- Location
- Australia
AN said so himself that we're close to overtaking them in total population. In terms of population under centralised authority, we overtook them a long time ago.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
...Yes? You think that's something we're going to remedy in a generation or two?
We could have spent the last dozen turns kicking the Spirit Talkers in the nuts and sending our people to die against their psychotic berserkers. They were a scary growing power once too. Now they're all dead as doornails. Convince us the DP political system is something they can maintain over a distance when anyone with a brain is going to run the hell away as soon as their whip-wielding jackass slavers go to sleep. The Aztecs were a hell of lot more sophisticated than these chuckleheads.
We've already had issues with 'local chiefs' ignoring the central authority and it was probably the closest we've come to failure so far, far surpassing the military threats we've faced. If we make a 'Big Local Chief' of a large area a civil war becomes a much likelier prospect. To the point I'd say it's more threatening than the DPs.
Well gosh, if you aren't prepared for colorful language in response, perhaps you shouldn't make colorful comments about everyone who isn't ready to jump into a big war with people we've never actually fought before. That's not lack of guts or balls, that's common sense.
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Then we need to keep doing it! A settlement at least every three turn, and we balance everything else with whatever we need to research.
...Really?
- Location
- Hell
One of the reasons I want Expand Warriors first is that they still serve as a good baseline for special units as well as being perfectly functional as all-rounders.
Once we have a large army, then we should specialize or we run the risk of falling into the same trap the Spirit Talkers fell into.
Once we have a large army, then we should specialize or we run the risk of falling into the same trap the Spirit Talkers fell into.
Let see....
- We absorb the remnant of a nomad tribe after a war.
- We tricked the TH into fighting the ST, WC, and the DP.
- We absorb some more nomad and former WCer again after a comet.
- We, along with the TH, utterly destroyed the ST. As a reward, we will be unmolested for 1-2 turns.
Of course, we made sure to add some more settlements to absorb all the people we're getting LoO.
- Location
- United States
I'd also like more normal warriors for this reason.
Agreed.
If I put aside my basic skepticism of those who want a Grand Conquest or to Put Down The Great Enemy, better carts are a solid idea. They DO punish those who attack us and get defeated, and they DO make it even harder to raid us. And yeah, the cart technology could have other applications. I just think it's a smart idea to boost our standing army and perhaps fortificatons first, given AN has said that our military is lacking.
- Location
- Australia
Don't forget the fuck-ton amount of food we produce.
AN also said that we're fine when it comes to fighting on our own turf. It's when we leave that home turf that we have troubles. Doing carts first means fixing that problem whereas boosting our numbers and fortifications really doesn't change much. Furthermore, the number of carts we have counts is included in our army strength and any military strength we lack would come from the low number of carts we have first and foremost.
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- Location
- Hell
The thousand other tasks we still need to do?
- Location
- United States
I really want to get a wall up if the next turn allows it.
- Location
- United States
Once the megaproject ends we can expand forests north, wall our southern settlement, and send a trade mission to the metal workers. After that, we can expand our warriors and war carts, both as mains (maybe).The thousand other tasks we still need to do?
- Location
- Hell
Not necessarily? It doesn't really give us more warriors and has us depend on only one type of unit.
All my civ games say that it usually a bad idea >.>
Cursed with Blessings
Cursing with Blessings
The fires burned low as the shaman contingent began to put the finishing touches on their work. The carving had been long and difficult, costing them many precious tools, but now it was coming to a close. Still, there was a finishing touch to be applied: The consecration ceremony. While one of the old men continued to laboriously scratch away at the Star Axe, most were engaged in the task of working out what exactly they were going to be consecrating the axe to.
"Difficult, difficult," the eldest among them sighed as he finished listening to the latest idea. "An axe of this sort; it is powerful, but has no balance to its spirit. Three different symbols of power! Madness, to bind so much in a single weapon. What if it fell into evil hands?" The shamans around him grumbled in agreement. Such an axe was dangerous even in the best of hands. Those here could remember the ravages of the Nomads-certainly none would call any of their hands the 'best'!
"It is meant for a people that understand nothing but power," one of the figures rasped. She, for this shaman was a woman, seemed gnarled like a tree in her advanced age. "How could it be anything else? But perhaps we can channel that power as Feygurthyn intends."
The first shaman nodded at her, acknowledging her point. "You have a plan?"
The woman nodded solemnly. "I do. They wish for us to bless their axe with our spirits? Let us do so, and perhaps help them correct some of their ways."
XXX
Feygurthyn watchednervously from his position next to the Thunder Horse chief as the shaman crafters approached the fire, the newly completed axe wrapped tightly in leather. As the lead shaman approached, he nodded to the guards, who promptly doused the fire, leaving only the full moon to witness their blessing. The old shaman carefully unwrapped the axe, allowing the moonlight to fall across it in such a way as to leave the runes as shadows winding across the head of the axe.
"Chief Wendtikwos, you have asked us to bless your axe with our spirits. We have come here this night to complete that blessing-the blessing of the Crow." He may have been old, but his voice still held the sonorous power of the spirits.
A figure stepped forward, lifting it's head to reveal the mask of the Teacher, the first of the Crow's forms. With a strangely detached voice, it doled out its part of the blessing. "I am the Teacher of all. The Land is mine, and all the wealth it holds. I am the spirit of the Trees to my people, and the spirit of the Horses to yours. Thus is my blessing: May this axe hold the Power of the Land to help its wielder in aid of their home." With that, the Teacher reached out its hand, dipped in precious purple, and highlighted the rune for Horse. Once completed, the Teacher stepped back and bowed its head, becoming anonymous once more.
The next figure then stepped forward, this time revealing the face of the Trickster, is strange lines seeming to crawl and change in the moonlight. Its voice was strange too, seeming to shift in time with an unheard cadence, from the shrill voice of youth to the reedy voice of great age, from the deeper voice of a man to the higher voice of a woman, and everything in between. "I am the Trickster, the decider of fates. I reveal myself to you in the Thunder and in its cleansing light. Mine is the power of Justice, in making all things as they should be. Thus is my blessing: May this axe bring Justice to its wielder, giving Power to those that make things right." Like the other figure, the Trickster stretched out its hand and traced a rune, purple outlining Thunder this time.
As that figure stepped back, the final feathered mass showed its face. The Devourer's countenance was grim, harsh lines accentuating a sharp and jagged beak. It's voice was all too understandable; cold and unfeeling, leaving the listener with a primal chill of fear as it seemed to echo emptily from the beak. "I am the Devourer, the death of all that live. I reveal myself in war and death. My Power is that of Destruction and Honor. Have the second, or the first will come all the more quickly and thoroughly, as all that you have ever done will perish with you. Thus is my blessing: May this axe bring Honor to its wielder in life and death." This time, the hand that reached out seemed almost inhuman. Skeletal, but with the bulging veins of great strength. It drew itself on the rune of the Fist, purple dripping in a languid fashion after the manner of blood.
A hush fell on the plain as the final figure stepped back. The elder shaman motioned Wendtikwos forward, offering him the leather covering and the axe that he had been holding. The great chief took it, starting to smile. Then the three figures stepped forward, surrounding the chief and speaking in eerie unison, their voices blending in an uncomfortable chorus. "I am the Teacher, I am the Trickster, I am the Devourer. But more than that, I am the Crow." As each said their name, they took off the mask that they had been wearing, letting the feathery headdress fall forward to cast their face into shadow and remain anonymous. At the same time, they handed their mask to the next person in line, who would fit them together. By the time the Devourer had all three masks, it was clear that they had been made to be one: The pale blankness of the Teacher became the hazy lines of the Trickster which in turn fed into the jagged lines of the Devourer. Finally, the Devourer handed the mask off to the final figure, one that had seemed to appear out of nothingness, who promptly put it on, showing the united Aspects of the Crow.
"i have taught my people many things, but the first was Unity. Many moving as one-this is the strength of the People. Thus is my Blessing: May this axe bring Harmony to its wielder and his people and give them the Power of a single purpose." With that, the final figure stretched out a single finger, this time not following the rune for many as the others had done with theirs, but rather following a simpler design hidden within that rune, the rune for One. With that, the figure carefully pulled the leather wrapping from underneath the axe, leaving Wendtikwos with the naked weapon in his hands and flashing in the light of the moon with black and purple. The Crow walked away, seeming to almost dissolve into the night in a trail of black feathers, his blessing complete.
Wendtikwos smiled, then raised his axe and howled, a cry of victory! He had the blessings of the spirits now, who could possibly stand against him?
-a secret story of the shaman called The Blessing of Deryn
AN: Before you open the spoiler, how do you think the blessing became a curse for the Nomads and Dead Priests?
The fires burned low as the shaman contingent began to put the finishing touches on their work. The carving had been long and difficult, costing them many precious tools, but now it was coming to a close. Still, there was a finishing touch to be applied: The consecration ceremony. While one of the old men continued to laboriously scratch away at the Star Axe, most were engaged in the task of working out what exactly they were going to be consecrating the axe to.
"Difficult, difficult," the eldest among them sighed as he finished listening to the latest idea. "An axe of this sort; it is powerful, but has no balance to its spirit. Three different symbols of power! Madness, to bind so much in a single weapon. What if it fell into evil hands?" The shamans around him grumbled in agreement. Such an axe was dangerous even in the best of hands. Those here could remember the ravages of the Nomads-certainly none would call any of their hands the 'best'!
"It is meant for a people that understand nothing but power," one of the figures rasped. She, for this shaman was a woman, seemed gnarled like a tree in her advanced age. "How could it be anything else? But perhaps we can channel that power as Feygurthyn intends."
The first shaman nodded at her, acknowledging her point. "You have a plan?"
The woman nodded solemnly. "I do. They wish for us to bless their axe with our spirits? Let us do so, and perhaps help them correct some of their ways."
XXX
Feygurthyn watchednervously from his position next to the Thunder Horse chief as the shaman crafters approached the fire, the newly completed axe wrapped tightly in leather. As the lead shaman approached, he nodded to the guards, who promptly doused the fire, leaving only the full moon to witness their blessing. The old shaman carefully unwrapped the axe, allowing the moonlight to fall across it in such a way as to leave the runes as shadows winding across the head of the axe.
"Chief Wendtikwos, you have asked us to bless your axe with our spirits. We have come here this night to complete that blessing-the blessing of the Crow." He may have been old, but his voice still held the sonorous power of the spirits.
A figure stepped forward, lifting it's head to reveal the mask of the Teacher, the first of the Crow's forms. With a strangely detached voice, it doled out its part of the blessing. "I am the Teacher of all. The Land is mine, and all the wealth it holds. I am the spirit of the Trees to my people, and the spirit of the Horses to yours. Thus is my blessing: May this axe hold the Power of the Land to help its wielder in aid of their home." With that, the Teacher reached out its hand, dipped in precious purple, and highlighted the rune for Horse. Once completed, the Teacher stepped back and bowed its head, becoming anonymous once more.
The next figure then stepped forward, this time revealing the face of the Trickster, is strange lines seeming to crawl and change in the moonlight. Its voice was strange too, seeming to shift in time with an unheard cadence, from the shrill voice of youth to the reedy voice of great age, from the deeper voice of a man to the higher voice of a woman, and everything in between. "I am the Trickster, the decider of fates. I reveal myself to you in the Thunder and in its cleansing light. Mine is the power of Justice, in making all things as they should be. Thus is my blessing: May this axe bring Justice to its wielder, giving Power to those that make things right." Like the other figure, the Trickster stretched out its hand and traced a rune, purple outlining Thunder this time.
As that figure stepped back, the final feathered mass showed its face. The Devourer's countenance was grim, harsh lines accentuating a sharp and jagged beak. It's voice was all too understandable; cold and unfeeling, leaving the listener with a primal chill of fear as it seemed to echo emptily from the beak. "I am the Devourer, the death of all that live. I reveal myself in war and death. My Power is that of Destruction and Honor. Have the second, or the first will come all the more quickly and thoroughly, as all that you have ever done will perish with you. Thus is my blessing: May this axe bring Honor to its wielder in life and death." This time, the hand that reached out seemed almost inhuman. Skeletal, but with the bulging veins of great strength. It drew itself on the rune of the Fist, purple dripping in a languid fashion after the manner of blood.
A hush fell on the plain as the final figure stepped back. The elder shaman motioned Wendtikwos forward, offering him the leather covering and the axe that he had been holding. The great chief took it, starting to smile. Then the three figures stepped forward, surrounding the chief and speaking in eerie unison, their voices blending in an uncomfortable chorus. "I am the Teacher, I am the Trickster, I am the Devourer. But more than that, I am the Crow." As each said their name, they took off the mask that they had been wearing, letting the feathery headdress fall forward to cast their face into shadow and remain anonymous. At the same time, they handed their mask to the next person in line, who would fit them together. By the time the Devourer had all three masks, it was clear that they had been made to be one: The pale blankness of the Teacher became the hazy lines of the Trickster which in turn fed into the jagged lines of the Devourer. Finally, the Devourer handed the mask off to the final figure, one that had seemed to appear out of nothingness, who promptly put it on, showing the united Aspects of the Crow.
"i have taught my people many things, but the first was Unity. Many moving as one-this is the strength of the People. Thus is my Blessing: May this axe bring Harmony to its wielder and his people and give them the Power of a single purpose." With that, the final figure stretched out a single finger, this time not following the rune for many as the others had done with theirs, but rather following a simpler design hidden within that rune, the rune for One. With that, the figure carefully pulled the leather wrapping from underneath the axe, leaving Wendtikwos with the naked weapon in his hands and flashing in the light of the moon with black and purple. The Crow walked away, seeming to almost dissolve into the night in a trail of black feathers, his blessing complete.
Wendtikwos smiled, then raised his axe and howled, a cry of victory! He had the blessings of the spirits now, who could possibly stand against him?
-a secret story of the shaman called The Blessing of Deryn
AN: Before you open the spoiler, how do you think the blessing became a curse for the Nomads and Dead Priests?
The first Blessing is both the simplest and the least likely to do something nasty to the wielder. Simply put it is designed to give someone a boost in power, but only when they're on their home territory. It won't be helpful anywhere else, but it won't actively try to harm its wielder either. A defensive blessing from a defensively minded people. It also invokes the Shapers of the Land trait our people have.
The second blessing is a bit trickier. It is designed to help "bring Justice". Great if you're fighting for good, less so if you're in the middle of doing something evil. If you're doing wrong, it will actually help empower your enemies to right that wrong. And since it was made by us, it has our concepts of right and wrong, not the Nomad's. It invokes our Protective Justice trait, and will preform preemptive strikes where feasible.
The third blessing is the most dangerous of all. Martial power and honor. This might sound like it should be right up the Nomad's alley, but remember, our honor is different from theirs. Our honor has two parts: Humility in life, and a death while fighting for your people. So if you are proud and arrogant while wielding this, it will first attempt to teach you humility-through humiliation-and then it will kill you while you are fighting for your people. You will have honor (our honor) one way or another, even if it has to drag you there kicking and screaming. Or cold and lifeless. This invokes both the Nobility in Humility and Honorable Death traits.
The final blessing is one of Unity. Basically, it will help the wielder unite their people to their purpose. Great if you have a wise ruler. Significantly less so if you have a bad one. Very much a double edged sword. This one is obviously our Harmony trait coming into play.
Get it now? While the axe would be perfectly consecrated for our people, in the hands of someone with the values of the Spirit Talkers or the Nomads, it's almost certain to be bad.
TL;DR: A blessing in one culture may be a curse in another. We made a Paladin's weapon, then gave it to a bunch of Mongols.
Also, a look into my thought process:
Thunder: Trickster: Justice: Spiritual Power
Horse: Teacher: Land: Economic Power
Fist/Power: Devourer: Honor: Martial Power
Many/Uncountable: Crow United: Three are one: Harmony
The second blessing is a bit trickier. It is designed to help "bring Justice". Great if you're fighting for good, less so if you're in the middle of doing something evil. If you're doing wrong, it will actually help empower your enemies to right that wrong. And since it was made by us, it has our concepts of right and wrong, not the Nomad's. It invokes our Protective Justice trait, and will preform preemptive strikes where feasible.
The third blessing is the most dangerous of all. Martial power and honor. This might sound like it should be right up the Nomad's alley, but remember, our honor is different from theirs. Our honor has two parts: Humility in life, and a death while fighting for your people. So if you are proud and arrogant while wielding this, it will first attempt to teach you humility-through humiliation-and then it will kill you while you are fighting for your people. You will have honor (our honor) one way or another, even if it has to drag you there kicking and screaming. Or cold and lifeless. This invokes both the Nobility in Humility and Honorable Death traits.
The final blessing is one of Unity. Basically, it will help the wielder unite their people to their purpose. Great if you have a wise ruler. Significantly less so if you have a bad one. Very much a double edged sword. This one is obviously our Harmony trait coming into play.
Get it now? While the axe would be perfectly consecrated for our people, in the hands of someone with the values of the Spirit Talkers or the Nomads, it's almost certain to be bad.
TL;DR: A blessing in one culture may be a curse in another. We made a Paladin's weapon, then gave it to a bunch of Mongols.
Also, a look into my thought process:
Thunder: Trickster: Justice: Spiritual Power
Horse: Teacher: Land: Economic Power
Fist/Power: Devourer: Honor: Martial Power
Many/Uncountable: Crow United: Three are one: Harmony
ehhh, I would say yes.
Our martial is massively behind, so we're going to take many actions to catch up. There is, however, a way to speed up this process. We have the ability to double up on main actions, making them twice as effective at the cost of a secondary slot. It has to be the same action, however. As such, we can close the gap a lot faster and more efficiently if we double main expand warriors and build carts.
- Location
- Australia
Assuming the progress on the megaproject completes this turn, I think we should do New Trails and More Blackbirds next turn. The former to bump up our Centralisation by connecting Newnet to everyone else, the latter because it gets us more ninjas and half way to unlocking intel missions.
We're still in an age where warrior specialisation isn't really a thing. We'll want to fix that at some point, but as of right now it means that our cart warriors can act as regular, unmounted warriors without difficulty. The only reason we'd use them is for home defence or if we don't have enough carts to give to them, and we already do well enough when it comes to the former.
- Location
- Hell
That also depends on nothing popping up to grab our attention. Which is why I usually just stay out of any discussion attempting to do long term planning.
Nice
I don't view what AN said as 'we're fine'.
We may not be in trouble on the defensive, but we aren't even described as 'really tough' on the defensive much less 'insurmountable' on the defensive. Our edge in terrain just gives us parity. Boosting numbers and fortifications will have a better effect on that than carts will.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Please sauce for the "the only education we give people is sparring" thing. As far as I know, we teach everyone in a semi-formal way with demonstrations.
If it's true and we formally teach our entire nation how to fight, so I don't know how much help an expanded warrior class will be in regards to training. It's possible that since more people would be held to a higher level there might be improvements to our formal education, but I'm uncertain if that's true or likely to occur quickly. The main area of improvement that would result would be in 1) faster teaching methods because there's more pressure and 2) better training methods in how to handle weapons, because it's unlikely that we just hand those out to all the laypeople that are learning.
I think that we should want carts first because of the plank tech that we might get. I would 100% refuse to double main either one of these options -especially More War Carts, oddly-, because there are so many other techs that we could be doing at the same time - like the long-belayed Study Forest, and the not-yet-exhausted Survey Lands and Study Health. Going for a full-on military spree is only useful if we are all certain that we want to invade the DP afterward. Otherwise, since everyone is arguing for an econ race, doing so is unwise.
This whole argument is about the plan to go and make a settlement in the lowlands which will be completely done in two turns.
Unlike the Spirit Talkers, the DP lowlanders don't have lowlanders waiting in the wing as an even scarier growing power. Lol, if people are going to run the hell away when their slavers go to sleep why are the DP still existing? Oh right, because they mutilate people so they can't run but can still work. Do you even read?
We had 1 issue with local chiefs skimming off the top and ignoring a central authority. This was prior to administrative reforms and, IIRC, your involvement in this quest. It was hardly a failure, just a challenge to the political system that we all supported.
"Big Local Chief" is the natural evolution of our hierarchy and political system.
I love your scaremongering in regards to how a civil war is going to occur. It's a refreshing break from the argument that we should make a bridge of settlements extending all the way to the ST River and then create a dam there to choke the DP off. Let's not worry about the DP OR civil war and just stay where we are, until death comes.
We've fought the DP before..? Did you miss half of this thread...? The difference is that then we had allies and now, until and unless the HK pulls together and gains enough power to matter, we don't. If we don't act against the DP, they'll crush the only player who can, the HK, expand their settlements and vassalage relationships across the lowland, and then look toward the hills where that one group of people who attacked them in the dawn of their civilization came from.
- Location
- United States
Putting so much effort in 1 focus could have unforeseen consequences (of the culture variety perhaps). It doesn't necessarily mean a more efficient result, just 2 main actions worth in 1 turn (with a chance at more...though if our high chief has shitty martial I doubt it'll go that well).
Edit: This just occurred to me.
If the ST are gone, is our Honorable Death trait gone too?
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- Location
- Hell
It doesn't really matter if we go from 50 to a 100 War Carts, if the enemy can field 300 in addition to whatever regular warriors they have.
They are much better at this than us and have been doing this long enough to have a large standing army to deal with its neighbors. We need to first match their numbers before we think of giving everyone a chariot.
- Location
- Australia
We only got Nobility in Humility after we blessed the axe. We blessed the axe, then they went south, then the big clusterfuck happened, and our people learnt about humility from that big clusterfuck.
- Location
- United States
@Academia Nut LoO linked the Honorable Death trait from the ST...but they're dead now so do we still have the trait?