But more importantly, if it doesn't address core issues, then what are core issues in your opinion and how to address them?

On the apology, it's actually a very difficult one to articulate. Are we sorry for dragging her along? I'm not sure we genuinely are. I'm damn glad she stuck with us. What we're sorry for is how we go about doing things with her, not that the things were done. We're sorry because we are bad at considering other people's feelings, and remembering that those feelings are often more important than the results.

How to say it, though...


[]I haven't been much of a friend... no, let me finish, please. When was the last time I offered you something without needing something in return? When was the last time I heeded any advice you've given me unprompted? I'm sure you don't see me as selfish, but with you, I have been. I'm sorry. You shouldn't have to worry over me so much, but you do anyway. I'm so sorry.

Fuck, that's no good either. I can't do this right.

[]
 
So. Ignoring the whole issue of what to do with the Sendai girls, is anyone going to comment on the massive mixed signals we're sending Mami with the

[] Collapse into bed. Huggle the Mumi.

Because that really is the last thing that she (and us, really) needs right now. We aren't girlfriend, and that sure as hell is something you do with one. She'll hugblob on her own. Change to, say,

[] Return home. Make tea. Unwind.
[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
[] Flop onto couch next to Mami; unwind MORE before bed, so you can talk.

This also gives us more room to play around with dealing with her, and less outright fucking things up.

(also oh hey I'm back :D)
 
@SWB: Actually that's Kinematic's from nearer the top of the page.

Will address my own thoughts on apology in a bit.
 
[x] Us doing anything can only make things worse.
-[x] Trust in Rin. She'll call us if anything changes.
[X] Update Chouko on the situation
[x] Go home. Drop Kirika off with Oriko then go home.
[X]Return home. Make tea. Unwind.
[X] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
[X] Flop onto couch next to Mami; unwind MORE before bed, so you can talk.

Rooks suggestion is a good one.
 
But this is not for their but Akiko's sake, lest she figure the Ishinomaki will be left to sleep.
Huh? Sorry, this sentence doesn't make any sense.
When we asked them what sort of schedules would be workable for us to handle said cleansings.
We have to say something to Rin, she is staring at us waiting for answers right now.
It's not like we're going to walk away without saying anything at all. The 'trust in Rin' is a general intent of direction. We let her know that we're leaving things in their hands, and heading home. However that's not something we need to explicitly articulate, here.
We've literally done nothing to comfort Akiko beyond minimizing our presence. Frankly, Sakura has a point.
As noted, that's about the most we can do. Plus, leaving a magic blanket? How far away do we have to get before it disappears? Kinda pointless.
I am not so sure - I've seen nobody else even suggest it.
Precisely because it isn't necessary.
Grief isn't dangerous to a grief controller
I think we've already seen instances where it could be dangerous to us. We just haven't tried anything too monumentally stupid.
and fire is hot gas, not energy
Fire is the result of an exothermic chemical reaction that produces enough energy to excite photons out of the nuclei to produce light. What we see, and treat as fire, is explicitly energy.
 
I think we did imply that we will meet for cleansing, but not in general.
When did we?
I believe we repeatedly did not - only voted for it and then got interrupted.
The exchange was for half seeds only.
"And it doesn't mean that you can't fill up the Seeds the rest of the way either," you continue, expounding on your idea. "I mean, you still can, in an emergency."
We've literally done nothing to comfort Akiko beyond minimizing our presence. Frankly, Sakura has a point.
It's not our place, it was a big part of the last vote.

On the apology, it's actually a very difficult one to articulate. Are we sorry for dragging her along? I'm not sure we genuinely are. I'm damn glad she stuck with us. What we're sorry for is how we go about doing things with her, not that the things were done. We're sorry because we are bad at considering other people's feelings, and remembering that those feelings are often more important than the results.
I'm of a mind that we can't give a proper apology just yet. We can tell Mami we've been a bad friend, or that we've been trating her badly, but it's gonna take a while for her to actually process that, because she won't want to. She's gonna feel scared that we'll leave her, she'll try to take the blame for any problem we bring up.

We made her follow us to Sendai when she didn't want to? Oh, she's so terrible for trying to stop us from doing something good.

Our apologies aren't gonna be worth their weight in shit until Mami can accept them.

So, a simple apology for now, let Mami know we feel we've been doing something wrong. Expand on it later, after a good night of sleep and clearing our heads and after Mami's got enough time to seriously consider there's a problem and that the problem is not her. For once.
 
[x] Us doing anything can only make things worse.
-[x] Trust in Rin. She'll call us if anything changes.
[X] Update Chouko on the situation
[x] Go home. Drop Kirika off with Oriko then go home.
[X]Return home. Make tea. Unwind.
[X] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
[X] Flop onto couch next to Mami; unwind MORE before bed, so you can talk.
 
On the apology, it's actually a very difficult one to articulate.
Indeed. That's why I went with just a general "everything we've realized today". We've had plenty of thread discussions on the issues; hopefully that's sufficient to be clear. We can respond to more specific points later, if necessary.

@Muramasa: So leave off the minor question about Mami's feelings regarding Oriko and Kirika? I can see why we wouldn't want to bring it up, but just want to be sure that's deliberate.
 
Indeed. That's why I went with just a general "everything we've realized today". We've had plenty of thread discussions on the issues; hopefully that's sufficient to be clear. We can respond to more specific points later, if necessary.

@Muramasa: So leave off the minor question about Mami's feelings regarding Oriko and Kirika? I can see why we wouldn't want to bring it up, but just want to be sure that's deliberate.

I'm going to assume that's going to be part of our talk with Mami.
 
We can''t assume that we can micro it, though, and even if we can I'm hesitant to just for the fact that it probably be a snaggled-toothed and unpleasant process moreso than usual spats of voting debate >.>

In any case, we can work on that in a bit. We have to approach that from how Mami will be at the time of, which is not how she is now. No point in trying to sort a vote yet on what to say.
 
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This is a case where micro'ing is probably called for rather than just []Apologize, and it's worth micro'ing- I think we can all agree to apologize for dragging her there in the way we did and generally not considering her feelings enough, and promise to change.

I mean that is a thing we all agree on, right?
 
[x] Muramasa

Ok, I'm good with Mura's, except for the niggling bit in the back of my head that's concerned about being sure that Sendai keeps an all-night watch over Akiko and her soul gem. It's a bit difficult to express that in a non-clumsy way, though.
 
This is a case where micro'ing is probably called for rather than just []Apologize, and it's worth micro'ing- I think we can all agree to apologize for dragging her there in the way we did and generally not considering her feelings enough, and promise to change.

I mean that is a thing we all agree on, right?
That it is. And it's also missing the crux of what I said; that microing out what to say is not the same as microing out dialogue. The latter is what I'm a bit hesitant to do, given the option. The first we absolutely should do.
 
We can''t assume that we can micro it, though, and even if we can I'm hesitant to just for the fact that it will be a snaggled-toothed and unpleasant process moreso than usual spats of voting debate >.>

Of course.

Forgive me if I'm a bit slow on the discussion here. I'm on the phone and about ten minutes before I have to clock in for work.
 
Quoting myself because I feel that I should expand on my reasoning for the way I have things layed out as they are.
[] Return home. Make tea. Unwind.
[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
[] Flop onto couch next to Mami; unwind MORE before bed, so you can talk.

The first part of this should be self-explanatory; it's been a long day. A very long day in which we've (almost) gone the way of Artorias, (more than almost) gone the way of Gilgamesh and bulldozed over everyone, (for sure) gone our own special patented form of trauma for Mami. Glorious brain damage!

That's what the tea is for, though it isn't the only part that handle the fact that we need to decompress. Without acting more like Mami's girlfriend than we already are, hence the edit to the latter part.

The reason that I'm keeping the

[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.

bit in as is, is because of what I just stated; we're fucking exhausted.

But wait, Rook! Won't that leave us open to brain damage and saying something wrong?

Well, yes and no. When the day catches up with Mami and us, it is going to do so with a vengence. We aren't going to want to do much talking first thing, and this needs to be said as soon as possible. Hence my leaving it in.

We shouldn't, however, leave it entirely alone. That's why I have this

[] Flop onto couch next to Mami; unwind MORE before bed, so you can talk.

bolded. This gives us time to touch base on... well, basically anything and everything that we can, depending on how Mami is at the time. It also lets us talk to Homura a bit--which we need to do before we sleep, if she's up to it--possibly. This will be where we can do an in-depth vote on the apology, actually talk with Mami.

It just so happens that we get to do it twice on our terms now, instead of the usual back and forth with Mami refusing to actually engage because she is limpet. We get to clear the air, flop a bit, then actually talk to her with this portion of the vote.

I hope this makes more sense.
 
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If we want to micro the apology, maybe list the specific points we want to apologize for:

[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
-[] For taking her for granted
-[] For not giving sufficient thought to, asking for, or listening to her opinions
-[] For dragging her out on our personal crusade
-[] For scaring her with our emotional swings
-[] For worrying her, with respect to our dealings with Oriko
-[] For worrying her due to disregard for our personal safety
-[] For trying to do everything ourselves, even when someone else was clearly better suited (ie: diplomacy)
-[] For not trusting enough, and trying to control too much
-[] etc..
 
Maybe ask Rin if there's anything that you can do before you take off? I'm assuming she'd decline, so it's probably a matter of courtesy for the most part, but just up and taking off without at least offering doesn't sit right with me.

Regardless, I can understand the context, so I'll quit my grousing unless something else comes up.
 
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@Kinematics
Last two points don't add anything at all really- who else was going to handle diplomacy when we did in fact cooperate with Mami there and no one else was available for a lot of the rest of it?

The second's just the same old song and dance of second-guessing more than saying anything useful to Mami IC. This is meant for Mami's sake, after all.

Points 1-7 make sense and are worth saying.
 
If we want to micro the apology, maybe list the specific points we want to apologize for:

[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
-[] For taking her for granted
-[] For not giving sufficient thought to, asking for, or listening to her opinions
-[] For dragging her out on our personal crusade
-[] For scaring her with our emotional swings
-[] For worrying her, with respect to our dealings with Oriko
-[] For worrying her due to disregard for our personal safety
-[] For trying to do everything ourselves, even when someone else was clearly better suited (ie: diplomacy)
-[] For not trusting enough, and trying to control too much
-[] etc..
...

We can start with the most recent one and work our way back?

I think that would be our latest mood swing, from when we suddenly told off the Fukushima girls.


I'm assuming we're not gonna do all of this tonight. We're likely too tired to have a heart to heart and have it stick.

-[] For not trusting enough, and trying to control too much
We kind of do trust her a lot, in a way. We trust her to put our collective ass out of the fire time and time again. We don't trust her health of mind all that much, though there's reasons for that.
 
If we want to micro the apology, maybe list the specific points we want to apologize for:

[] Apologize to Mami over the things you've realized today about how you've been treating her.
-[] For taking her for granted
-[] For not giving sufficient thought to, asking for, or listening to her opinions
-[] For dragging her out on our personal crusade
-[] For scaring her with our emotional swings
-[] For worrying her, with respect to our dealings with Oriko
-[] For worrying her due to disregard for our personal safety
-[] For trying to do everything ourselves, even when someone else was clearly better suited (ie: diplomacy)
-[] For not trusting enough, and trying to control too much
-[] etc..

This would be pretty good for a full apology, yeah


@Kinematics
Last two points don't add anything at all really- who else was going to handle diplomacy when we did in fact cooperate with Mami there and no one else was available for a lot of the rest of it?

The second's just the same old song and dance of second-guessing more than saying anything useful to Mami IC. This is meant for Mami's sake, after all.

Points 1-7 make sense and are worth saying.

Don't agree. This isn't fully about saying useful things, changing how Mami feels about us, or a retrospective analysis of our actions. A big part of apologizing in full is to help Sabrina herself. The whole point is to avoid the consequentialist perspective in the future. I'm ok with going overboard on things we might not have been able to do anything about.
 
My core issues with how we treat Mami and what to apologize for are following:

1. Not a partner.
Mami provides us with place, food, teaching, contacts and combat help. Meanwhile, we mostly provide cleanses and have given our social 'help' with lichbomb. Even ignoring how we're willing to cleanse people for existing, these are not equal, even if you value a lichbomb somewhere close to "life saved".
2. Comparative kindness and agency.
We listen to magical girls we're not as close to more and give them more options.
3. "I know best" actions:
We leave Mami out or direct her at our behest; see Oriko and Sendai situations. You'd think it'd be other way around with veteran who provides.

Huh? Sorry, this sentence doesn't make any sense.
The reason this war occurred was in large part due Akiko's grudge against Ishinomaki, and big concern I have is her going on a crusade when she's able. This addresses her about it when she is better.
When we asked them what sort of schedules would be workable for us to handle said cleansings.
Hm. *rereads*

We did. In my defense, it happened repeatedly and was few updates ago. Anyway, thank you. This is now removed.
It's not like we're going to walk away without saying anything at all. The 'trust in Rin' is a general intent of direction. We let her know that we're leaving things in their hands, and heading home. However that's not something we need to explicitly articulate, here.
I see. I was under the impression that it was entirely internal, not that we're saying that to her.
Though, in that case it shouldn't it be "Trust in Yumi", given she is the leader?
As noted, that's about the most we can do. Plus, leaving a magic blanket? How far away do we have to get before it disappears? Kinda pointless.
Just because things fade and turn to ruin and Earth will burn to ashes as the sun expands to consume it doesn't make it pointless.

Doesn't need to last long, it is a kind gesture until they get her home. I presume 100m, myself.

If it isn't workable, though, I'm sure Mami will say so - it does ask Mami, after all.
Precisely because it isn't necessary.
Yet it was necessary before? Doesn't hurt to maintain with 4 extra words in a two-word sentence.
I think we've already seen instances where it could be dangerous to us. We just haven't tried anything too monumentally stupid.

Fire is the result of an exothermic chemical reaction that produces enough energy to excite photons out of the nuclei to produce light. What we see, and treat as fire, is explicitly energy.
Eh, we've never gotten hurt.

And chemical reaction is quite fine - in glass, the photons are captured and re-emitted by the matter in-between, which is how you can have transparent or glass with different color yet a less dense black paper can be much more opaque. If emitting photons from electrons (not nuclei, those are gamma rays :p) would be matter conversion bomb with grief, we'd be dead already.

It's not our place, it was a big part of the last vote.
She won't know it is grief blanket because it is not a grief blanket.

But it is damn well the result of our actions - like Sakura said, "Oh, now you leave us alone?" - and it is kind of shitty to leave now after breaking her. We certainly didn't leave with Mami, even though she got scared of us too. And while this is nowhere near as bad situation, we reduced our presence to help - not because "not our problem".
 
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