You know, fine, DL is okay, maybe even four (4) main DLs in 3 turns is okay, but can we please do something with the people who threatened us with civil war? Like, I am not sure if Intrigue Mission is applicable, but I would like to punish them. @Academia Nut, what would be the best way to do it, in Alyx mind? Is intrigue mission applicable?
 
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Sacred Forest
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] More Warships x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Harbour Redshore
[X] [King's Agenda] Connection
[X] [Merc] Yes

So we give in to the assholes threatening it?

That will make us blackmailable forever. And once we're through with that, we can just about forget about any elves comparisons. Then we'll just be a normal feudal hellhole.

This is more important than territory or megaprojects or trade dominance or really anything. This is, basically, about how good we are as a society. If we're worth having all that territory, all those megaprojects, all that trade dominance. Who cares who has all that if one side is as bad as the other?

What matters is keeping our unique society. Keeping as much equality and social mobility, as much social justice, as still possible.

Even if it means having to fight for it.

Look I hate this but civil war will likely cost us even more of our hard won traits. We could for instance lose symphony thus making future civil wars more likely and validating the notion of war of conquest. Time to bid a fond farewell to our egalitarian roots.
 
That will make us blackmailable forever. And once we're through with that, we can just about forget about any elves comparisons. Then we'll just be a normal feudal hellhole.

When we see mass levy face off against mass levy outside the walls of Redshore, or Blackmouth, or wherever the nucleus of the opposition ends up the aftermath is going to turn us into quite a hellhole as well. No way we're going to get out of a cultural trauma like that the same civ went in. Even if we take a crushing victory we'll see sweeping trait changes I imagine, Symphony being the obvious first pick on the chopping block, PiA not far after.
 
Guys where are you getting the idea that crushing a rebellion is contrary to symphony?

Spiritual Values (4/4)
Joyous Symphony
All have their part to play in this world, be it their interaction with each other, their neighbours, or with the spirits. When all the parts of a group are moving in peaceful accord, the result is greater than the sum of the parts, and transcendental to behold.
Pros: Bonus to collective action, spiritually and ecologically harmonious actions, and to concerted efforts. Gain +1 Stability every time a defensive war non-destructively ends.
Cons: Disharmony is to be corrected, require casus belli to declare war
 
DL does significantly less damage
Not longterm. It changes our society. It changes what we ARE. Oh yes, we don't take superficial damage if we take DL, but we'll... well, we'll become a worse society, simple as that. And preventing that is worth fighting for. Even in the theoretical case we're reduced to the core (which is unlikely). This is bigger than territory or power.
 
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Stallion Pen
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Sacred Shore
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
 
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*looks at PrimalShadow's plan*

Hmmmmmm... proclaim may work given Alyx and Shunmyn. Can you share more of your thoughts on this?

E: Eh actually I'll see you folks later. Got other stuff which is more interesting I need to do.
 
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[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Guild Secondary] More Warships
[X] [King's Agenda] Restoration
 
Not longterm. It changes our society. It changes what we ARE. Oh yes, we don't take superficial damage if we take DL, but we'll... well, we'll become a worse society, simple as that. And preventing that is worth fighting for. Even in the theoretical case we're reduced to the core (which is unlikely). This is bigger than territory or power.

Social collapse or even the trauma of fighting a civil war for the first time in our history will do that too. It's a matter of which you think will do the most damage. I am inclined to believe civil war will.
 
How to get what you want as a patrician:
  • Threaten civil war
If it was just the Particians, we could deal.

But thee are literally no factions that support avoiding DL.

Some that don't care, yes, but none that actually think it's a bad idea.

Hell, the patricians complaints are about the king being tyrannical, not about money. To most, it seems a pretty reasonable idea.

Fighting it will cost us more than we can afford to pay. I'm not willing to kill our civ because people won't accept that something we don't like has become necessary.
 
I really don't see why people are freaking out at the slightest hint of civil war. Frankly, I expected a half dozen civil wars at the least by this point in our country's history- AN has as much as said thst communal land is part of why we haven't had to until now.

Well, now we have to. Sometimes it's the only way to decide things when two sides refuse to agree. And frankly, I have not much doubt that with the yeomen and urban poor onside along with his momma's cavalry Alyx jr will thrash the living fuck out of the patrician's elites.

People are absolutely right that it's human nature for the elites to think they should control what happens on their land. So the hell what? It's human nature to shit outside your house in a gutter. We don't let the poor get away with doing literal crap because they want to, the patricians aren't different.
The thing is, the Patricians and Yeomen want private land, the Priests want it in certain circumstances, Guilds are generally for it, and nobody else cares. (source)

It isn't just Patricians vs the rest of our society; it is half of our society against basically just the players.
 
Social collapse or even the trauma of fighting a civil war for the first time in our history will do that too. It's a matter of which you think will do the most damage. I am inclined to believe civil war will.
not to mention this is probably going to shake the core to its... very core... because it'll be the first REAL conflict in millennium
 
  • TODO
    • How does trade status -> Wealth per turn?
    • Add more detail to the Action list (Actions)
    • Explain Policies better
    • Explain Subordinates and Provinces better
    • Include order of costs/income (Income/Expense Timing)
    • Add a section on connectivity
Stats are presented in the format
Article:
$CURRENT_AMOUNT {$EFFECTIVE_AMOUNT} [$CHANGE_PER_TURN] ($FUTURE_ONE_TIME_CHANGE) / $MAX_AMOUNT


'Overflow': if the amount of a stat exceeds $MAX_AMOUNT, the excess is shifted into one or more of the other stats, representing people choosing to shift their labor to areas in higher demand. The first option listed is the 'preferred' stat, which gets filled first. The second, 'alternate' overflow pathway only operates if the preferred stat and all the stats downstream of it are at their respective $MAX_AMOUNT-s.
  • Martial: labor devoted to conducting military operations
    • Substats include highly specialized units like cavalry and navy
  • Economy: labor devoted to producing food and supporting more specialized activities. Overflows to Wealth or Martial.
    • Sustainable Forests: amount of wood usable before beginning to do environmental damage
    • Expansion: land that could potentially be brought under utilization. In some cases, represents efficiencies that could be implemented.
      • Overcrowding: lower limit of expansion before significant social problems
  • Wealth: labor devoted to producing trade goods. Overflows to Diplomacy or Economy.
    • Categories of goods
      • Bulk (food, lumber, common cloth and pottery)
      • Strategic goods (iron)
      • Luxury (salt, gold, fine cloth and pottery)
      • Cultural (pilgrimage, expertise)
    • Trade statuses: (hoarding, noncompeting), minor, competing, significant, leading, dominating
      • Wealth generation is something like (status # x # of goods at that status # category multiplier?) wealth per turn? May be further impacted by economic and government systems.
  • Diplomacy: labor available to improve / smooth out internal and external relations. Overflows to Culture or Wealth.
    • Intrigue: as diplomacy, focused on covert and taboo issues
  • Culture: labor devoted to producing art. Overflows to Mysticism or Tech.
  • Mysticism: labor devoted to spiritual and philosophical pursuits. Overflows to Culture.
  • Tech: labor devoted to research, development, and highly skilled labor. Overflows to Mysticism.
A stat being at or near $MAX_AMOUNT can have significant and potentially disruptive narrative effects, particularly for Martial.

Prestige: civilization's perception of its own historical importance?? The civ with the highest prestige in a region (granted status 'King of the Hill') gains a per-turn bonus to their Diplomacy stat.

Stability: confidence that those living in a civ have in the competence of its leadership. Progressively lower values represent increased likelihood of things going wrong, such as rebellions. The maximum amount, initially, is 3 (because that's the initial max Legitimacy, see below), while going to -4 represents the end of a civilization as a coherent entity.
Legitimacy: confidence that those living in a civ have that the leadership are those who ought to be leaders. Sets maximum Stability. Initial max is 3.

Centralization: degree of administrative focus on a central government; important to stay balanced (higher values improve disaster resistance but may paralyze the government apparatus with too many issues to handle, while low values can leading to civil strife and establishment of a new, less-centralised government type)
Hierarchy: measure of the number of layers between state heads and peasants (has something to do with tolerating high centralization and administering large areas...?)
Religious Authority: amount of power the spiritual authorities of the land hold, reflected by the degree to which a typical inhabitant adheres to the moral and spiritual values those authorities espouse.

Statuses, Values, and Legacies: modifications to mechanics based on significant events in-story.
  • E.g. 'King of the Hill' Status for having highest prestige regionally, adds Diplomacy per turn but can produce trouble by attracting militaristic action (seeking to gain prestige) or be forced info conflict with another KotH, 'Baby Boom' status resulting from a maximized Economy stat for several turns, 'Golden Age' results from ending two turns in a row with multiple maximized stats and Stability 3+ and gives several stats per-turn bonuses and allows the option to spend stats to purchase special bonuses or innovations.
  • 'Early Iron Bringers' Legacy from discovering iron extremely early allows more material science innovations during Golden Ages
  • Economic and government types are probably best represented as 'statuses' tbh
  • Values tend to result form more narrative and/or long-term actions, e.g. consistently choosing to spend time and resources managing the land led to developing the Personal Stewards of Nature value, consistently taking in refugees promoted the Acceptance value line.
    • Curretly divided into social, honor, and spiritual values, with different numbers of slots for each
  • A society may also have debilitating beliefs/values and harmful statuses/legacies!
Turn mechanics: cycle between 'Main Phase' in which the thread votes for actions from a set list based on the concepts and tech available to the civ, and a 'Midturn' in which the thread votes in response to special events that may arise due to special opportunities, obstacles to what was voted on in the main turn, or due to the effects of Legacies/Statuses/Values. Sometimes the turn will be subdivided even further into multiple phases due to circumstances such as war or other crises.

In some circumstances, stats will get 'refunded' after being spent. This means that at the Main Phase *after* they are spent, that number of the stat is added to the pool.

'Actions' are administrative efforts that can be organized by a civ, the number and impact of which are ultimately determined by the size and complexity of the polity. Can be either Main (full) cost and impact or Secondary (lower, not always exactly half) cost and impact.

There are also various 'Policies', which work in the background passively and can be rearranged using Actions.
  • Basic
    • Expand Econ
    • Study X
  • Infrastructure
    • Buildings
    • Forests
    • Projects: spend actions and stats for one or more progress toward completing a project
      • Megaprojects: special projects that require a lot of effort or otherwise generations to complete which eventually pay out in special rewards.
    • Provinces
    • Settlements
      • True Cities
    • Roads
  • Subordinates (Loyalty [L] describing desire to remain part of the civ and chance of breakaway or rebellion, Dependence [D] describing how much help they need from the central authority and their *ability* to break away or rebel, both out of 5)
    • Colonies - provinces not directly governed by the core, which take their own set of actions and have the ability to grow larger
    • Client States? - foreign nations who have agreed to provide you with privileges or other payment in exchange for protection
    • Free Cities - cities given special privileges regarding administration of their immediate area (Trouble track)
    • Marches - militarily oriented frontiers
    • Mercenary Companies (effectiveness track, representing their martial strength) a slot for military stat points, a group that can be hired out to other polities to earn Wealth or kept at home on payroll for Wealth cost per turn
    • Vassals - foreign territory under your control
    • Trading Posts - small subordinates focused on obtaining trade goods and serving as ports for exploration
Government system limits the set of possible economic systems, determines the rarity of extremely good and extremely bad leadership, sets an effective limit on the size of a civ by applying penalties (to e.g. max centralization) based on size (in terms of provinces, subordinates (prestige-limited?), and cities) sets the base number of actions and policies available to the players, sets the base number of actions and policies available to NPC control, determines how actions and policies are divided up between the players and NPCs, determines the number of cities and subordinatesand may have other special effeccts.

Economic system affects temp econ damage with some formula, may or may not grant exta actions, policies, or wealth generation, and likely has particular circumstances which cause extra problems, such as low Wealth causing instability under the Guild Mercantile system.

Factions are groups of NPCs with meaningful impact on the way a civilization's resources are used and on the course of its development. For example, priests, nobles, and guilds will be common factions, though the specific mix of factions and their relative importance will be heavily context- and history-dependent. Factions have one or more special mechanical effects, as well as

Technologies and concepts serve to define the range of options for actions and policies, to determining how much information about the civ is available to the players, and to provide bonuses or maluses to rolls (e.g. having better military tech makes it easier to win a military conflict)
NB: This is pretty much entirely for my own reference. I know there's a wiki, but this is to force me to go through and actually understand what's happening.
 
Some that don't care, yes, but none that actually think it's a bad idea.
That is true, but that is all that we need, really. Only the Patricians care enough to threaten civil war. If they do start one, then it is against the legitimacy of the king. Our rallying cry won't be "for communal land ownership", it will "Against the Traitors!". And we'll have a martial genius and a PR genius on our side.
 
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