what SV calls, a Tuesday. Funny. That's today.
 
Kinematics said:
Anything we do to 'solve' the witch problem must necessarily deal with the Incubators: either cooperation, neutralization (remove their ability to gain energy from earth at all), eviction (from the planet; a form of neutralization), or destruction/subjugation (of their species). At the present time, we don't even have an inkling of how we might accomplish any of those (aside from cooperation) short of becoming (or creating) a god (which I already noted as not really qualifying as a 'useful' solution).

Saying that it's 'far' from certain implies we at least have some paths we might pursue for that purpose, even if we don't know the exact solution yet. At present, such paths do not exist.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There are plenty of potential paths here.
Neutralization (putting the system on Earth beyond economic repair by harvesting and repurposing, dissipating or destroying the grief ourselves) is comparatively trivial as a stopgap solution, and may be a feasible long-term solution contingent on various things.
Eviction or destruction (again, rendering local ops uneconomic, not extirpating them) may be relatively easy, too - if the masquerade can be eroded to such an extent that contractees know what they're dealing with/Incubators are materially or doctrinally incapable of responding to large-scale force on our part/the Incubators rely on local assets of some kind to support their operations here.
Okay; we don't (yet) have adequate information to know if these approaches could pay off. The same goes for any kind of cooperation, plus it hinges on the indefinite cooperation of a known bad actor.
 
Ugolino said:
1. We know what he wants. (Unlimited emotional energy, preferably in nice large payouts.) We just can't give it to him at this time.
2. Even if we had what he wants, it's impossible to give it in such a way as to stop him from betraying us at the first hint of a potentially larger payoff when he has a track record of just that.
3. A useful solution such as kicking the Incubators off the planet and aiding the existing megucas is a viable, even preferable alternative. There are definitely others we could try. Even the status quo of 'no interaction beyond grief marbles while working to reverse witchouts en-masse' is perfectly viable.
4. Kyubey wants us dead. This is a fact. In the long term, he wants every single magical girl dead and producing grief energy. I do not see that as likely to change.
5. We are not going to be able to get useful information out of Kyubey at this junction without revealing far more of our cards than I'm comfortable with.
6.Working with the Incubators doesn't actually get us anything.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
A more reasonably defined set of objections. Still have some counterpoints, though.

1. Pretty much true as stated, but there have at least been ideas on how to accomplish it (assuming you replace the arbitrary 'unlimited', which sets a bar far higher than reality, with 'better than current').
2. Not impossible. Implementing a new methodology is not instantaneous. Just ask for review authority on any new ideas, and see if we can't improve on them.
3. Just need to come up with an idea of how that could possibly be accomplished.
4. Us dead is a side effect of what he wants, not what he wants itself. He wants the energy provided by a witchout. The witchout is a means, not an end.
5. Well, as this is personal opinion, not much that can be said about it. Have to give a proper analysis in what gets revealed by what we do (and don't) ask. Simply not asking doesn't mean he gets no information; rather, it gives us a bit more control over the information he obtains.
6. It could possibly get us a great deal. Such as the Incubators no longer actively trying to cause girls to witch, for example.
 
1. Except that we NEED unlimited power to really guarantee safety. We can't do that? Then there's the biggest issue with any cooperation. We CAN'T buy him off for good because he'll always try for more.
2. He DOESN'T care what we want or what he agreed to. He can and will ignore us in testing if he feels its necessary, and there's nothing we can do about it except have it explode in our face- and it'll be our fault for aiding and abetting him in the first place.
3. Kazumi's gang of lunatics could manage it. We'd have an entire planet of wishes and girls to draw upon to bullshit something. We'd have a better foundation to work from than for cooperation.
4.Yes, but that's cold comfort when we're still dead. Witchouts are a very high bar to top for payouts, especially Madoka-tier potentials.
5. Kyubey is well known to be averse to actually giving useful information. We can't and shouldn't ask now or as long as we can practice information control. If and when the game is up, then maybe that'd change but for now we can't afford to play 20 questions with QB.
6. Emphasis on 'possibly'. I don't see any scenario where we can trust the Incubators to uphold their end, no matter how good we THINK our alternative is. They'll always try for a bigger payout, a better reward, and never mind the consequences.
 
Last edited:
Ugolino said:
1. Except that we NEED unlimited power to really guarantee safety. We can't do that? Then there's the biggest issue with any cooperation. We CAN'T buy him off for good because he'll always try for more.
2. He DOESN'T care what we want or what he agreed to. He can and will ignore us in testing if he feels its necessary, and there's nothing we can do about it except have it explode in our face- and it'll be our fault for aiding and abetting him in the first place.
3. Kazumi's gang of lunatics could manage it. We'd have an entire planet of wishes and girls to draw upon to bullshit something. We'd have a better foundation to work from than for cooperation.
4.Yes, but that's cold comfort when we're still dead. Witchouts are a very high bar to top for payouts, especially Madoka-tier potentials.
5. Kyubey is well known to be averse to actually giving useful information. We can't and shouldn't ask now or as long as we can practice information control. If and when the game is up, then maybe that'd change but for now we can't afford to play 20 questions with QB.
6. Emphasis on 'possibly'. I don't see any scenario where we can trust the Incubators to uphold their end, no matter how good we THINK our alternative is. They'll always try for a bigger payout, a better reward, and never mind the consequences.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ugo, take a step back. I have no idea what the hell is going on, but half your points aren't even addressing the points that Kinematics raised.

Point three in particular is...

Just view this quote.
'Lement said:
@Ugolino: I disagree with your incubator analysis.

Kazumi in particular: Why would they nuke the nun from orbit when they could view interesting stuff?

+ Still get extra energy from witchouts anyway.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
Cannongerbil said:
Ugo, take a step back. I have no idea what the hell is going on, but half your points aren't even addressing the points that Kinematics raised.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...I don't see it. :confused:

1. Any payoff less than unlimited won't get the desired goal of getting Kyubey to back off.
2. Review authority is a joke when it puts all the power there in Kyubey's hands, and he can go behind our backs with no consequences.
3. The idea he asked for.
4. Witchouts are very profitable, and it being a side effect of getting grief doesn't change that it's still a witchout.
5. We're not getting useful information out of Kyubey.
6. Disagreeing with that.

EDIT: As far as we know, it worked. No canon support for the idea that they were planning an asteroid nuke, and we can take steps to get around that if that's a serious problem. Because magic.
 
Last edited:
I have absolutely zero interest in working with the incubators in any capacity. The first opportunity we have a viable means of booting them off Earth, I am fully supporting it.
 
Fully aside from whether or not it's feasible or necessary, I'm uninterested in any plans that cooperate with Coobs in any way other than Grief disposal. Ideally, kicking him off-planet and/or inflicting some form of ironic punishment would be preferred.
 
Muramasa said:
I have absolutely zero interest in working with the incubators in any capacity. The first opportunity we have a viable means of booting them off Earth, I am fully supporting it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The one proviso I'd add here is that, if that conjecture about them being unable to drain seeds proves correct, this may mean we can get seeds returned in exchange for cleansing them.
I want them back - saved, destroyed, secured, whatever, just out of Incubator hands paws.
 
aeqnai said:
Fully aside from whether or not it's feasible or necessary, I'm uninterested in any plans that cooperate with Coobs in any way other than Grief disposal. Ideally, kicking him off-planet and/or inflicting some form of ironic punishment would be preferred.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, buddying up with history's most prolific serial killer mass murderer doesn't appeal that much.

Ironic punishment doesn't seem all that likely short of Sabrina ascending, but revoking his visa to Earth does. :D
 
Last edited:
I can see both sides of this argument. I feel like there's something we're missing, because I don't think that realistically, these are mutually exclusive positions. It seems feasible to work with Kyubey in such a way as to remove Incubator influence in the planet.

Ugolino said:
Yeah, buddying up with history's most prolific serial killer doesn't appeal that much.

Ironic punishment doesn't seem all that likely short of Sabrina ascending, but revoking his visa to Earth does. :D
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Please refrain from misusing the phrase "Serial Killer".
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top