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Paths of Civilization

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Wiadi said:
Okay, even if you're not in favor of destroying the trait entirely, the Storm Ymaryn prove that traits can degrade to lower forms (Pride in Acceptance -> Cosmopolitan Tolerance). Civil war gives us the chance to evolve/devolve the trait in a direction that means this doesn't keep being necessary in future turns.
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Dude, civil wars will not do pleasant things to our traits. We've lost, DL is necessary.

Maybe, maybe it might have been possible in the best case scenario, with our allies busy but strong, no approaching threats, and 2 Genius Martials.

Maybe.

But it's madness to suggest civil war for something AN has stated will be a reoccurring problem for the next millennia. We will just have to bend all our power to making sure we do this right. With an excellent admin at the helm, we have a limited opportunity to make sure we start this right. Combine that with intrigue options and EJ, and we should be able to pull it off.
Thomasfoolery said:
Last HK king we know of got elected by the priests.

Anyway we 100% need the priests to beef up at this point. Because the patricians will soon no longer simply be the ruling class of the Ymaryn state, but instead be wanting to be singular heads of their own private domains, and since they'll all be wanting to do it we can't rely on them to check eachother.
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Dont play coy, you know what I meant. The suggested 'cure' would be tens of times worse than the disease.

Well, unless you're fine with a theocracy. But I find our values of good governance by wise leaders to be more important than having to finally bend before reality.
 
Eh, screw it. @BungieONI Forget the EE stuff. It's not worth drumming up the votes even if it's better.

[X] PrimalShadow

Until further notice, I can't be bothered to push for anything, so my vote goes to you, Shadow. This vote is going to be absolutely vicious, like all ideological fights. :V
 
Citino said:
Dont play coy, you know what I meant. The suggested 'cure' would be tens of times worse than the disease.
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The priests a a pathetic force right now, look at their faction power, compare it to the patricians, and say again they don't need to be boosted. Especially with the Patricians engaging in a runaway power spiral now that they've got DL unlocked.

They're the only way we have any hope of maintaining much of our cultural practices in all the privates domains that are going to be springing up.
 
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[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers

Civil War certainly isn't harmonious

Now that we've got more defensible borders I think we should cut military action to a bare Elvish-asshole-type minimum

If our factions are pushing bad things then let's turn inward and try every medicine for Becoming Good

Until then- worse things than Distribute Land have happened. Let us look forward to how newer systems can further the spirit of Peoplehood. Are we not Philosopher Kings
 
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Rakuhn said:
We uh, might want to consolidate the free city votes. If the current vote wins, we are going to be making three of them. Unfortunately, the current runner up is support poor.
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Look on the bright side, I'm pretty sure Lower Valleyhome hasn't activated yet since then we'd have nine actions. The vote's invalid.
8bitBob said:
It's not about wanting more. We're basically gonna hit the limit now anyway. We want our cities to stop switching on and off constantly though.
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Building Block Housing in Blackmouth won't do that whether it's free or not. That ship sailed when we built Block Housing in a free city. Blackmouth now needs to be a Free City to counter the growing influence of Redshore, and frankly it's the best choice for it.
 
PrimalShadow said:
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Guild Secondary] More Warships

These five are necessary for our quests.

[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
These help our Legitimacy/Stability, and make sure the DL goes smoothly.

[X] Integrate Colony - Txolla
Now that we have a higher EE cap, we need the extra stats.

[X] [King's Agenda] Connection
[X] [Merc] Yes
For our agenda, get our Factions working on Harbors, maybe a GP, roads...
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You are missing the [Secondary] before the integration.

[X] PrimalShadow
 
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Sacred Forest
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] More Warships x2
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Harbour Redshore
[X] [King's Agenda] Connection
[X] [Merc] Yes
 
MrGazzer said:
Lets just stop being stubborn about this and bite the bullet.

We lasted well over 4000 years without the idea of but we're up against human nature here. It's emotional attachments we're fighting.

Hell, we fucking do it for seats in schools.

Name one classroom without assigned seating that didn't end up with everyone sitting in the same damned seat they always sit in. Because, despite being property of the school in question, it is "Your Spot."

"I live here, I work here, my family has been here for years. This place is mine."


Of course they're fighting us. You'd do the same. You aren't some perfectly rational creature. You're still attached to your childhood home, though someone else lives there.
Some stranger you don't trust with Your yard Your doors Your walls Your windows.
They don't know the days spent here. They don't know the memories made. The sweat and tears you poured into it.

It may be their house. But that's your Home.

I'd fight for my home, I know I would.

If we fight this here, in as little as a hundred years, it'll pop up again.

So yeah, maybe you crush it. For now.

But it'll be back.

Again.

And again.

I'm tired.

I'm just...tired

Aren't you?

[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Guild Secondary] Build Harbour Redshore
[X] [King's Agenda] Urban Infrastructure
[X] [Merc] Yes
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And that would be fine...if it was all about emotional weight.

This is about gaining power over others. This is about skirting around our rules to implement their own.


Being able to sit in your own seat harms no one. Getting increasingly richer and allowed more power than your peers does.

Citino said:
Dude, civil wars will not do pleasant things to our traits. We've lost, DL is necessary.

Maybe, maybe it might have been possible in the best case scenario, with our allies busy but strong, no approaching threats, and 2 Genius Martials.

Maybe.

But it's madness to suggest civil war for something AN has stated will be a reoccurring problem for the next millennia. We will just have to bend all our power to making sure we do this right. With an excellent admin at the helm, we have a limited opportunity to make sure we start this right. Combine that with intrigue options and EJ, and we should be able to pull it off.
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It was a problem we already had an answer to. A way to resolve peacefully. We can reach that point again, especially since the trait is so new.
 
ScreenWatcher said:
Civil war with genius martial at our side.
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Would he be at "our" side?

I'm still thinking about whether civil war would count as an acceptable loss, but it's worth noting that this is not a given.

Godwinson said:
Well, that's some bloody transparent horseshit. Gotta love quantum ogres.
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Whatever we do decide to do, I will say that this dilemma is absolutely the result of our choices.

We have consistently both empowered our patricians and yet infuriated them. We have stuck ourselves in this situation, and it is up to us to determine how best to resolve it.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Ghostdevil on Dec 4, 2017 at 2:12 AM, finished with 173 posts and 31 votes.
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[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Guild Secondary] More Warships
[X] [King's Agenda] Restoration
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Lower Valleyhome
[X] [Secondary] Support Urban Poor
[X] [Secondary] More Warships
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Stallion Pen
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Blackmouth
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians)
[X] [Secondary] Launch Intrigue Mission (Patricians) x2
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City - Sacred Shore
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] No Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory

It's civil war time.
 
mori said:
Civil War certainly isn't harmonious
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So we give in to the assholes threatening it?

That will make us blackmailable forever. And once we're through with that, we can just about forget about any elves comparisons. Then we'll just be a normal feudal hellhole.

This is more important than territory or megaprojects or trade dominance or really anything. This is, basically, about how good we are as a society. If we're worth having all that territory, all those megaprojects, all that trade dominance. Who cares who has all that if one side is as bad as the other?

What matters is keeping our unique society. Keeping as much equality and social mobility, as much social justice, as still possible.

Even if it means having to fight for it.
 
sidestory said:
It's not, not if we actively work to prevent it, which we can, you know, as we see with the concept of martial wealth, which was replaced with personal connections, we can do the same here
And that is not a 'painful social reform', as you try to woefully paint it
It's our ruling class throwing a tantrum and wanting more power then they already have and thus we should respond like a good parent and show them that shit like that is a no go, they want their land and threat with a civil war, well they get their civil war and a threat of death right along with it
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It isn't a solution, because there is no problem(land ownership) to begin with. Georgism is a solution to land ownership, because it tax land in such a way that is equitable and efficient for society.

And georgism can't be a bulwark value in Ymaryn society without the concept of private property.
 
Fooolks. We do not need manual Harbour and Warships if we do Sea Control. And with pirates, we really need to rule the waves.
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land
[X] [Secondary] Distribute Land x2
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers
[X] [Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers x2
[X] [Secondary] Proclaim Glory
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Sacred Forest
[X] [Secondary] Found Free City Blackmouth
[X] Yes

[X] [King's Agenda] Sea Control
[X] [King's Agenda] Connection
[X] [King's Agenda] Rural Infrastructure
 
I really don't see why people are freaking out at the slightest hint of civil war. Frankly, I expected a half dozen civil wars at the least by this point in our country's history- AN has as much as said thst communal land is part of why we haven't had to until now.

Well, now we have to. Sometimes it's the only way to decide things when two sides refuse to agree. And frankly, I have not much doubt that with the yeomen and urban poor onside along with his momma's cavalry Alyx jr will thrash the living fuck out of the patrician's elites.

People are right that it's human nature for the elites to think they should control what happens on land they've lived on for ages. So the hell what? It's human nature to shit outside your house in a gutter. We don't let the poor get away with doing literal crap because they want to, the patricians aren't different.
 
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Also, for those suggesting civil war, how do you plan to not explode? We are likely to lose the West, so we take a stab hit, or several there. We also risk losing our new Cap, so that'll be fun. All while we lose stability and legitimacy fighting a damned civil war.

At the very best, we crawl out of a civil war with tens of thousands dead, tons of repairs to our infrastructure necessary, and several colonies lost, likely forcing a reclamation CB on us, which could throw us into a war against the SY.

DL does significantly less damage, especially if we do it right with an excellent admin on hand.
 
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