Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
ScreenWatcher said:
The lack of more Negaverse Omakes in this thread is driving me insane! Can someone write any?
Maybe the DP's reaction to the anticlimactic fall of their ancient enemy, The ST.
Or their reaction to the Pox outbreak and the big ball of fire in the sky?

We also need an omake index. Just saying.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
we have one on page 1. It's in progress, though.
 
ScreenWatcher said:
The lack of more Negaverse Omakes in this thread is driving me insane! Can someone write any?
Maybe the DP's reaction to the anticlimactic fall of their ancient enemy, The ST.
Or their reaction to the Pox outbreak and the big ball of fire in the sky?

We also need an omake index. Just saying.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

First, we're working on it, but feel free to write one yourself if you think of a good idea.

Second, there is an omake index on the first page, but it looks like AN missed a few.
 
Umi-san said:
It doesn't address the problem but you state it as if it does.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the future, make an argument rather than abusing the Funny rating.

In any case, Academia Nut doesn't tell us how everything works, but we've seen events trigger tech gains before when our civ is presented with a problem - so riding close to the edge with a problem (e.g., by Restoring Order often enough that our civ gets unhappy with it) ought to trigger an event that gives us means to alter how we do things.

Just hoping for a Heroic Administrator to spontaneously figure out a better way on their own isn't likely to happen, given our trait that reduces Heroic Character generation.
 
Candesce said:
In the future, make an argument rather than abusing the Funny rating.

In any case, Academia Nut doesn't tell us how everything works, but we've seen events trigger tech gains before when our civ is presented with a problem - so riding close to the edge with a problem (e.g., by Restoring Order often enough that our civ gets unhappy with it) ought to trigger an event that gives us means to alter how we do things.

Just hoping for a Heroic Administrator to spontaneously figure out a better way on their own isn't likely to happen, given our trait that reduces Heroic Character generation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I use the funny rating when responding would take effort I am loathe to commit.

I would rather not fill our people with hatred and fear in order to reach a better way, nor I do not plan on pursuing a -1 stability rating in order to acquire the opportunity to do so.

We had Heroic chars thrice in a row. It isn't something we should depend on, but it isn't unlikely.
 
Candesce said:
In the future, make an argument rather than abusing the Funny rating.

In any case, Academia Nut doesn't tell us how everything works, but we've seen events trigger tech gains before when our civ is presented with a problem - so riding close to the edge with a problem (e.g., by Restoring Order often enough that our civ gets unhappy with it) ought to trigger an event that gives us means to alter how we do things.

Just hoping for a Heroic Administrator to spontaneously figure out a better way on their own isn't likely to happen, given our trait that reduces Heroic Character generation.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think you both have valid points. This is the core of our Stability issue. We don't have a very effective way to gain Stability, like we do Mysticism with Study Stars or raising Econ with some of our Econ actions.

One nice thing is that since we have TGG now our chance to get a bad result from this upcoming chance is mildly mitigated. Basically with TGG we have a small chance to turn the bad result into a good one. It shifts the average towards the good result. I wonder if we can find a way to improve this?
 
zamin said:
First, we're working on it, but feel free to write one yourself if you think of a good idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh no, i couldn't possible write something. i'm an uninspired, lazy person with zero skill in writing stories.
zamin said:
Second, there is an omake index on the first page, but it looks like AN missed a few.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
What i meant to say was that we need an omake index that is actually updated sometimes, not a new one.
 
BungieONI said:
I can see why people don't want to take Proclaim Glory, the loose +1 Legitimacy that goes nowhere cuts deeply against our optimization grain and thus the instinct is to categorize it as an "Oh shit!" button. But this action has no risk of dropping our Stability and making it worse like Restore Harmony/Restore Order. Plus it can actually get our Stability to 3. It's the only way to get to 3 Stability.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That isn't why I classed it as an "Oh Shit" button. I classified it that way because the actions that raise Art generally have to be mained to do so. The problems with that are in this order:
  1. We have limited festival slots to use. Maining it just to get art is pointless and a waste of both the festival slot and the main action.
  2. Expand Holy Site is useful, yes, but it is expensive, action wise, to use it. Using it just to gain art to proc Proclaim Glory is a waste.
  3. Art patronage, while maining it would produce three art, is so far outside our norm it isn't even funny. Maining it just to proc a Proclaim Glory is a ridiculous cost. Lets summarize those costs real quick:
    • -2 Econ and 1 Main action for Art Patronage
    • -1 Econ, -3 Art, and 1 Main action for Proclaim Glory
    • This yields 1 stability, 1 legitimacy, 2 prestige, and an additional effect for a total cost of -3 Econ and two main actions.
  4. If we ever get our Art to 6 I would fully support a usage of Proclaim Glory, but I want to be able to just mash it as an "OH SHIT" if we ever get into hot water, hence keeping a baseline art of 3. It is our only reliable method of an unconditional +1 stability. So, should we ever dip to -2 or -3 it is something we can push to keep us out of the danger zone. Using it now to push us up to 1 stability, while nice, is also an unacceptable risk without the extra Art for a buffer.
  5. There are better ways to raise stability. Namely megaprojects. The only time we were ever at 3 stability was after finishing the Sacred Forest. It isn't supposed to be an easy stat to raise above neutral, that's why we generally have to balance our stability losses and gains in the mid-turn LoO actions.
Now, I've said this numerous times, but Megaprojects grant stability. They grant it from their completion, and they grant it in the secondary events that stem off their completion. There is no way to raise it that is as easy or beneficial. Lets look at the comparative costs and yields.

Proclaim glory - Art Patronage Combo:
  • Costs:
    • 2 Main actions
    • -3 Econ
  • And Yields:
    • 1 Stability
    • 1 Legitimacy
    • 2 Prestige
    • Additional Effect
A megaproject (lets assume the Garden):
  • Costs:
    • 3 Main Actions (or equivalent)
    • -3 Econ
  • Yields:
    • +1-2 Stability
    • +1-2(or more) Econ (as a shaper project it will increase econ output above and beyond what was required to pay for it.)
    • +1 Mysicism
    • +1 Art
    • Permanent Additional Effect
    • Events proc upon completion of project giving free/low cost actions with additional effects.
Edit: This sort of cost/benefit is entirely different for non engineering/land management projects like Scourge Warding.


Look, my whole point here is managing the cost/benefit of using a main action. Proclaim Glory can be used as an instant stability button, but paying for it is not instant and has similar costs and timeframe as a megaproject. A megaproject takes longer to finish, but the costs are more or less equivalent, and the rewards are so much greater.
 
Last edited:
BungieONI said:
So we can get be at -1 Stability and then get to 1 Stability on this. The bad part is that we can make the situation worse with this action. Going on risk management it is best to use this as a Main at -1 Stability so we get the most benefit out of exploiting it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Technically we could go double Main Restore Order and get an even higher stability rating as long as we are at -1, however if we resort to that we should wait until we have a better admin or a hero admin

Candesce said:
What, precisely, do you find funny about my post?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

ignore him, it's just him being immature
 
pbluekan said:
Art patronage, while maining it would produce three art, is so far outside our norm it isn't even funny. Maining it just to proc a Proclaim Glory is a ridiculous cost. Lets summarize those costs real quick...
  1. There are better ways to raise stability. Namely megaprojects. The only time we were ever at 3 stability was after finishing the Sacred Forest. It isn't supposed to be an easy stat to raise above neutral, that's why we generally have to balance our stability losses and gains in the mid-turn LoO actions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So basically you're comparing a two-Main action which rewards a permanent tech advantage with a 3-6/7 Main Action tech advantage which costs more Econ overall and provides additional effects that are slightly greater than that of Art Patronage? That sounds wasteful if one's goal is solely increasing stability.

godofsmallthings said:
It's in the third row of emoticons
:facepalm:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
okay but is there a way to do it w/ text or will I necessarily need to select from the emoticon tab?
 
pbluekan said:
A megaproject (lets assume the Garden):
  • Costs:
    • 3 Main Actions (or equivalent)
    • -3 Econ
  • Yields:
    • +1-2 Stability
    • +1-2(or more) Econ (as a shaper project it will increase econ output above and beyond what was required to pay for it.)
    • +1 Mysicism
    • +1 Art
    • Permanent Additional Effect
    • Events proc upon completion of project giving free/low cost actions with additional effects.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It is very tempting to try to one-shot the Garden as soon as we have 1 Stability to spend.
 
Umi-san said:
So basically you're comparing a two-Main action which rewards a permanent tech advantage with a 3-6/7 Main Action tech advantage which costs more Econ overall and provides additional effects that are slightly greater than that of Art Patronage? That sounds wasteful if one's goal is solely increasing stability
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No. The shaper projects produce Econ as a result and as secondary effects of their presence set in. Overall, the cost of any given megaproject is far reduced, null, or even positive within a turn or two after it's completion. This is not true for more esoteric projects like Scourge Warding.

My whole point was that megaprojects are a reliable, but slow, way of increasing stability relatively cheaply that also yields numerous secondary benefits. Proclaim Glory/Art Patronage is a reliable way to gain stability instantly, but has relatively high cost and only a few secondary benefits.
 
Last edited:
pbluekan said:
That isn't why I classed it as an "Oh Shit" button. I classified it that way because the actions that raise Art generally have to be mained to do so. The problems with that are in this order:
  1. We have limited festival slots to use. Maining it just to get art is pointless and a waste of both the festival slot and the main action.
  2. Expand Holy Site is useful, yes, but it is expensive, action wise, to use it. Using it just to gain art to proc Proclaim Glory is a waste.
  3. Art patronage, while maining it would produce three art, is so far outside our norm it isn't even funny. Maining it just to proc a Proclaim Glory is a ridiculous cost. Lets summarize those costs real quick:
    • -2 Econ and 1 Main action for Art Patronage
    • -1 Econ, -3 Art, and 1 Main action for Proclaim Glory
    • This yields 1 stability, 1 legitimacy, 2 prestige, and an additional effect for a total cost of -3 Econ and two main actions.
  4. If we ever get our Art to 6 I would fully support a usage of Proclaim Glory, but I want to be able to just mash it as an "OH SHIT" if we ever get into hot water, hence keeping a baseline art of 3. It is our only reliable method of an unconditional +1 stability. So, should we ever dip to -2 or -3 it is something we can push to keep us out of the danger zone. Using it now to push us up to 1 stability, while nice, is also an unacceptable risk without the extra Art for a buffer.
  5. There are better ways to raise stability. Namely megaprojects. The only time we were ever at 3 stability was after finishing the Sacred Forest. It isn't supposed to be an easy stat to raise above neutral, that's why we generally have to balance our stability losses and gains in the mid-turn LoO actions.
Now, I've said this numerous times, but Megaprojects grant stability. They grant it from their completion, and they grant it in the secondary events that stem off their completion. There is no way to raise it that is as easy or beneficial. Lets look at the comparative costs and yields.

Proclaim glory - Art Patronage Combo:
  • Costs:
    • 2 Main actions
    • -3 Econ
  • And Yields:
    • 1 Stability
    • 1 Legitimacy
    • 2 Prestige
    • Additional Effect
A megaproject (lets assume the Garden):
  • Costs:
    • 3 Main Actions (or equivalent)
    • -3 Econ
  • Yields:
    • +1-2 Stability
    • +1-2(or more) Econ (as a shaper project it will increase econ output above and beyond what was required to pay for it.)
    • +1 Mysicism
    • +1 Art
    • Permanent Additional Effect
    • Events proc upon completion of project giving free/low cost actions with additional effects.
Look, my whole point here is managing the cost/benefit of using a main action. Proclaim Glory can be used as an instant stability button, but paying for it is not instant and has similar costs and timeframe as a megaproject. A megaproject takes longer to finish, but the costs are more or less equivalent, and the rewards are so much greater.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You raise a valid point. Let's look at what you said.

1. I was aware of the festival having limited slots and I was not advocating Maining it just to gain Art in order to recoup costs for Proclaim Glory. I was stating a list of actions which give us Art.

2. Basically the same as 1. I figured that into my thought processes.

3. o_O. We as a people/civ like our art. It is not out of norm to take any form of Art patronage, we the players simply haven't in recent history. If that was not what you meant I was not advocating Maining Art Patronage at all, simply listing it as a possible.

4. If we used Proclaim right now as a Main, which I am not advocating, and an Art Patronage secondary we would be at 4 Art in the safe zone. Art Patronage secondaries can increase our Art as we go. We might want to consider getting it above 6. Our sub chiefs might find ways to put it into a positive feedback loop like our diplo is right now.
5. I was looking at basic actions and Megaprojects were not a part of the evaluation. I actually agree with you that they are an awesome way to increase stability. And the more we make the more the bonuses start stacking. We got some really good ones early one that are paying out in the long one.
It's just that we don't have to rely on, and nor should we, megaprojects to get us to 3 Stability. Especially since we have a trait that encourages using Stability on a Megaproject. Don't think most of the playbase is inclined to use that piece of the trait but it is there.

I figure a good way to set ourselves up for a period of high stability is to get to 1 or preferably 2 Stability and then start the megaproject. It will pay out at the end and we get a very nice bundle of things to play with.
As to how to get there [Main] Restore order + [Secondary] Festival if we want to be sure -> [Main] Proclaim Glory + [Secondary] Art Patronage is probably a good way.
 
Last edited:
pbluekan said:
No. The shaper projects produce Econ as a result and as secondary effects of their presence set in. Overall, the cost of any given megaproject is far reduced, null, or even positive within a turn or two after it's completion. This is not true for more esoteric projects like Scourge Warding.

My whole point was that megaprojects are a reliable, but slow, way of increasing stability relatively cheaply that also yields numerous secondary benefits. Proclaim Glory/Art Patronage is a reliable way to gain stability instantly, but has relatively high cost and only a few secondary benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I do not feel that they actually produce an amount satisfactory to recoup the loss of Econ used to create them, unless one considers the options that they might add or other, hidden, benefits. The Econ at the end is nice, as it lets us get off on a better footing, but we are essentially buying the secondary effects.

Proclaim Glory/Art Patronage does not have a relatively high cost. It ultimately costs 2 Econ and 2 Main actions, the same cost as 2/3-2/6 of the progress time needed to create The Garden. It rewards 1 Stability, 1-2 Prestige, and additional effects. If we performed this enough times to reproduce the average time cost of The Garden, 4.5, we would likely result in a similar cumulative amount of rewards as the end result of a megaproject. The unpredictable and cumulative additional effects of a megaproject make this statement uncertain. Regardless, PG/AP is a better way of gaining stability, albeit mathematically inferior to RO (excessively forceful) and EAF (limited in use).

I cannot deny, however, that megaprojects are a reliable, slow way of increasing stability that also yields numerous secondary benefits.

As an aside, I feel that artistic improvements are a field underdeveloped in our culture and, as someone who likes art, this is something I wish to change.
 
Last edited:
Umi-san said:
I do not feel that they actually produce an amount satisfactory to recoup the loss of Econ used to create them, unless one considers the options that they might add or other, hidden, benefits. The Econ at the end is nice, as it lets us get off on a better footing, but we are essentially buying the secondary effects.

Proclaim Glory/Art Patronage does not have a relatively high cost. It ultimately costs 2 Econ and 2 Main actions, the same cost as 2/3-2/6 of the progress time needed to create The Garden. It rewards 1 Stability, 1-2 Prestige, and additional effects. If we performed this enough times to reproduce the average time cost of The Garden, 4.5, we would likely result in a similar cumulative amount of rewards as the end result of a megaproject. The unpredictable and cumulative additional effects of a megaproject make this statement uncertain. Regardless, PG/AP is a better way of gaining stability, albeit mathematically inferior to RO (excessively forceful) and EAF (limited in use).

I cannot deny, however, that megaprojects are a reliable, slow way of increasing stability that also yields numerous secondary benefits.

As an aside, I feel that artistic improvements are a field underdeveloped in our culture and, as someone who likes art, this is something I wish to change.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think you both are missing that we can do Art Patronage as a Secondary. :)

It can ultimately cost -2 Econ a Main action and a Secondary. We end that chain with -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy, possibly +1 Prestige, -1 Art.

I also like the slow burn Megaproject idea.
 
BungieONI said:
I think you both are missing that we can do Art Patronage as a Secondary. :)

It can ultimately cost -2 Econ a Main action and a Secondary. We end that chain with -2 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy, possibly +1 Prestige, -1 Art.

I also like the slow burn Megaproject idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
it's true that we can but I'd rather do it as a main for the rad art tech
 
[X] More boats would allow for easier transit to let them know they are being paid attention to (-2 Econ to build more boats)
[X] Seek some new method of addressing the issue (Significant chance of stability loss, small chance of new innovation)
[X] Leave them be

***

veekie said:
We're now working with proto-Japanese. Logographics for older concepts, Phonographics for common access.
Might settle into purely one, though I suspect the shamans might prefer to use logographics for long term storage.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
pbluekan said:
Proto-phoenecian is more likely IMO, given the general 'vibe' we've seen of the area so far. Not that it really matters.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It could be something like Egyptian hieroglyphs too. They used both semantic logographs and phonemic glyphs together. First, they would spell out the sound with glyphs that would denote one to three consonants (Egyptian hieroglyphs didn't note vowels) then they would follow up with a logograph that would tell the reader something about the semantic meaning of the word.
Like if we were to write "hrs " instead of "horse" (the animal) and contrasting it with "hrs " meaning "hoarse". (That last one's meant to represent a neck, by the way)
 
Oh, oh my ... Do my eyes deceive me?

Can it be?

Is that...?

It is!

TREES! Glorious trees!

We finally planted trees! And there's even talk of doing it again. What a glorious day. Today the northern fishers, tomorrow ... the entire lowland plains!
As for the current vote:
[X] Give them a nudge by inviting in more (-2 Stability, -1 Diplomacy, +4-5 Econ, chance the Dead Priests lose more Stability)

It's not only the right thing to do, it also hurts the Dead Priests. And no one's voting for it. It's a chance to actually get the DP to actually fracture, instead of standing by and waiting until they get back up and start murdering innocents again. It also gets us more Economy, and though we'll need some of it to offset the Stability loss, we'll still come on ahead, and ready for The Garden.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top