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Paths of Civilization

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veekie said:
We...don't? We have a bit more leeway in Economy because we invested a lot of work keeping it positive.
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We have indeed invested a lot of work, hence all the techs. I think I got the impression that we had more leeway from that time when we went down to zero econ (or was it one?) and everyone panicked thinking we'd starve while all that happened was that the graincounters complained that they couldn't maintain an acceptably high buffer crop in storage. There was some speculation afterward that what techs you have in any given area affect what the specific numbers mean. A score of econ 1 for us might be vastly more than an econ 1 for the Spirit talkers. I may be misremembering, of course.

Either way, I'd prefer being at one econ and one mysticism than two econ and zero mysticism and planning on spending both econ.

Edit to clarify.
 
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colah said:
Annexing settlements seems a lot different than taking in refuges with LoO.
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We don't have the ability to defend from the DP raids, though. This is going to get hairy soon and we need to expand martial hard starting next turn.

tryrar said:
Problem is I don't think we can fit any centralization option in next turn, what with needing to expand warriors as a main to get that sweet sweet innovation roll.
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Centralization 3 isn't great, but it's certainly not bad. If the nomads start raiding again next turn we lose an action, and likely will for several turns. We have lots of internal matters that need to be fixed, honestly stability is worse then centralization when LoO is so easily triggered.

We're going to have to do a very delicate balancing act to increase centralization, brute forcing it at the first opportunity isn't going to gain much, sadly.
 
Eri said:
We have indeed, hence all the techs. I think I got the impression that this was the case from that time when we went down to zero econ (or was it one?) and everyone panicked thinking we'd starve while all that happened was that the graincounters complained that they couldn't maintain an acceptably high buffer crop in storage. There was some speculation afterward that what techs you have in any given area affect what the specific numbers mean. A score of econ 1 for us might be vastly more than an econ 1 for the Spirit talkers. I may be misremembering, of course.

Either way, I'd prefer being at one econ and one mysticism than two econ and zero mysticism and planning on spending both econ.
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Remember our MP hasn't completed yet, and I'd wager it being a Mystic focused MP it'll give us bonus Mysticism on completion.
 
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses

You've convinced me
 
bluefur87 said:
Note that trails costs econ, so we need at least econ 7 to make that happen. That said, if all our provinces do econ boosting actions we're likely going to hit that surprisingly fast. Don't know how they'll act though, so. Hmm...

@Academia Nut How many provinces do we have anyways?
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4: Valleyhome, Redshore, Stonepen, Sacred Forest. It's at the bottom of the action list on the update
 
It appears the 2nd secondary is not yet set.

I hope new trails win, as it increase centralization and trade. It would also hopefully contribute to better refuge absorbing if LoO occurs. Really trails/Roads are good for everything.
Adhoc vote count started by VoidZero on Apr 9, 2017 at 3:44 AM, finished with 14955 posts and 36 votes.
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@Academia Nut That reminds me, when we choose the Expand Economy action, do we need to pick a province as a target, or can we simply choose the option and you roll a random province for it to happen in?
 
VoidZero said:
It appears the 2nd secondary is not yet set.

I hope new trails win, as it increase centralization and trade. It would also hopefully contribute to better refuge absorbing if LoO occurs. Really trails/Roads are good for everything.
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Not exactly, it only increase trade(which is represented by Diplomacy) if mained, which represents a focused effort to not only boost internal roads, but build external roads.
 
Triple post with cleaned up tally!

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 589 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
Task: Secondary
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom
No. of Votes: 24
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
No. of Votes: 17
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
No. of Votes: 13
[X] [Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
No. of Votes: 5
[X] [Secondary] Expand Warriors
No. of Votes: 4
[X] [Secondary] New Settlement - Blue stone quarry
No. of Votes: 2
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Harmony
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Metal Miners
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Art Patronage
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Authority
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy
No. of Votes: 1
[X] [Secondary] Restoration of Harmony x2
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 36
 
@Academia Nut
You didn't answer me before (maybe i wrote the wrong way), but i was wondering if we can vote on the titles used by our ruler and their spouse in a mini-turn instead. I even had a great idea that many seemed to like on page 579.
 
veekie said:
And we have the progress bar and costs now!
These are relatively cheap projects!
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Is it time for me to be smug again? It's time for me to be smug again.
Sivantic said:
Actually it's Centralization remember?
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Centralization makes corruption more noticeable (without telling you where it is) as the high chief has more oversight. Administration lets you pinpoint where the corrupt are skimming your system (and thus makes restore harmony more effective as you know who to shake down).

SOME STUFF:
The turn after this one, our governors will begin performing at least 2 but likely no more than 3 secondary actions, using resources higher than 6, or raising economy to 6 in order to enable the former. This means that as long as diplomacy is >6, there is a chance that we will get free (trade missions) from them. Doubling up on trade actions this turn means we could potentially start with 8 next turn, which would allow the chiefs to spend up to 2 actions on trade missions themselves (anticipate 1 at most, northern governor attempting to trade with the nomads to turn them off of raiding us). Otherwise they will probably do economy-increasing actions.

What I pull from this is that next turn we have a very high chance of gaining 1-2 economy automatically in almost every turn, which means we always have a buffer of 1-2 invisible economy. This is fantastic information considering a lot of people want to double-main warriors, or at least seem to.

Currently, the leading votes will have us at these stats next turn:
Double trade:
Diplo 6-8
Econ 3
Martial 4

+0 to N turns of truce with nomads (assumed +2 maximum, skewed towards 1). Implies continuous need to trade in order to prevent war, which basically loses the secondary action to trading anyway.

Trade/Trail:
Diplo 6-7
Econ 2
Martial 4

Centralization boosted to 4, strengthens the effect of all actions slightly (HYPOTHETICAL: If it were me, centralization would add 2-3% chance of success on a 1d100 per point in a purely mechanical sense. Arguably, centralization increases the chance of success of all actions by approximately 10-15% per 5, a mechanically balanced expression of the stat).

Also, why the hell are people voting trade missions with the metal miners? We already have trade with the metal miners.

[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom

Leaves us with 4 economy and a little more leeway in choosing expensive actions. Ultimately, trading with the thunder horse only lessens the risk we get raided next turn, it doesn't eliminate it. Increasing centralization is nice, but not critically important since we've never seen appreciable effect in losing or gaining it, and that particular choice also reduces economic wiggle room the following turn.

My hope is that next turn we can perform a RH main, festival secondary, and either expand warriors, trade with nomads, or expand forest near the nomads (the former to discourage attacking directly and gaining martial, the middle to potentially discourage attacking and gaining diplomacy, the latter to simply make attacking less profitable).

Room exists should a mid-turn threaten legitimacy (so that we can make use of the diplomatically oriented Glory action over RH main), and should the DP roll fantastic crits and put the HK out of the running, there's still econ to double-main warriors before they turn their gaze our way.
 
I've reformatted the actions to make them a bit more readable.

@Academia Nut: There are a few anomolies, like "Build War Carts" not having a main action version and "Expand Action" not being split into main / secondary. I'm not sure if these are deliberate.

Update: Clarified by others that this is deliberate and means main is x2 secondary. Added this to the action information.

Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King]
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects
* M: +1 Econ, additional effects
* used 2 times

Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redshore and Stonepen capitals walled)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -1 Econ, major walls

Build War Carts - This design has completely supplanted use of the older war wagons, but more of them could be useful on flat lands. Further work might also work out how to make the improved version used by Wendtikwos
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial, has chance to improve design
* M: x2 of secondary

Enforce Authority - The power of the king is not to be questioned, and the army can be used to demonstrate that
* S: -1 to 0 Stability, +1-3 Centralization
* M: -1 to 0 Stability, lower odds of Stability loss, +2-3 Centralization
* the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is

Establish Annual Festival - A yearly harvest festival and a planting festival brings entertainment and stability by reminding people of the good things in life, and can help teach newcomers the ways of the People, so perhaps another festival might be of use?
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, chance for additional effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability 2

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* S: +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* M: x2 of secondary
* 4 uses remain before requiring new territory

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort
* S: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled
* M: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory

Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects

Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects

Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects

More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation;
* used 2 times

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: a new settlement within Redcoast (can go north or south), blue stone quarry within Sacred Forest
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken

New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects

Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions
* S: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy
* M: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
* Max 3 Stability; modified by Diplomacy skill

Restoration of Harmony - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. [Harmony+Sacred War] Kicker: Can increase Stability to 3
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill

Sacred Warriors - The Blackbirds have proven effective scouts, spies, and killers, but are there other ways to combine the knowledge of spirits with the skills of a warrior?
* S: -2 Mysticism, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior
* M: -2 Mysticism, +1 Martial, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior

Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Health - High Chief Hewthyun responded quite well to the methods the shamans applied, perhaps more widespread application of these methods might have additional benefits?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success; used 1 time

Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn;
* M: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn

War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile
* S: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo
* M: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point

I've also tried an experiment with splitting them into categories of actions:

Black Soil - Production is now regular and huge amounts of trash are turned to black soil every year, but there's always room for more production [Shapers] [King]
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Econ next turn, additional effects
* M: +1 Econ, additional effects
* used 2 times

Expand Economy - Encourage the growth of food producing activities such as farming, pastures, or fishing, depending on where focus is placed
* S: +1 Econ, potential additional effects
* M: x2 of secondary
* 4 uses remain before requiring new territory

Expand Forests - The People have knowledge of how to regrow and repair forests, which extends to bringing them to places they have never been, with considerable effort
* S: -1 Econ, grows forest, +1 Econ next turn if in settled territory and controlled
* M: -1 Econ, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn if in settled and controlled territory

More Boats - The things are expensive but oh so useful, so having more of them will increase your capacity for trade, travel, and fishing
* S: -2 Econ, +1 Econ and +1 Diplo next turn, other potential effects
* M: -2 Econ, +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ and Diplo next turn, additional effects, tiny chance of innovation;
* used 2 times

New Settlement - There are a few new sites that could have new settlements placed on them: a new settlement within Redcoast (can go north or south), blue stone quarry within Sacred Forest
* S: +1 Econ next turn, increases number of times Expand Econ can be taken
* M: +1 Econ end of turn, increases the number of times Expand Econ can be taken
Build Wall - Long experience with retaining walls has lead to the idea of a settlement wall for protection (Redshore and Stonepen capitals walled)
* S: -1 Econ, minor walls
* M: -1 Econ, major walls

Build War Carts - This design has completely supplanted use of the older war wagons, but more of them could be useful on flat lands. Further work might also work out how to make the improved version used by Wendtikwos
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial, has chance to improve design
* M: x2 of secondary

Expand Warriors - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Martial
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Martial, potential additional effects

More Blackbirds - Elite scouts and woodsmen, the Blackbirds are a potent force, if not exactly mainline fighters. More of them could prove useful
* S: -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial more Blackbirds
* M: -1 Econ, -1 Mysticism, +1 Martial, many more Blackbirds, additional effects

Sacred Warriors - The Blackbirds have proven effective scouts, spies, and killers, but are there other ways to combine the knowledge of spirits with the skills of a warrior?
* S: -2 Mysticism, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior
* M: -2 Mysticism, +1 Martial, gain new type of elite spiritual warrior
Enforce Authority - The power of the king is not to be questioned, and the army can be used to demonstrate that
* S: -1 to 0 Stability, +1-3 Centralization
* M: -1 to 0 Stability, lower odds of Stability loss, +2-3 Centralization
* the more settlements with walls outside of the capital, particularly large walls, the less effective this action is

Establish Annual Festival - A yearly harvest festival and a planting festival brings entertainment and stability by reminding people of the good things in life, and can help teach newcomers the ways of the People, so perhaps another festival might be of use?
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, chance for additional effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Stability, +1 Art, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability 2

Proclaim Glory - A recent innovation from the south, by using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions
* S: -2 Art, +1 Legitimacy
* M: -3 Art, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
* Max 3 Stability; modified by Diplomacy skill

Restoration of Harmony - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People. [Harmony+Sacred War] Kicker: Can increase Stability to 3
* S: Gain -1 to 2 Stability
* M: Roll twice, take best result
* modified by Administrative skill
Expand Holy Sites - The current places dedicated to the spirits and wisdom have accumulated interesting objects and tellers of stories, but they could be made a bit better
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Mysticism
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Mysticism, +1 Art, potential additional effects

Study Forests - The holy site within the sacred forest is the repository of lore on the forests and the things within them, but could the shamans learn more?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Study Health - High Chief Hewthyun responded quite well to the methods the shamans applied, perhaps more widespread application of these methods might have additional benefits?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Survey Lands - Foreigners have discovered strange materials within their lands, are these materials perhaps also found within the lands of the People?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success
* used 1 time
Art Patronage - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
* S: -1 Econ, +2 Art
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Expand Snail Cultivation - While now more reliably grown and harvested, the snail domestication has only managed to hold environmental changes at bay rather than increase production. More investment would increase cultivation
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo
* M: -2 Econ, +2 Diplo, potential additional effects

New Trails - The new coastal settlement is supported mostly by boats and the expansion of the limited trails there would be of great utility
* S: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, other effects
* M: -1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects
Sailing Mission - The new boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Trade Mission - Sending a major caravan to another large group can bring new opportunities and find out more about the outside world
* S: -1 Diplo, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of of turn;
* M: -1 Diplo, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo end of turn, +1-2 Diplo next turn

War Mission - You can send raiding parties against groups that have declared themselves hostile
* S: Potential loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial and Diplo
* M: Probable loss of Martial, can prevent Econ and Diplo damage when being attacked, can damage enemy Martial, Diplo, and Econ, always has a mid-turn decision point
 
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Something to remember is that centralization affects how effective our concerted response to any sudden catastrophes is.
 
Powerofmind said:
Ultimately, trading with the thunder horse only lessens the risk we get raided next turn, it doesn't eliminate it.
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It will extend the peace agreement by 0-3 turns, and we should expect for it to be extended by at least 1 turn considering the king has Heroic Diplomacy. The nomads are a more immediate and pressing threat than the Dead Priests and their raids will undermine all our efforts, including efforts which could go into diminishing the Dead Priests.
 
Andres110 said:
It will extend the peace agreement by 0-3 turns, and we should expect for it to be extended by at least 1 turn considering the king has Heroic Diplomacy. The nomads are a more immediate and pressing threat than the Dead Priests and their raids will undermine all our efforts, including efforts which could go into diminishing the Dead Priests.
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A main trade action would have extended it by 0-3 turns. Like RH, the odds of a better boost are less likely with a secondary. Heroic diplomacy only helps if we can find them, and also requires that the Thunder Horse remain in power, a possibility undercut by the potential emergence of a new nomad hero unit unaffiliated with the clan (which they're about due for any turn now), or simply if the clan loses their grasp with the death of the current head.

Ultimately, it'd be a better choice to either grow forests (and thus make us less profitable and less likely to be raided by being hard to raid) or expand warriors (thus making us a less appealing target to raid at all and reducing the chance of our failure if they opt to anyway).
 
Powerofmind said:
A main trade action would have extended it by 0-3 turns.
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I asked about an action, not a main action, and it was during a time where we only had Secondary actions. The weighting is closer to that being the result of a Secondary, so you'll need something from AN saying that that'll only happen with a Main.

Powerofmind said:
Heroic diplomacy only helps if we can find them,
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Considering we've been trading with the nomads for as long as we've been raided by them, finding them shouldn't be a problem. Seriously, if you and other people want to keep harping on on this point, find something by AN that shows finding them will be any kind of issue so far as Trade Mission is concerned.
 
Powerofmind said:
A main trade action would have extended it by 0-3 turns. Like RH, the odds of a better boost are less likely with a secondary. Heroic diplomacy only helps if we can find them, and also requires that the Thunder Horse remain in power, a possibility undercut by the potential emergence of a new nomad hero unit unaffiliated with the clan (which they're about due for any turn now), or simply if the clan loses their grasp with the death of the current head.

Ultimately, it'd be a better choice to either grow forests (and thus make us less profitable and less likely to be raided by being hard to raid) or expand warriors (thus making us a less appealing target to raid at all and reducing the chance of our failure if they opt to anyway).
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Please reconsider. Remember that the star ax gives them legitimacy, along with their cart. They're very likely to consolidate into a real power block among the nomads for quite some time as a result. If we trade with them we give them dye and such which should reinforce their legitimacy while making them friendly with us.

Again, please reconsider. The call to not raid us will be gone by next turn, so we won't be able to do a trade mission safely then. This is our best shot at stopping the nomads for several turns. Turns which Stonepen can spend building up to be hard to attack or further increasing diplomacy to make it increasingly undesirable to attack us.
 
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