Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

Sendai's surrendered and cooperating. Until that changes, we should definitely keep our annoyance with the fact they've got at least two indirect murders and a lot of terrorizing under their belt to a bare minimum- ie a few words.

Yes, they probably deserve a harsher punishment. No, we're not giving it to them because that's not what we're here to do. It'll help nobody to make them suffer or make life even more difficult for them than we have already.

Rin's going to hopefully put an end to this shit and the rest of them are going to be fine upstanding meguca who never register on our radar again like this.

The system excuses what they did to some extent. Not completely, but some. We're not here to judge how much that's the case, we're here to make things better for everyone- including them.

Now if they screw this up...Then they'll have earned their express train to Rant-town and then some.

Akiko will probably be another story.

@Muramasa
Yeah on both counts.

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

EtchedSteel said:
Because really, how can you guys endure being angered and frustrated all the time?

You should try it some time, it's fun.

In all seriousness, though, i think the argument is over all the guilt complex and roleplaying stuff. The long debates can actually be pretty fun, when the rebuttal posts don't go on for a fifth of a page, anyway.

EtchedSteel · Jan 19, 2015

Gadjo said:
You should try it some time, it's fun.

In all seriousness, though, i think the argument is over all the guilt complex and roleplaying stuff. The long debates can actually be pretty fun, when the rebuttal posts don't go on for a fifth of a page, anyway.

I know it is fun sometimes, but I would also like to have a debate that doesn'tdevolve into, say, needless shadowruns or trying to see who's right on the internet.

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

EtchedSteel said:
I know it is fun sometimes, but I would also like to have a debate that doesn'tdevolve into, say, needless shadowruns or trying to see who's right on the internet.

Yeah, the debates get a little too heated from time to time (more frequently in the Sendai arc) depending on who's involved (some posters are more easily angered than others, and others can't just let something drop, god forbid they end up on opposite sides of an argument). Still, I think things will cool down a bit after we're done with this in-game day, as we're pretty much in agreement on what to do there, and potential landmines will seem less deadly outside of tense negotiations, a war, and more negotiations, respectively.

Kinematics · Jan 19, 2015

Ugolino said:
The wording for the Mami conversation seems like it'd make her worry unnecessarily and encourages her to overhear things we may not want her to.

Wording can always be fixed up. It's mainly just to note the suggested handling of Mami from earlier in the thread.

Ugolino said:
The Ishinomaki thing seems like shadowruns...but I guess the off-chance that it's accurate is worth confirming,

It's a bit of shadowruns, but it mainly bugs me because a single question could help clear it up and it's been sitting there for months (not that we really had a chance to ask before this). But it also seems like it could be important now because if it's not just shadowruns, that shifts Sakura's (and by extension, Sendai's) view on what's going on with Akiko. They're more likely to be cooperative with us if they suspect they've been manipulated into all this.

Ugolino said:
The despot line's a bit eh and the leading questions seem a bit too...specific if you're suggesting them all as part of the same vote. While I hate to drag things out...this is one case where we want to probe Akiko and adjust our response when she replies.

I agree that we want to adjust as needed. None of what I wrote are things that must be said, only things that could fit into certain conversation paths. I'm trying to get a feel for what sort of approach we want to use in the conversation, and what sorts of information tools we have available, rather than the vote just being:
[] Talk to Akiko.

Also, part of the despot line is for the purpose of interrogation. Standard tactics are to play to the target's ego, redirect blame, and try to get the target to want to justify themselves to you (among other things that are only somewhat relevant here). There are various ways it could be done; I just put together a basic, unpolished intro line.

Krecart · Jan 19, 2015

Cannongerbil said:
Are emotions a foreign concept to you? How about "treating Sabrina like a human and not a mass of meta gaming concepts"?

Well, yes...sort of, as far as the expression part goes anyways. I'm aware I'm not neuro-typical, though. That's why I asked how it would help. I literally do not understand how being outraged, as opposed to remaining calm, will help us deal with the current situation. It's an actual lack of understanding on my part that I was attempting to fix.

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

@Kinematics
Again, we're better off just asking for alone time with Akiko than the over-intricate approach.

The shadowruns are something we can clear up with a single question, so it's mostly worth the time to confirm it's definitely not the case.

I don't think it'll get through to Akiko.

@Krecart
The main benefit is that it'll help us emphasize our point.

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

Krecart said:
Well, yes...sort of, as far as the expression part goes anyways. I'm aware I'm not neuro-typical, though. That's why I asked how it would help. I literally do not understand how being outraged, as opposed to remaining calm, will help us deal with the current situation. It's an actual lack of understanding on my part that I was attempting to fix.

I think he's just doing some roleplaying, here: Sabrina should be angry at Sendai for what they've done, and he wants us to express that. I'm cool with that, depending on when and how we express it. It would help humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes, I would suppose.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jan 19, 2015

I still think we should tell Yumi everything we know already before starting. Privately, of course. (Or Sakura, but I prefer Yumi I think.)

If we have someone from Sendai in on the various secrets, then they can support us in making the entire conversation properly private, and do so without seeming really fucking shady to the rest of Sendai (this is an issue if we try to do this alone). Plus, they can definitely help get Akiko to a state where she'd be willing to answer questions, or even take the lead on emotionally sensitive items. Finally, we don't end up dropping a fragile Akiko on Sendai as a whole afterwards unprepared.

Basically, we need an inside conspirator here. Badly.

Gadjo said:
I think he's just doing some roleplaying, here: Sabrina should be angry at Sendai for what they've done, and he wants us to express that. I'm cool with that, depending on when and how we express it. It would help humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes, I would suppose.

We can humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes by expressing both consternation and empathy in other ways, though.

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

Gadjo said:
I think he's just doing some roleplaying, here: Sabrina should be angry at Sendai for what they've done, and he wants us to express that. I'm cool with that, depending on when and how we express it. It would help humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes, I would suppose.

Honestly, this mess is on their heads. While Sendai isn't directly responsible for the deaths- that doesn't mean they're not guilty as hell for abetting their unhinged leader in starving girls to death. And because we're helping everyone, they're going to be karma houdinis for that.

If they make it harder to fix- and they haven't done that lately- they deserve to get yelled at.

As opposed to, say, driving them out of the city. Which we're not even going to consider as an option because it's wrong. That's the usual meguca approach for these things, isn't it?

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I still think we should tell Yumi everything we know already before starting. Privately, of course. (Or Sakura, but I prefer Yumi I think.)

If we have someone from Sendai in on the various secrets, then they can support us in making the entire conversation properly private, and do so without seeming really fucking shady to the rest of Sendai (this is an issue if we try to do this alone). Plus, they can definitely help get Akiko to a state where she'd be willing to answer questions, or even take the lead on emotionally sensitive items. Finally, we don't end up dropping a fragile Akiko on Sendai as a whole afterwards unprepared.

Basically, we need an inside conspirator here. Badly.

We can humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes by expressing both consternation and empathy in other ways, though.

There is no case in which witch bombing an unknown near Mami is likely to end well. This is a massive gamble for too little reward and with too much at stake- and in general I don't think we should even CONSIDER the witchbomb outside of a Kyubey-free zone like timestop until we know he's onto us.

Muramasa · Jan 19, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Or more to the point, why is expressing that anger going to stop them torturing?

In my personal opinion, I don't think the Sendai Group fully comprehends the severity of what they've done here. I'm sure on a fundamental level, they realize what they've done is kinda sorta wrong but they don't understand the damage they've done. As for anger... Anger gets points across. Yes, I admit there is something satisfying in venting anger, and there maybe diplomatic solutions that are objectively better (Or not if it turns out Sendai just doesn't get it) but expressing anger in this instance is understandable.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jan 19, 2015

Ugolino said:
There is no case in which witch bombing an unknown near Mami is likely to end well. This is a massive gamble for too little reward and with too much at stake- and in general I don't think we should even CONSIDER the witchbomb outside of a Kyubey-free zone like timestop until we know he's onto us.

Then aren't we already fucked? Because you can bet your ass the conversation with Akiko is going to involve the witchbomb, and that's an even larger risk than someone who is rational and calm.

Kinematics · Jan 19, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
This is a ridiculous quantity of shadowrunning

I'm confused. There's only a single shadowrun in there, that can be nullified with a single question. The rest is psychological warfare.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
a frustrating conversation where we're deliberately vague for no good reasons combined with not seeking proper conversational objectives combined with a needlessly confrontational tone

It's not a conversation; it's just a collection of potential conversation points. There's no way to predict how the conversation will go.

At this point no one has even put up an idea of how we're going to initiate the conversation! What stance, mood, tone? What do we want to say, what do we want to achieve? How are we going to get Akiko to even cooperate in this? Are we doing this alone or with Sendai in the room? If you want to talk to her alone, how are you going to justify that? What are you going to do if they refuse?

I'm just trying to get a conversation started on how to approach the conversation, because this won't be something easily churned out when it's time to come up with proposals.

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Then aren't we already fucked? Because you can bet your ass the conversation with Akiko is going to involve the witchbomb, and that's an even larger risk than someone who is rational and calm.

We aren't bringing up the witchbomb unless the (somewhat plausible) theory seems like its the case, but until we need to confirm to Kyubey eavesdropping that we know about witches- which is a can of worms on its own- then we keep it from everyone who we don't know for a fact knows about it, especially when it might leak to MAMI.

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
We can humanize Sabrina in Sendai's eyes by expressing both consternation and empathy in other ways, though.

Well that's what I mean, really. Ranting at them now? That's just kicking them when they're down, and it'll only breed contempt. Casually pointing out that they have done some terrible things, or using our righteous anger as a rebuttal to Akiko's BS? That could be acceptable, so long as we don't lose our temper. We can be both angry and calm, and we already had one outburst, here.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jan 19, 2015

Ugolino said:
We aren't bringing up the witchbomb unless the (somewhat plausible) theory seems like its the case, but until we need to confirm to Kyubey eavesdropping that we know about witches- which is a can of worms on its own- then we keep it from everyone who we don't know for a fact knows about it, especially when it might leak to MAMI.

I'm not going to intentionally sabotage everything we came here to accomplish out of a microscopic risk that Mami overhears a clearly private conversation. If Kyubey thought he would gain advantage by bombing this group of MGs, then he would have already.

The likelihood that we can talk sense into Akiko alone is incredibly small, given that she seems to view us with great hostility, and that lecturing her about morals has failed already. And you know we already tried dancing around things, right? What are we going to do if we fail this time, confiscate her soul gem permanently? Drop her on Sendai while acknowledging that she's going to be a long-term problem and giving them nothing to solve it?

And that this is Sendai's problem even more than it is ours means the agency argument comes into play. One of them needs a role in this conversation.

Muramasa · Jan 19, 2015

and that getting angry at her has failed already.

Oh? When did we snap at Akiko in any meaningful way?

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

@SynchronizedWritersBlock
What.

No.

Not witchbombing Mami for no reason should be our top priority. The risk is fairly substantial and we tell Kyubey that we know about Witches. We know from canon just how well giving him information about the unknown's motives and knowledge goes.

Kyubey will intervene if the situation benefits him. We need to not make that happen. We need to try to fix Akiko by finding the source of her problems by asking her rather than randomly volunteering dangerous information based on a hunch.

I really don't care about Sendai's agency when it's a toss up between that and resolving the Akiko situation without spreading the witchbomb around like a bad smell. They'll get over not being included, while Mami will take a lot longer to get over being dead. Long term problem for Sendai beats the alternatives, if we need to resort to that.

SynchronizedWritersBlock · Jan 19, 2015

Muramasa said:
Oh? When did we snap at Akiko in any meaningful way?

edited that before you posted

Kinematics · Jan 19, 2015

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
And you know we already tried dancing around things, right?

What is that referring to, exactly? The main thing I remember dancing around was anything revealing Oriko.

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

There are probably worse ideas than dropping the Witchbomb out of the blue on the traumatized, tired, jaded meguca whose teammate might have gone crazy over it (but we can't be sure because we haven't asked her why she did what she did yet)while Mami's around...but very few are coming to mind.

I'd rate it around "wishing for a delicious cake".

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

Ugolino said:
Kyubey will intervene if the situation benefits him. We need to not make that happen. We need to try to fix Akiko by finding the source of her problems by asking her rather than randomly volunteering dangerous information based on a hunch.

Calm down, I'm pretty sure he just means that the conversation will likely include the witchbomb if our theory is correct. No one's saying we should wake her up and witchbomb her.
Also, yeah, we should probably include Sakura in our little mediation session.

Ugolino · Jan 19, 2015

I...don't think that's wise if we are risking the Witchbomb. Keep it to us and Akiko, and we avoid any unwanted complications.

AuraTwilight · Jan 19, 2015

I think involving one of Sendai's members in the Akiko talk is entirely valid, wise, and probably necessary. She's not going to listen to us by ourselves, that's been demonstrated.

Gadjo · Jan 19, 2015

Ugolino said:
I...don't think that's wise if we are risking the Witchbomb. Keep it to us and Akiko, and we avoid any unwanted complications.

I guess we could ask who Akiko wants to be there. For all of her crazyness, she seems to care about her friends, at least.

Edit: By which I mean she probably won't include someone who doesn't already know.

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Doka

*mumble mumble*

Doka

Not for throwing.

Doka

Best Girl

Doka

Best Girl

Doka

The Sorcerer of Smiles

Doka

mumble mumble