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linkhyrule5 said:
Not arguing b) at all. Of course we want to protect them. But sometimes


you're safer not knowing.

*sigh*

I'm giving up for now. At some point I need to go run a Quest from the PoV of a precog/timetraveler, though, because geez there are some basic Time Travel 101 things people are getting wrong.
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[X] Pick up and read the note.

More like Time Travel ???. Time travel can be handled very differently depending on the setting.

Doctor Who vs Back to the Future vs The Terminator for example.

Because we don't need to let the other's see it anyway.

Also I wonder if we should try and see if we can control a Witch during this time stop. It'll give us time to practice. (assuming we can try and practice in a time stop?)
 
LightMage said:
[X] Pick up and read the note.

More like Time Travel ???. Time travel can be handled very differently depending on the setting.

Doctor Who vs Back to the Future vs The Terminator for example.

Because we don't need to let the other's see it anyway.

Also I wonder if we should try and see if we can control a Witch during this time stop. It'll give us time to practice. (assuming we can try and practice in a time stop?)
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Yes, but there's a way time travel is likely to actually work in real life, which coincidentally happens to be the simplest consistent theory possible.

(Well I shouldn't say that since I haven't actually proved it, but it's definitely simpler than most fantasy stories.)
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Yes, but there's a way time travel is likely to actually work in real life, which coincidentally happens to be the simplest consistent theory possible.

(Well I shouldn't say that since I haven't actually proved it, but it's definitely simpler than most fantasy stories.)
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Yeah I'm going to have to call total Bullshit on this.

Time travel isn't even close to happening in real life. You cannot claim to apply real life time travel rules because there isn't such a thing.
 
inverted_helix said:
Yeah I'm going to have to call total Bullshit on this.

Time travel isn't even close to happening in real life. You cannot claim to apply real life time travel rules because there isn't such a thing.
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If timetravel were to happen in real life, our best models of physics suggest it would happen in the way that time travel happens in the Xeelee Sequence.

While our best models of physics do not strictly rule out time travel, they are most often interpreted in ways that do rule out time travel. Because people like to assume Causality holds.
 
inverted_helix said:
Yeah I'm going to have to call total Bullshit on this.

Time travel isn't even close to happening in real life. You cannot claim to apply real life time travel rules because there isn't such a thing.
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...

Experimental simulation of closed timelike curves

Quantum mechanics near closed timelike lines

Closed Timelike Curves Make Classical and Quantum Computing Equivalent

Causes and Explanations: A Structural-Model Approach (Part I) (See Appendix A.4)

Third down is not behind a paywall, if you would like to research this question yourself.

Just because we can't do it, doesn't mean we don't know how it will most likely work. It's a long way from being, oh, gravity, but we have some very strong clues.

So next time, do your research.

Torgamous said:
Hmm. Your knowledge could be useful. Do you also know how reversal of entropy is likely to work in real life so we can tell the incubators what they're doing wrong?
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No, actually, because I do not yet have my doctorate, I just spent the past year researching time travel in a math/CS/physics cross project.
 
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linkhyrule5 said:
...

Experimental simulation of closed timelike curves

Quantum mechanics near closed timelike lines

Closed Timelike Curves Make Classical and Quantum Computing Equivalent

Causes and Explanations: A Structural-Model Approach (Part I) (See Appendix A.4)

Third down is not behind a paywall, if you would like to research this question yourself.

Just because we can't do it, doesn't mean we don't know how it will most likely work. It's a long way from being, oh, gravity, but we have some very strong clues.

So next time, do your research.
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None of those have sufficient weight of proof to have any bearing. I might as well cut out sheep entrails and judge the future from that for similar accuracy.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
No, actually, because I do not yet have my doctorate, I just spent the past year researching time travel in a math/CS/physics cross project.
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My point is that this quest occurs in a setting that demonstrably does not conform to how we think the world works, and betting people's lives on Oriko's precognition working the way you think it does is dumb and stupid and dumb.
 
Torgamous said:
My point is that this quest occurs in a setting that demonstrably does not conform to how we think the world works, and betting people's lives on Oriko's precognition working the way you think it does is dumb and stupid and dumb.
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... Why?

No matter what we do, we're betting lives on our guess of Oriko's precognition being correct.

If we read that note and change our actions because of it, we're putting Madoka and Sayaka, and their families, at risk.

Also, inverted_helix's question was in reference to the Quest I may or may not start in the future, not this one, so it's completely irrelevant. The only concepts I'm using from all that is that whatever information she has, it's consistent with itself.
 
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linkhyrule5 said:
... Why?

No matter what we do, we're betting lives on our guess of Oriko's precognition being correct.

If we read that note and change our actions because of it, we're putting Madoka and Sayaka, and their families, at risk.

Also, inverted_helix's question was in reference to the Quest I may or may not start in the future, not this one, so it's completely irrelevant. The only concepts I'm using from all that is that whatever information she has, it's consistent with itself.
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I asked no questions of you.

Your idea of not reading the note in faith that her precog will know we didn't read the note so she doesn't kill them anyways is betting their lives on Oriko's precognition being correct.

Also reading these articles they all make it very clear that CTC do not necessarily exist. Which doesn't really indicate a real world time travel theorem to me. Furthermore the time travel we've seen from Homura pretty much directly contradicts CTCs as the medium.
 
Aranfan said:
If timetravel were to happen in real life, our best models of physics suggest it would happen in the way that time travel happens in the Xeelee Sequence.

While our best models of physics do not strictly rule out time travel, they are most often interpreted in ways that do rule out time travel. Because people like to assume Causality holds.
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Fuck causality with an iron pike, we are a magical girl with supernatural powers over grief in a setting that has a girl who time loops, one who can see the future, one who becomes a god, and a mermaid to be.

THE LAWS OF PHYSICS CAN GO FUCK THEMSELVES! HOO RAH!

Heheheheh, but seriously, I fail to give a tin shit at what physics and causality say is possible RE time travel in a setting with magical girls.
 
inverted_helix said:
I asked no questions of you.

Your idea of not reading the note in faith that her precog will know we didn't read the note so she doesn't kill them anyways is betting their lives on Oriko's precognition being correct.

Also reading these articles they all make it very clear that CTC do not necessarily exist. Which doesn't really indicate a real world time travel theorem to me. Furthermore the time travel we've seen from Homura pretty much directly contradicts CTCs as the medium.
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Except Oriko's precog has to be a causal loop or it's useless. Information has to make its way back to Oriko from the future, and it has to be valid, or I wouldn't call it precog at all.

So, uh, it's a timelike curve that's closed.

Also, she has no reason to hurt people if it doesn't change our actions argh.

EDIT: I'm done arguing until the next update. This is far too frustrating.
 
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linkhyrule5 said:
Except Oriko's precog has to be a causal loop or it's useless. Information has to make its way back to Oriko from the future, and it has to be valid, or I wouldn't call it precog at all.
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It has to be valid if everything continues unchanged. But by viewing the future you've already changed it, barring fixed timelines, in which case I guess things shift into parallel timelines.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Except Oriko's precog has to be a causal loop or it's useless. Information has to make its way back to Oriko from the future, and it has to be valid, or I wouldn't call it precog at all.

So, uh, it's a timelike curve that's closed.

Also, she has no reason to hurt people if it doesn't change our actions argh.
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She has a perfectly good reason to hurt people if it doesn't change our current actions because it would influence our future actions.

Also the precog has to be a non loop scenario as if it's a loop then it's impossible to use the precog to generate any effect. Because using precog to see the results of an action choice would lock you into doing that set of actions in order to complete the loop regardless of consequences so would be no better and possibly worse than the person without precog. The ability to precog what the results of one action set would be and then precog another set of actions requires that it not be based off a time loop.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Also, she has no reason to hurt people if it doesn't change our actions argh.
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Sabrina isn't the center of Oriko's world. It's not what her precog is functioning on. As long we we are reactive instead of PROactive, Oriko is going to have the upper fucking hand. She has EVERY REASON TO HURT PEOPLE BECAUSE IT KEEPS US REACTIVE.
 
Correct. Amendment: She will not warn us that she will attempt to hurt someone unless our reaction is likely to suit her plans. Especially if we do anything as predictable as "go save them".
 
Torgamous said:
I think we can agree there. I'm not sure I prefer reacting to attacks rather than threats of attacks, though.
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If she's threatening an attack, the act of our going to rescue them plays into her plans.

If she's actually attacking, it's more likely that rescuing them sabotages her plans. (Though who knows; precog lets you "threaten" people by actually attacking them, knowing that you'll fail and be driven off, but unharmed.)
 
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