So you're proposing snapping at Akiko? I don't think yelling at her will work if we don't know her whole story first.
I'm saying if we need to in order to get through to her. Not as an opening move. Putting emphasis on "what you're doing is wrong" might get through.

@Cannongerbil
Well..Sabrina is the one case where she...is a mass of metagaming concepts that happen to be roughly character-shaped.
 
Honestly I see nothing wrong with Sabrina chewing out Fukushima. I think there was a good deal of overreacting here to Sabrina's rather justified anger.
This. Like, I understand jumping on us for being arrogant and overbearing, but Sabrina isn't a robot. She can show emotions if it's appropriate for the situation.
 
Getting righteously angry at Sendai right now seems like a good way to poison the existing peace agreement. Similarly, we can't expect to get anything out of Akiko if we lead with a rant.

There's a time and a place for such things. Our rant at Fukushima was actually quite well-timed. I'd only support expressing anger at others if it supported other objectives. Right now we basically need to:
- ensure Akiko does not sabotage the fragile peace we have established
- ensure that Sendai has the information they need to support Akiko so that she doesn't go commit suicide by Ishinomaki or witch out

Those two items are both complex and delicate and I can't really see how getting angry could support either of them. Even if Akiko stonewalls. Did we learn nothing from last time?

Do we also need to:
- provide Sendai with additional motivation to change past behavior?
- further express our moral stance on past behavior?

Because if they were just sitting there and plotting at us I'd agree, but fucking Rin is going to take them apart on this the moment we're gone and I'm pretty sure everyone but Akiko is already contrite to varying (perhaps insufficient) degrees.



And everyone else is not also a human being, who also have emotions and act illogically when confronted? Right back at you, buddy.

More to the point, is Sabrina actually frustrated enough to get angry? I'm not.
I'm frustrated with this whole mess...but right now Sendai seems to be fairly reasonable and behaving. If that changes at all, we consider reading them the riot act.
 
I'm personally not mad, and I don't see a purpose in Sabrina acting that way. If we're going to snap, let's do so where it won't jeopardize that thing we've just spent the entire day trying to do. What I'm saying is: blow off that steam later. Now's not the time.
 
I'm personally not mad, and I don't see a purpose in Sabrina acting that way. If we're going to snap, let's do so where it won't jeopardize that thing we've just spent the entire day trying to do. What I'm saying is: blow off that steam later. Now's not the time.

So why aren't you angry at the group that subjected magical girls to torture going on two years for fun and profit?
 
I would like to know who we are supposed to chew out next. It may be time for a few deep breaths now that we've finished with Fukashima.
The only current vote quite clearly has us talking to Akiko next so...

So why aren't you angry at the group that subjected magical girls to torture going on two years for fun and profit?
Honestly, Akiko's mostly to blame there- and there's obviously something very wrong with her. It's negligence and denial for the rest of Sendai and they're relatively repentant. Use our outrage constructively to get the point across, yeah, but just snapping at them's useless.
 
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I am just angry at the girls responsible for the deaths.
Which is pretty much the mercenaries + Akiko for starting this shit.

Inb4 no one died and anyone hurt will make a full and rapid recovery.
 
So why aren't you angry at the group that subjected magical girls to torture going on two years for fun and profit?

I don't see the point in anger. You're not going to be raising the dead with it. What's done is done, it's honestly small potatoes in a 'verse as murderous as PMMM, and anger isn't going to change it. Unless you're using it as a tool to get a point across, like we did with Fukushima, but that doesn't seem to be what anyone's arguing for and I don't think it's particularly wise in this situation. Many of the meguca we meet are going to be guilty of worse (especially if we go off to see the wonderful wizards of Asunaro)

Also: Our powers literally run off of the pain and despair of others. Not sure how much moral ground we're going to have there.
 
@aeqnai
Uhhhh. While I get your point about it not being constructive- even if I don't quite agree- what they did here? Was pretty bad, even factoring in neglect rather than actively supporting it. Worse than anything we saw in the TV series, even. It's just small potatoes compared with "feed a school to familiars" and "become a serial killer", to take two examples from the supplementary media.

Asunaro is a terrible place filled with terrible people- this is widely known. :p

Our powers are based on controlling said pain and despair- taking it away. I don't think that factors into the moral high ground much.
 
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The Akiko conversation is horribly difficult to plan for, because there's so many things that could happen. I'm going to start tossing out lots of little things that I can think of. Most of the conversation points with Akiko are subtle and indirect, to avoid witchbombing the group as a whole.


Once we're down to just us and Sendai, and at a more private location, things I would consider doing:

[] Privately speak with Mami.
-[] Hand her your soul gem.
-[] Inform her that you want her to keep it safe while you talk with Akiko, because you can't be sure of what Akiko might do in her current state of mind, and there's nowhere safer that you can imagine than with her.
-[] However, you still want to keep a telepathic link open so that she can help you on the more awkward conversation bits.

[] Pull Sakura aside for a quick non-telepathic conversation, away from other ears.
-[] You need an answer to one particular question: Did Ishinomaki really call Sendai in for a negotiation, or was that part of the lie they were telling Rin?
--[] If it's a lie, then everything's fine.
--[] If it wasn't a lie, then you are concerned that there might be a third party manipulating things to continue this war — someone who can interfere with or manipulate telepathic communications. Because Ishinomaki believes that Akiko was the one who called to arrange the meeting.

[] Suggest that the Sendai group be the ones to wake Akiko up, without you directly in sight, to help get her to calm down. Once ready, call Sabrina over.

[] Regularly keep an eye on Akiko's soul gem, and cleanse if in danger.

[] If Akiko attacks (since we're not having Mami bind her), defend yourself, but don't do any damage to Akiko; politely ask Rin to fix any damage to you as it occurs. This may possibly let Akiko vent while the rest of her team tries to get her under control, allowing for a slightly more controlled conversation.

[] Questions that you'd like answers to, or miscellaneous comments. Bring up as the conversation permits.
-[] I know that you are better than I am in many respects. Intelligent, skilled, diplomatic, quite capable of dealing with people in almost any situation. An excellent leader by almost any measure. However you made one mistake. Somewhere along the line you let your fears control you, gaining a compulsive obsession that caused you to stop caring about those you hurt. From there, you went from being a leader to being a despot.
-[] I understand you hate Ishinomaki, but 2 years of regular fighting is a bit much for a grudge, particularly in our line of work, and especially for someone as well-controlled as you are. You're not after revenge, you're after something specific. What is it?
-[] I want to ask why you think Ishinomaki killed her, but I think I already know. You needed an answer, and someone gave you one?
-[] You learned something when you chased after her, didn't you? Something you couldn't tell anyone else about, and it's been eating away at you ever since.
-[] Yes, I may possibly know what you know, but the reason it doesn't bother me is not because of my powers, in case you were thinking of being so dismissive.
-[] Of course I'm well aware that there is seemingly no solution to the problem you face. Well, that's not quite true; I know of at least four solutions, but none are the sort that a normal human would actually consider a 'solution'. However I have decent hopes of being able to find a fifth.
-[] Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that you were killing girls while running from your fears.


{*} Four solutions:
1) Madokami
2) Asunaru isolation chamber
3) Tetris
4) Waiting for the Incubators to fill quota and leave the planet
 
Kine...I'm all for nice, long votes...but that's a short novel. :p

Reading through it...

1. The wording for the Mami conversation seems like it'd make her worry unnecessarily and encourages her to overhear things we may not want her to.
2. The Ishinomaki thing seems like shadowruns...but I guess the off-chance that it's accurate is worth confirming,
3. The despot line's a bit eh and the leading questions seem a bit too...specific if you're suggesting them all as part of the same vote. While I hate to drag things out...this is one case where we want to probe Akiko and adjust our response when she replies.
 
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If it wasn't a lie, then you are concerned that there might be a third party manipulating things to continue this war — someone who can interfere with or manipulate telepathic communications. Because Ishinomaki believes that Akiko was the one who called to arrange the meeting.
My problem there would be the whole "someone interfering with telepathy" thing. I'd figure if a third party was involved, just a few points of information here and there to the right people could get both parties to act the way they did. It could still totally be Kyubey, or some particularly evil meguca, but I doubt any actual interference with telepathy was involved.
 
That's not a vote, it's a compilation of everything I could think of relating to what we're going into. We have to give thought to what we could do before we can decide what we will do, and this particular situation is rather messily complex.
 
I don't see the point in anger. You're not going to be raising the dead with it. What's done is done, it's honestly small potatoes in a 'verse as murderous as PMMM, and anger isn't going to change it. Unless you're using it as a tool to get a point across, like we did with Fukushima, but that doesn't seem to be what anyone's arguing for and I don't think it's particularly wise in this situation. Many of the meguca we meet are going to be guilty of worse (especially if we go off to see the wonderful wizards of Asunaro)

Also: Our powers literally run off of the pain and despair of others. Not sure how much moral ground we're going to have there.

...What this tells me is that you're willing to pretend what they did is perfectly okay and that you aren't willing to call them out on some pretty horrific oppression.

You can't fix things by pretending they never happened or by downplaying the severity of their actions.

But you're right, some forms of anger are more constructive then others. I'll advocate for that.
 
The Akiko conversation is horribly difficult to plan for, because there's so many things that could happen. I'm going to start tossing out lots of little things that I can think of. Most of the conversation points with Akiko are subtle and indirect, to avoid witchbombing the group as a whole.


Once we're down to just us and Sendai, and at a more private location, things I would consider doing:

[] Privately speak with Mami.
-[] Hand her your soul gem.
-[] Inform her that you want her to keep it safe while you talk with Akiko, because you can't be sure of what Akiko might do in her current state of mind, and there's nowhere safer that you can imagine than with her.
-[] However, you still want to keep a telepathic link open so that she can help you on the more awkward conversation bits.

[] Pull Sakura aside for a quick non-telepathic conversation, away from other ears.
-[] You need an answer to one particular question: Did Ishinomaki really call Sendai in for a negotiation, or was that part of the lie they were telling Rin?
--[] If it's a lie, then everything's fine.
--[] If it wasn't a lie, then you are concerned that there might be a third party manipulating things to continue this war — someone who can interfere with or manipulate telepathic communications. Because Ishinomaki believes that Akiko was the one who called to arrange the meeting.

[] Suggest that the Sendai group be the ones to wake Akiko up, without you directly in sight, to help get her to calm down. Once ready, call Sabrina over.

[] Regularly keep an eye on Akiko's soul gem, and cleanse if in danger.

[] If Akiko attacks (since we're not having Mami bind her), defend yourself, but don't do any damage to Akiko; politely ask Rin to fix any damage to you as it occurs. This may possibly let Akiko vent while the rest of her team tries to get her under control, allowing for a slightly more controlled conversation.

[] Questions that you'd like answers to, or miscellaneous comments. Bring up as the conversation permits.
-[] I know that you are better than I am in many respects. Intelligent, skilled, diplomatic, quite capable of dealing with people in almost any situation. An excellent leader by almost any measure. However you made one mistake. Somewhere along the line you let your fears control you, gaining a compulsive obsession that caused you to stop caring about those you hurt. From there, you went from being a leader to being a despot.
-[] I understand you hate Ishinomaki, but 2 years of regular fighting is a bit much for a grudge, particularly in our line of work, and especially for someone as well-controlled as you are. You're not after revenge, you're after something specific. What is it?
-[] I want to ask why you think Ishinomaki killed her, but I think I already know. You needed an answer, and someone gave you one?
-[] You learned something when you chased after her, didn't you? Something you couldn't tell anyone else about, and it's been eating away at you ever since.
-[] Yes, I may possibly know what you know, but the reason it doesn't bother me is not because of my powers, in case you were thinking of being so dismissive.
-[] Of course I'm well aware that there is seemingly no solution to the problem you face. Well, that's not quite true; I know of at least four solutions, but none are the sort that a normal human would actually consider a 'solution'. However I have decent hopes of being able to find a fifth.
-[] Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that you were killing girls while running from your fears.


{*} Four solutions:
1) Madokami
2) Asunaru isolation chamber
3) Tetris
4) Waiting for the Incubators to fill quota and leave the planet

This is a ridiculous quantity of shadowrunning combined with a frustrating conversation where we're deliberately vague for no good reasons combined with not seeking proper conversational objectives combined with a needlessly confrontational tone.

And that's before I even get to whether the general approach is good or not.


So why aren't you angry at the group that subjected magical girls to torture going on two years for fun and profit?

I dunno, why aren't you angry at Homura for all the Magical Girls she's killed? Sorry, I know that one isn't fair.

Or more to the point, why is expressing that anger going to stop them torturing?

And if you think keeping calm even when expressing anger might be justified is being an emotionless robot, well, it's something people frequently do in real life. People in this very thread, even. Are we the kind of person who yells at someone for self-satisfaction?
 
This is getting a little heated considering I don't know the exact timing and target of the rant. Why don't you give me an approximation on what you want to say and when you want to say it?

My apologies. This is mostly just me expressing my fustration at the trend of treating Sabrina like an emotionless robot, and the tendency to critisize anything that isn't done to perfect 100% efficiency. I'm not advocating that we yell at the Sendai group for the next two hours, only that her emotional display is perfectly valid given the circumstances and should similar circumstance pop up in the future, she should be allowed to express her anger.

Because, seriously, they came this close to ruining everything we came here to do. It was only dumb luck that this incident resulted in casualties and not corpses. It would be odder of we weren't outraged over that.
 
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If you want an opinion on RE: who you guys feel. I'm relaxed despise all of this.

I think is because I only come here to vote and read the updates between all the natter you guys do day after day. Because really, how can you guys endure being angered and frustrated all the time?
 
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...What this tells me is that you're willing to pretend what they did is perfectly okay and that you aren't willing to call them out on some pretty horrific oppression.

You can't fix things by pretending they never happened or by downplaying the severity of their actions.

But you're right, some forms of anger are more constructive then others. I'll advocate for that.
I just don't want us to completely flip out in the middle of something delicate. It is bad, even if not exactly Hitler, but going full Hulk won't fix the situation alone. And I personally don't like retribution in general. I will admit I might've downplayed it a bit much, but still.
 
If you want an opinion on RE: who you guys feel. I'm relaxed despise all of this.

I think is becaudr I only come here to vote and read the update between all the natter you guys do day aftet day. Because really, how can you guys be frustraded all the time?

Long negotiations suck... That's the only answer I have for you. :(

Wish we could just leave it to Mami while we go off to the side and do SCIENCE! or something.
 
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