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Paths of Civilization

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HeWhoAdds said:
Alright, can we talk for a minute about how cool the Salt Sea People sound? I want to learn so much more about them! An ancient religious society? Do they have their own religious a la mylathadism? What does it look like? How does it fit in with their survival strategy against the nomads?

We should set up a Trading Post over there. So. Cool.
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We already crushed a group like that and assimilated the remnants. We already know that the Salt Sea People take(or used to take) tribute from the surrounding minor peoples in order to feed themselves. Sounds like another iteration of the Spirit Talkers. I wonder if they are as old?
 
McLuvin said:
Well we took the oak route, and we are now the strongest polity in the world whilst they cannot even rule their own people or make their own infrastructure so.....
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I'm not convinced we're the strongest. If we had ten turns without crisises tondistract is we could become so, but I doubt we have the luxury of that much time.

Particularly as we're rushing after shinies rather than dealing with the fact that we're currently on fire.

Worse, we're rushing shinies in a way that is likely to reduce our long term returns, as we need to have more fast ships and more horse couriers before we unlock our next government tier to get a high Max Cent result, and it looks like we'll have no chance to get them.
 
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Alratan said:
I'm not convinced we're the strongest.
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I'm pretty sure the Saffron Isles are currently stronger than us.

Speccing for long-term survivability costs in terms of short-term strength spikes, and since we're more than a little porous when it comes to tech, we're going to have powerful if short-lived nations popping up near us for basically as long as war is profitable.

Which means we really need fortifications and a strongly-binding shared culture.
 
Alratan said:
I'm not convinced we're the strongest. If we had ten turns without crisises tondistract is we could become so, but I doubt we have the luxury of that much time.

Particularly as we're rushing after shinies rather than dealing with the fact that we're currently on fire.

Worse, we're rushing shinies in a way that is likely to reduce our long term returns, as we need to have more fast ships and more horse couriers before we unlock our next government tier to get a high Max Cent result, and it looks like we'll have no chance to get them.
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If you mean megaprojects, then there is no "shiny" megaprojects, only timing issues.
 
Candesce said:
I'm pretty sure the Saffron Isles are currently stronger than us.
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I'm pretty sure they can't summon a quarter million troops in high quality equipment and maintain those numbers for over a decade whilst not collapsing from the effort, nor can they field thousands of near medium Cavalry horse archers with sabres and nor do they have the majority of trade along the Salt and Amber roads as well as the Black Sea by the balls.

Yeah. Ymar has the highest population density in the world as well. So Safron Isles aren't on our level yet.

We're King of the Hill mate. Accept no substitutes.
 
McLuvin said:
I'm pretty sure they can't summon a quarter million troops in high quality equipment and maintain those numbers for over a decade whilst not collapsing from the effort, nor can they field thousands of near medium Cavalry horse archers with sabres and nor do they have the majority of trade along the Salt and Amber roads as well as the Black Sea by the balls.

Yeah. Ymar has the highest population density in the world as well. So Safron Isles aren't on our level yet.

We're King of the Hill mate. Accept no substitutes.
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We have nowhere near the naval capacity of the Saffron Islanders, which will be more important if we want to contest them at the sea and protect Freehills(should they need protecting).
 
Kiba said:
If you mean megaprojects, then there is no "shiny" megaprojects, only timing issues.
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There is a strong push to pay to have three megaprojects active simultaneously. Some people are even trying for four. While we have Megaproject support active so the King's Province actions will empty our stats, and are almost completely dependent on Overflow into tech to keep our economy working. While we have our factions taking loads of action, with one of our factions willing to burn our civilisation down to get what they want, and another prepared to cause economic collapse if they don't.

We're literally on fire here, and people are so impatient to get their favourite megaprojects started that they can't wait a single turn so we can put even one of the fires out. We'll still be in a Gilded Age next turn (and have one Stability).

We could easily be completely crippled next turn or the turn after, right when Alyx dies and the Saffron Isles come calling.
 
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McLuvin said:
I'm pretty sure they can't summon a quarter million troops in high quality equipment and maintain those numbers for over a decade whilst not collapsing from the effort, nor can they field thousands of near medium Cavalry horse archers with sabres and nor do they have the majority of trade along the Salt and Amber roads as well as the Black Sea by the balls.

Yeah. Ymar has the highest population density in the world as well. So Safron Isles aren't on our level yet.

We're King of the Hill mate. Accept no substitutes.
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If they managed to conqueror enough, density won't really matter.

It's dangerous to assume we are the strongest when AN has hinted the Saffron Islands are a danger to us.
 
Janadus said:
I'm aware. Boundary Passage is cheap in resources, expensive in actions, and excellent (albeit indirectly) for administration.

I'm explicitly trading a few less actions next turn for more saved actions later.


In abstract, it's very stat-efficient, but when you compare it to the other options it falls a little flat.

The problem is that +1 Loyalty to our subordinates is nice, but it's only a patch-job on a larger problem. The root issue is that we're trying to juggle a lot of subordinates at once on a hilariously inefficent system. We have other options that address that systemic inefficiency, such as subordinate reform to make management easier, Boundary Passage to make reaching some of them easier, or Diplo Hero / Genius to try and overhaul everything.

And if we decide not to do anything for Diplo, that's a bit of a waste, IMO, but at least we have lots of Wealth overflow to work with.
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We do want to have Blackmouth and Sacred Forest so we can Free them next turn without having to spend an action supporting the Urban poor. Given your reasoning, would you be willing to approval vote for a Diplo hero or genius?
 
McLuvin said:
I'm pretty sure they can't summon a quarter million troops in high quality equipment and maintain those numbers for over a decade whilst not collapsing from the effort, nor can they field thousands of near medium Cavalry horse archers with sabres and nor do they have the majority of trade along the Salt and Amber roads as well as the Black Sea by the balls.

Yeah. Ymar has the highest population density in the world as well. So Safron Isles aren't on our level yet.

We're King of the Hill mate. Accept no substitutes.
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None of that strength matters if we can't actually use it.
Taking Mass Levy into foreign lands would probably cripple us from a supply standpoint, and leaving them up for even a turn hollows out our cities.

It doesn't matter if we can beat them while using all of our strength, if we can't actually leverage any of that strength in a war with them.
 
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HeWhoAdds said:
Alright, can we talk for a minute about how cool the Salt Sea People sound? I want to learn so much more about them! An ancient religious society? Do they have their own religious a la mylathadism? What does it look like? How does it fit in with their survival strategy against the nomads?
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They seem to basically be not!Tibet.

McLuvin said:
Their survival strategy sounds like 'bend over at the smallest provocation'. Which really isn't that cool...
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Not quite. They seem to be more like the HK - surviving in an isolated mountain enclave, surrounded by hostile peoples (the nomads, in their case), with a very durable order based on religion.

Keep in mind they don't live AT the salt sea, but in mountains NEAR it. So who controls the Salt Sea is of little importance to them, really. I figure that they boosted their RA something fierce, and now survive on a combination of their inaccessible homeland and mystic legitimacy: They grant vast sounding titles like "Protector of the Sacred Salt", so they'll be left alone, and the peoples around them go along with that because their titles have legitimacy and well, it's less of a hassle than trying to storm their mountain homes.
 
Candesce said:
Exactly which subordinates do you expect to be easier to reach, after building this? It's a north-south passage through the boundary hills.
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Sorry, I probably should have said it lets our subordinates reach each other, with reinforcements, trade, and messages. I do think it probably also lets us access the north from the core more easily, but I can't prove that and so won't argue it.

What it indisputably provides is a blueprint / proving grounds for roads through rough terrain.

And you left out the value of a Cultural Hero to keeping our subordinates loyal. Stories that make people feel like they're part of a great nation make them slower to want to go their own way.
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The problem with Heroes is that they all die.

I have no doubt that a Cultural Hero would raise loyalty and keep our subordinates perfectly in line. But once they died, unless they set up a system to continue past their death, we'd be back at square one. Sure, we'd have higher Loyalty to work with, maybe even a legacy if we got very lucky, but the problem inherent to the system would remain. And once Loyalty drops, as it always does, we'd be back at square one eventually.

If people think we can handle the cost of the Cultural Hero, and are willing to adjust next turns' plans and our policies accordingly then I'm willing to do it. As it stands, though, we are reliant on Culture overflow to prop up Tech. I am reluctant to burn both Culture and Mysticism while spending a lot of Tech continuously, which is the situation we're in right now.
 
Janadus said:
Sorry, I probably should have said it lets our subordinates reach each other, with reinforcements, trade, and messages. I do think it probably also lets us access the north from the core more easily, but I can't prove that and so won't argue it.
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As I understand it; it doesn't do this. It links the Core directly to the Steppe in a north-south route.
 
Kiba said:
We have nowhere near the naval capacity of the Saffron Islanders, which will be more important if we want to contest them at the sea and protect Freehills(should they need protecting).
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That's just the naval compacaity....

Literally nothing else. Just one adavantage does not a superior power make dude, ignoring all our advantages over them in a straight up comparison also makes your point somewhat weaker.

Raichu1972 said:
None of that strength matters if we can't actually use it.
Taking Mass Levy into foreign lands would probably cripple us from a supply standpoint, and leaving them up for even a turn hollows out our cities.

It doesn't matter if we can beat them while using all of our strength, if we can't actually leverage any of that strength in a war with them.
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Yeah, dude, they can't even reach us. They need to go through all of Freehills, who are the size of the Hittites, except with high quality iron for their Hoplite Style troops, using your logic they aren't even a factor in our existence.

Also we brought the levy into foreign lands literally just a couple updates ago. That's what the Forhuch were dude.
 
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Janadus said:
What it indisputably provides is a blueprint / proving grounds for roads through rough terrain.
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This is a good point. I bet completing the Boundary Passage would give us an upgrade to roadbuilding and engineering technology. It might drive up our the max bonus we can get from Interconnectedness.
 
pbluekan said:
Where do you get that idea? They were slaves for hundreds of years and that only recently changed. We also still have king of the hill, which basically assumes we are the strongest.
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They haven't been slaves for hundreds of years and they're an iron-wielding Great Power who controls a lot of the Mediterranean Sea. It's pretty likely they're extremely rich due to trade, and have a massive amount of manpower to draw on. They're currently taking territory from Freehills while Freehills has a heroic general, after all.
 
pbluekan said:
Where do you get that idea? They were slaves for hundreds of years and that only recently changed. We also still have king of the hill, which basically assumes we are the strongest.
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King of the Hill means that we are the most prestigious civ that we know of, not the strongest.

Also, there can exist 2 KotH in close proximity: as was the case with Khem and us in the Epic Age.

It's incredibly likely that the Saffron Isles are KotH in the Mediterranean, and even if they're not that doesn't mean that they don't have the army/navy required to smack us down.

Something that I've learned from the terrible decisions made in the quest, especially the Trelli War, is that we should never underestimate other civs, especially ones that AN mentions as being strong.
 
McLuvin said:
That's just the naval compacaity....

Literally nothing else. Just one adavantage does not a superior power make dude, ignoring all our advantages over them in a straight up comparison also makes your point somewhat weaker.
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The problem is that they are a sea power while we are mostly a land-based power, and that matter far more for the control of the Yllython Sea and the protection of Trelli than our land-based armies.
 
Citino said:
If they managed to conqueror enough, density won't really matter.

It's dangerous to assume we are the strongest when AN has hinted the Saffron Islands are a danger to us.
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Citation needed. Citation needed a lot.

Just over a century ago they were mostly colonised and being beaten by the Trelli. They are now presumably a union of several islands who have had to push out the Trelli colonies, colonies strong enough to go against Trelli itself for an independence bid whilst fighting the natives.

They are strong, no doubt. But they aren't anywhere near our level yet. They have a strong navy. Maybe they'll be pirates, but they cannot threaten us in open war or compare to us in raw statistics such as econ and population.
 
Alratan said:
As I understand it; it doesn't do this. It links the Core directly to the Steppe in a north-south route.
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Don't think so. Here's the relevant part of the description:
AN said:
this would provide an easy but easily controllable and defensible route between the steppes and lowlands
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Reads more like an artificial pass between northern Txolla and Heaven's Hawk, but there is a little ambiguity here. @Academia Nut?

Glassware said:
We do want to have Blackmouth and Sacred Forest so we can Free them next turn without having to spend an action supporting the Urban poor. Given your reasoning, would you be willing to approval vote for a Diplo hero or genius?
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No promises, but I'll think about it.
 
Glassware said:
They haven't been slaves for hundreds of years and they're an iron-wielding Great Power who controls a lot of the Mediterranean Sea. It's pretty likely they're extremely rich due to trade, and have a massive amount of manpower to draw on. They're currently taking territory from Freehills while Freehills has a heroic general, after all.
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Whilst Freehills is also critfailing against a heroic marital leader of the Tin Tribes.

It's easy to kick a man whilst he's down. Doesn't mean they're hot shit yet.
Kiba said:
The problem is that they are a sea power while we are mostly a land-based power, and that matter far more for the control of the Yllython Sea and the protection of Trelli than our land-based armies.
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Dude, we don't have Trelli. The Freehills do. And if it's not bad enough for them to try and gain our Mercs support than it's not bad enough that they think they're going to lose. So yeah. They're a non factor at the moment and with our troop numbers and production capacity If they do try to start shit in Yllython we can kick them out if we actually try to build up our navy
 
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Guys, there's very little point wringing our hands over exactly how strong the Saffron Island are. Regardless, they could potentially cause us problems if they end up on our border, so what action do we think we should take to mitigate that risk, and, perhaps more pertinently, what actions can we afford to take in the next few turns to mitigate their threat?

First off, we're already planning on increasing naval next turn, which should help mitigate any naval advantage the Saffron Islanders might have, especially if we're backing up Freehills in their defense of the Trelli strait.

Second, I think it's time to consider some serious diplomatic efforts towards the Storm Ymaryn in the near future. If they came in on the side of the SI, it would be disastrous, and their economic assistance alone could be extremely valuable.

Perhaps a mission to the Khem? What do you all think?
 
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