Unless we get a truly ridiculous vote shift, we've got the most complex system possible. We'll be innovating like crazy to try to make it work, but unless we get hilariously lucky, we're going to have to be focused on dealing with it for a couple turns. I personally doubt it'll be worth it but it has a lot of potential- both on the up and the down.

The thing I'm most worried about is the scaling system causing our workers to avoid innovation due to the tax complexities of trying something new. If this comes to pass, we'll need to implement something else to compensate for this effect, though I'm not sure what.
 
If we must, perhaps posting bounty for all the solutions to the problems people encounter. Then the department chiefs and shamans can review and reward as appropriate.

Tax write off and leniency is too abstract a concept at this point.

Edit for clarity.
 
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How about a patent system? Innovators get to profit from their work, but since patents only last for about 20 years, they are encouraged to keep improving on and inventing ideas and things.
 
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How about a patent system? Innovators get to profit from their work, but since patents only last for about 20-30 years, they are encouraged to keep improving on and inventing ideas and things.
If a system is so complex that people have trouble doing new things in it, adding more complexity is unlikely to help anyone except those exploiting it.
It would work if we had the administrators to support it, but we likely don't- they're going to be run ragged just trying to deal with the two changes we've voted on.
 
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God no. PLEASE DO NOT COMPLICATE TAX CODE with special exception. Thank you.

How about a patent system? Innovators get to profit from their work, but since patents only last for about 20-30 years, they are encouraged to keep improving on and inventing ideas and things.

This is how you get economic monopolies and deadweight loss, with people spending more on lawyers than actually inventing and innovating.

Not to mention that such a concept is seriously ahead of time.
 
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This is still all so very confusing, but there seems to be some counterpoints to veekie's plan?

So I'll just

[X] Abstain

to reduce bandwagon and allow further discussion between the elders.

Away I go!
 
Didn't the ancient Greeks have something like that?

Wikipedia said:
There is some evidence that some form of patent rights was recognized in Ancient Greece. In 500 BCE, in the Greek city of Sybaris (located in what is now southern Italy), "encouragement was held out to all who should discover any new refinement in luxury, the profits arising from which were secured to the inventor by patent for the space of a year." Athenaeus, writing in the third century CE, cites Phylarchus in saying that in Sybaris exclusive rights were granted for one year to creators of unique culinary dishes.
 
How about we all propose new ideas when we disagree with other people's idea from now on?

It's too negative when ideas are shot down without replacements
.
 
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It doesn't have to be so complicated. It boils down to:

- Someone comes up with something new, something innovative.

- The patent office grants that person exclusive rights to that innovation for a certain period of time, and can profit from there. However, in return, he or she would disclose how it's made, how it works.
 
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The devil is in the details. Scaling and proportion may sound nice, but assessment is hard. It's not just the administrative workload, it's the opaque and arbitrary opportunity for abuse. I'm not sure how to des- y'know, I just read something a little while back which covers this better than I can:
Reading this, and noting that @Academia Nut marked it informative...
[X] Communal ownership, leadership assigned (Status quo)
[X] Flat labour payment
[X] Quota

I obviously don't think thisll change the vote, but i also think that we'll inevitably end up with mid term crises where our people complain about the complexity and we get a chance to change things over; hell, i wouldn't be surprised if we could actually get some stability out of acquiescing to demands to switch to a flat quota and flat labour payment :p
 
I would like to remind everybody that this is the Neolithic.

Me no like King Thog's policy capping mortgage interest tax deduction. Is class warfare punishing success. Me earned me summer cave.
 
It doesn't have to be so complicated. It boils down to:

- Someone comes up with something new, something innovative.

- The patent office grants that person exclusive rights to that innovation for a certain period of time, and can profit from there. However, in return, he or she would disclose how it's made, how it works.

No. This is a very naive view. The patent system's effect on the economy is a shit ton more complicated than that, and its effect on innovation can be very negative.
 
Okay, lets see. Three main points being raised:
-Land abuse - As had been confirmed by AN, what's wrong isn't the land transfer. We do this all the time, and we normally reward the farmers who improve the land

-Scaling rates discouraging innovation - I believe I've already highlighted this previously. It's going to discourage innovation, but less so than our current system, but Flat rates in turn disproportionately rewards the producers of luxuries, as they can trade for, and retain more value than anyone else over time, which is leveragable wealth. Basically it should start cutting somewhat into manpower availability for large projects if we go Flat. No clear superiority here, it depends on whether you think maintaining high availability of public works and avoiding wealth accumulation from creating a merchant prince caste is better or if you want to encourage innovation at the expense of the previous two(noting again that we don't discourage all innovation, as those who devise useful rather than ornamental innovations are still lauded and likely to be hired by the government in excess of their quota)
--Primary goal for me is to prevent cumulative wealth leading to stratfication, as it's what we leverage for a lot of our social stability.

-Administrative difficulty being hell - Also highlighted previously, this would spur further administrative improvements. Currency or more advanced mathematics may result, though it'd no doubt cause pain while we adjust.
I'd argue that it's the exact opposite.

Tax man would prefer flat tax since it's nice and simple. Everyone who consumes pays, end of story. They can do their rounds and be done with it.

The producers would prefer the scaling tax since it's more fair to them. The ones using the most pay the most. It's worse for the ones doing more complex things but better for the ones taking only one or two community resources to do their labour.
Pretty much. Producers and workers greatly prefer to scaling rate, since it automatically adjusts to their needs if say, they break a leg and can't produce as much anymore. The administration would very much rather just claim everything the state needs as a flat quota, which is easy to collect and determine punishment for shortfalls.

This is why Quota + Scaling is the compromise. The state will always claim the bare minimum of what's needed for universal subsistence as a quota, then assess extra rations over that as a scalar.
 
Pretty much. Producers and workers greatly prefer to scaling rate, since it automatically adjusts to their needs if say, they break a leg and can't produce as much anymore. The administration would very much rather just claim everything the state needs as a flat quota, which is easy to collect and determine punishment for shortfalls.

This is why Quota + Scaling is the compromise. The state will always claim the bare minimum of what's needed for universal subsistence as a quota, then assess extra rations over that as a scalar.

This goes pretty well with our culture "You support me when you're good and i'm bad, but when you're bad and i'm good, i will support you"
 
The votes are decided at this moment but one final point.

The merchants are already hereditary and warriors/governors/chiefs are semi-hereditary.

So attempts to cut their wealth and power will without doubts create reactionary feedback. But this feedback can be migrated if we give them something in exchange, like some measure of land ownership.

The power and wealthy blocks have already formed, betting on them staying silent and dormant is too risky.

Just because an idea is popular and good does not mean it's risk free, it's more often the opposite.
 
A communication system we could develop: Talking drums.

It's a bit of a headscratcher on how we would develop it though. See wiki for more information. Another article on talking drum.

Basically, faster than walking/horse communication system based on a drum language developed by West Africans.
 
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The votes are decided at this moment but one final point.

The merchants are already hereditary and warriors/governors/chiefs are semi-hereditary.

So attempts to cut their wealth and power will without doubts create reactionary feedback. But this feedback can be migrated if we give them something in exchange, like some measure of land ownership.

The power and wealthy blocks have already formed, betting on them staying silent and dormant is too risky.

Just because an idea is popular and good does not mean it's risk free, it's more often the opposite.

I think the warriors are pretty fine with it, because they aren't producers, they don't pay taxes because they pay with military service, so i think it's unfounded your assumption about them... so if the military won't get upset, and it's paid directly by the King, i think no chief will even think of going Amok against the King when the military is on his pocket.
 
A communication system we could develop: Talking drums.

It's a bit of a headscratcher on how we would develop it though. See wiki for more information.

Basically, faster than walking/horse communication system based on a drum language developed by West Africans.
Or a whistled language like from the Canary Islands
It enables messages to be exchanged over a distance of up to 5 kilometres.[1]Due to this loud nature, Silbo Gomero is generally used in circumstances of public communication. Messages conveyed could range from event invitations to public information advisories.
 
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If we ever invent a drum language, future archaeologists would be confused and mystified even further.

"Why drums are so important?" or "How the hell were they able to execute complex orders."
 
It doesn't have to be so complicated. It boils down to:

- Someone comes up with something new, something innovative.

- The patent office grants that person exclusive rights to that innovation for a certain period of time, and can profit from there. However, in return, he or she would disclose how it's made, how it works.
In the ideal situation, that's true. However, it runs into all sorts of failure cases. The Cotton Gin was invented dozens of times to get around the patent, minor inconsequential tweaks that nevertheless were enough to count as a different invention. On the other side, there are patents for loading screen mini-games or a
Circular transportation facilitation device.
And if you fix that by making sure your patent-granters are well-educated and well-paid, you now have a class of expensive elites who aren't doing any inventing of their own and instead are just checking over everyone else's work.

The best system I can think of is basically a science grant/exception: you have an idea, you propose it. If the judges think it's worth looking into, you get a universal exemption from paying the value tax but still need to keep track of what you use, and this evaluation will be used as a preliminary assessment of price should your experiment prove successful.
This is liable for abuse, but that's what the panel is for. It's not a good system, but it's the best one I can think of that doesn't require a fourth bureaucracy. (We now will have the Land, Primary Production, and (Non-transferrable goods and resource inputs) bureaucracies)
but Flat rates in turn disproportionately rewards the producers of luxuries
It rewards the producers of items with expensive inputs- while often luxuries, all sorts of infrastructural improvements also fall into this category. However, there is a natural cap in this via the simple fact that expensive inputs won't be produced in large enough quantities for everyone who wants to use them to get, and harmony kicks in pushing people into other jobs.
I won't deny that the scaling is a better system if it works out correctly, but I don't think we have the capability of implementing it in any way except the most basic, where it will hurt as much as it helps. It's almost going capitalist except with government-set prices: something which removes half the upsides of a capitalist system while keeping most of the downsides. Our unit of money is hours of labour dedicated to the state.
 
[X] Quota
[X] Scaling labour payment (???)
[X] Private ownership, communal inheritance (+1 Stability)

Scaling is definitely going to strain the system, but the strain is important. Having payment factor in injuries, old age, sickness, quality of land, and how rich you are is a good idea long-term. It'll make it harder for corruption to crop up, while serving to slow the widening gap between the rich and the poor.

I'm taking private ownership for a few reasons. Our people care deeply about the land...just look at all our civ's traits. Stewards is incredibly deeply seated, as is harmony.

While I wouldn't be opposed to life time assignment, this gives the best personal incentive to improve the land as well as stability (which is nice). I'm aware that some farmers could do damaging practices, but I really doubt they'd do it out of malice (most likely incompetence). If this would happen, then we won't have to worry as it isn't a life time assignment and the land goes back to the state after the own dies or is dismissed.
 
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