Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
Marlin said:
Alright, but the no wealth cost is supposed to be for our current periphery states. The new march would be new, and therefore expected to follow the new ideas of the Ymaryn which include the double wealth cost for martial. We want the march to build up a strong military strength, but how can they do that if they can't use the half-exiles as free labor?

How quickly can the new march stand on it's own that would make forming it actually helpful? I agree we need it, but I would prefer we form it during a golden age, to shed excess stats. The nomads haven't currently displayed conflict with the Ymaryn, but nomads are like bees searching for flowers during the information era. You never know when you'll see them for the last time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually AN mentioned that both the thunder horse and the Txolla will contribute their resources to prop up the march as fast as possible out of self preservation.
 
Marlin said:
Alright, but the no wealth cost is supposed to be for our current periphery states. The new march would be new, and therefore expected to follow the new ideas of the Ymaryn which include the double wealth cost for martial. We want the march to build up a strong military strength, but how can they do that if they can't use the half-exiles as free labor?

How quickly can the new march stand on it's own that would make forming it actually helpful? I agree we need it, but I would prefer we form it during a golden age, to shed excess stats. The nomads haven't currently displayed conflict with the Ymaryn, but nomads are like bees searching for flowers during the information era. You never know when you'll see them for the last time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That is an interesting question, but we don't know exactly how a subsidiary state works. They may inherent whatever was there before or they may have special background booster of some kind, our governors might even funnel resources that way like the second son crisis. Who can say for sure?
 
veekie said:
[][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
Votes: 5

See above. But once we've started the temple it's more likely for passives to finish it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Actually veekie...

Academia Nut said:
Sivantic said:
@Academia Nut If we start the Temple, will our Passives finish it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*glances at current faction power* Possible, but not guaranteed.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Not likely :/

Still, glad to see you voted for it.
 
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X] [Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valleyx2

[X] [Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X] [Guild] Build Ceramics Kilns
[X] [Guild Sec] Efficient Charcoal Kilns

If there are any glaring issues, feel free to point them out.
 
Janadus said:
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Forhuch
[X] [Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X] [Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall Expansion
[X] [Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X] [Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valleyx2

[X] [Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X] [Guild] Build Ceramics Kilns
[X] [Guild Sec] Efficient Charcoal Kilns

If there are any glaring issues, feel free to point them out.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I don't think anything is wrong. I do have a question though; why trade mission instead of games invite or diplomacy mission? What's your aim with it?
 
Academia Nut said:
And then someone had to go and open their mouth about the half-exiles and it had all started spiraling out of control. Details had come out to the public that had made many mad. While some saw opportunities to satiate greed, others saw the greed already happening, and as accusations started flying back and forth many who were not part of the puritanical faction started to make calls for reform of how the half-exiles were treated.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You know, I bet the puritans were pretty confused at this point.
And also losing some of their distinct identity

While there were many half-exiles who were despised, there were always a few members of that community within local communities who had their supporters. People who were generally agreed to have done their time and it was weird that they weren't being cleared for re-entrance into normal society.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And this would be the Urban Poor at work I think. They put a lot of eyes everywhere.

Combined with the fact that there were a number of major families and local guilds that were benefiting from not having to pay for labour that was in the grey area between having to be done by and could be done by the half-exiles, thus giving incentive to get the half-exiles to do it rather than fairly paying people, and there was major backlash there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We've seen some of this. Ash handling for instance. It was dirty, but it's not one of the classic impure organic materials. Was this half exile or apprentice work?

Then there's alchemy, where did handling vitriol essences fall? Should you pay alchemical apprentices a lot to handle them or let half exiles handle dangerous liquids?

Slaughterhouses, snail processing, fish processing. Where did the line between Animal Handling, Killing, Meat and Shit lie? Theres a lot of stuff where you could put the half exiles...and it's a good thing we intercepted that here because it would also mean that the most disease afflicted garbagemen were potentially being tasked to handle raw foodstuffs under the grey areas.
After all, sausages were pretty gross during the in between steps.
Thus it sorted out that the king declared that all labour had to be fairly compensated, either through pay or the deferment of taxes, even if someone was a half-exile. The intent was to remove the incentive to hold onto those who had already done their penance for longer than usual, while still doing the purifying work upon those who actually needed it.

There was a minor riot as the clerks watched their carefully constructed budgets explode. Had the People not already been safe, secure, and prosperous the kingdom would have likely been ripped apart by the various regional conflicts that bubbled forth from the changes made.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Junior Clerk: "Why you do this O King?"
Senior Clerk: "Back in the time of the gods it was known that such is always the way of things. Bless the spirits for poppy and wine."

While there was a mixture of compassionate, pious, and fearful reasoning behind wanting the half-exiles to be treated better, there were also many who were upset by the half-exiles being given 'increased benefits'. The whole affair rapidly became a nasty, ugly, festering mess that the king knew would haunt his successors for generations to come.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

And here is the primitive instinct for Justice element speaking up. Eye for an Eye. Protective Justice. Greater Justice. All of these focus on punishment, limiting harm.

All of them think: "Why the hell are you rewarding criminals?" rather than "How do you remove their reason to be a criminal?"

And of course the fanatics among the Highlanders had to do the sensible thing and work to consolidate their hold on the newly conquered lowland territories before striking out against the Harmurri. While most people who could run had run from the conquered villages between the People and the Harmurri, there were now rumours coming back of the Highlanders forcibly stamping out the local religious beliefs even as they began the construction of forts in key areas and the reformation of local agriculture. While the People had little idea what exactly they were doing, it seemed that they were enforcing organized irrigation and field surveys both as a way to improve yields and a way to improve the defensiveness of the terrain, even as they 'pacified' the population to ensure they would not cause trouble in the foothold the Highlanders had secured.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So looks like there's a Shapers variant involved here. They're working on their terrain defense bonuses.

Convenient timing for us at any rate.
Astrological Prediction: As a source of greed and outside influence the traders should be suppressed (4)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We've had a streak of pretty poor astrology rolls huh?
DakkaMania said:
Too deep a layer can be actively harmful to plants as the lowest points will still accumulate organic mass if the roots get that deep, which leads to anaerobic decomposition. Which in turn releases gases toxic to plants.

Another big issue is that the water storage can become actively harmful. This usually means the roots rot/drown or in some soil types it resembles a moor and you get stuck in it like quicksand* after very heavy rainfalls. You need very good drainage at that point.

Broadly speaking, for most crops you want something like 30 cm as you can actually work that with a plough or otherwise get air down there. I expect the Ymaryn to notice at some point that adding more Black Soil doesn't really help and that they can just use manure directly, lowering the mass needing to be transported (as only the manure has the high amounts of nitrogen).

*Walking over a seemingly dry patch and suddenly be stuck up to your knees is not fun, believe me. At least the Ymaryn don't have any mechanization yet. Then it would be real fun.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We have actually have had this during the climate disaster. The heavy rain + the thick black soil caused some sections to liquify because it held too much water. Heh.
Academia Nut said:
Somewhat. More that the independent religious action has its own pool of resources, and they currently don't have enough to build a temple. They will probably plant textiles or something like that to raise funds to study stars next turn to build up the Mysticism they need to fund a temple or library.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Hmm, interesting, so they basically are a subordinate?
PrimalShadow said:
If the Patricians want them, they can hijack them. If they don't, it can wait a turn. Our everything is messed up enough that I'm not especially eager to rush handing over power to our factions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

My thought on the Grand Hall as well.
Plus you know, it buys us 1 turn's grace on the Patricians spite quest coming out. 1 more turn to deal with that shit.
 
Sivantic said:
Absolutely :)

This is why I am trying to upgrade the Temple, as that allows another center for our Priests while also raising their faction power.

May I tempt you to vote for it as well?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I'll support building up the priestly class for awhile. It would be nice if we can get the different religious factions within our kingdom to reconcile and work together because they would make a very effective team. Perhaps we can organize a grand conclave or something to connect all the religious factions within our kingdom into one super faction.

Once that that team start acting like the papacy, the christian crusaders, the inquisition, and other similar institutions though,,,

If they start to get greedy and childish, I will switch to supporting another faction.

There's plenty of time before that happens (Probably a few hundred years abouts)

Until than, I'll be supporting the priestly class so there's an effective counterbalance.

[x] Sivantic
 
BungieONI said:
I don't think anything is wrong. I do have a question though; why trade mission instead of games invite or diplomacy mission? What's your aim with it?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Games invite is a good thing to do once we know more about them. Right now, we have more immediate needs, and I don't want to risk it fizzling.

Trade mission costs Diplo and pays out Wealth. Diplomacy mission costs Wealth and gives Diplo. We need Wealth more than Diplo.

Also, they have silk, which is something we'll probably be very interested in buying.
 
veekie said:
My thought on the Grand Hall as well.
Plus you know, it buys us 1 turn's grace on the Patricians spite quest coming out. 1 more turn to deal with that shit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's a good point.
Also, another thing.
What about supporting Priests some more? They are only one of 'high-class' factions who oppose slavery. Temple is great maybe one-turn another Temple somewhere else? And let passives/active Policy finish the started Temple?

Sorta like this.
veekie said:
I'm not really sure what we're doing with this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Narratively we follow-up on previous decision by hunting down the slavery-minded. Combines with EJ. However, provinces can take it, so whatever.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Build Temple - Sunrise Grove
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Suppress Faction - Patricians
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns

So, idea: Suppress Patricians + Support Traders + EJ + Temple for Priests = ideally, we want to punish slavers (EJ+Suppress), elevate anti-slavery faction (Priests) and, hopefully, split Traders from slavers.

@Academia Nut , is it possible to make faction more anti-slavery?
And are traders especially invested (and how) in continuing the lax enforcement of half-exile rules (our brand of slavery basically)?
 
DragonParadox said:
And what do you do when said faction is busy infighting, with each side calling he other evil?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Support the subfactions I like, of course. Just because I like the faction as a whole doesn't mean I have to like them all equally.

That would currently be the polytheists (or what remains of them...). Alternatively those who favour Gwy & Goya, if we have to have limited deities. Because what's not to love about hermaphroditic creator gods based on our first Hero?
 
Janadus said:
Games invite is a good thing to do once we know more about them. Right now, we have more immediate needs, and I don't want to risk it fizzling.

Trade mission costs Diplo and pays out Wealth. Diplomacy mission costs Wealth and gives Diplo. We need Wealth more than Diplo.

Also, they have silk, which is something we'll probably be very interested in buying.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As far as I know our initial contact with them has made it so we purchase some silk, need the Canal to purchase more more easily.

Games is unlikely to fizzle.
Academia Nut said:
Not necessarily.
It seems entirely possible.

You do not know, but you suspect that a major nomad value is something with these sorts of pros and cons:

Pros: Increased chance of Martial Heroes, increased chance of Martial Heroes having other Heroic skills
Cons: The lower the Martial skill of the king, the higher the chance for civil war - automatic at Martial skill of Mediocre or less

The Forhuch king is almost certainly Martial+Diplo Heroic, and quite possibly Martial+Diplo+Admin Heroic. It is probably not possible for any nomad chieftain of note to not be Heroic Martial, and most of the actual tribal unifiers will be Martial+Admin or Martial+Diplo.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Not sure what you want by "learn more about them". Can you elucidate please?
 
SeptimusMagisto said:
I seem to recall us having big problems with them a while back. Not even counting the fact that they're pretty directly responsible for the current crisis.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The problem was not with the priests, the problem was with our military not being sufficient to enforce the Gods' will!

Unless you are thinking of a different time the priests caused trouble, either way I am certain I can pin the blame on something else. If nothing else, there's always the latent influence of Arxyn...
 
DragonParadox said:
Diplomacy overflows directly into wealth so the difference is not that meaningful.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
At the end of the turn, sure. Mid-turn, though, we'll be an additional 2 Wealth down, I think.

Narratively, I'm more interested in trade links than diplomatic ties right now.

BungieONI said:
As far as I know our initial contact with them has made it so we purchase some silk, need the Canal to purchase more more easily.

Games is unlikely to fizzle.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
True, but whether the Games will fizzle or not is a secondary concern. Right now, I want cash in hand. Diplo drip from the Forhuch will be great, but I have a feeling we're going to need a lot of money very soon. Ideally, we spend this turn and most of next turn consolidating and putting out fires (Trader Quest + Patricians), then spend turn after that trying to put ourselves on a long-term sustainable path. I am still pretty skeptical our setup of policies is sustainable, what with doubled Wealth costs and all that entails.

If it looks like Diplo Mission / Trade Mission / Invite to Games will fail because of a split vote, I'll change my vote to support the winner. I agree that we need to do something with to Forhuch, but what exactly that winds up being isn't something I'm super worried about, despite my personal preference.

EDIT: I mean, I definitely think there's a better option, but I don't think Invite to Games is a bad option; it's just less than ideal.
 
Last edited:
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
 
ctulhuslp said:
That's a good point.
Also, another thing.
What about supporting Priests some more? They are only one of 'high-class' factions who oppose slavery. Temple is great maybe one-turn another Temple somewhere else? And let passives/active Policy finish the started Temple?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Considering that some of the priests actually advocated for slavery. Ugh, no.
ctulhuslp said:
Narratively we follow-up on previous decision by hunting down the slavery-minded. Combines with EJ. However, provinces can take it, so whatever.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Build Temple - Sunrise Grove
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Suppress Faction - Patricians
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think we will be better off actually completing the temple. Also, suppressing the Patrician faction does nothing to change their view and waste stability and culture.

If you want to support an anti-slavery stance, make Patricians proud of having expensive and well trained servants.

"I got the best damn butler in town because he wants to work for me."

What this mean is that the Patricians want to have the best subordinates. And they want to be the best boss ever, because that is how you attract the best subordinates.

Thus, they will look down on people who uses slavery and get suspicious about the loyalty of poorly paid subordinates.
 
@ctulhuslp You forgot that supressing a faction fails their current quest, didn't you?

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
 
Pyro Hawk said:
@ctulhuslp You forgot that supressing a faction fails their current quest, didn't you?

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley x2
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, yes I did, Changing to EJ x2 to ensure anti-slavery sticks now that we actually are looking into the issue.

[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Build Temple - Sunrise Grove
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice x2
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Guild] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild Secondary] Salterns

Kiba said:
I think we will be better off actually completing the temple. Also, suppressing the Patrician faction does nothing to change their view and waste stability and culture.

If you want to support an anti-slavery stance, make Patricians proud of having expensive and well trained servants.

"I got the best damn butler in town because he wants to work for me."

What this mean is that the Patricians want to have the best subordinates. And they want to be the best boss ever, because that is how you attract the best subordinates.

Thus, they will look down on people who uses slavery and get suspicious about the loyalty of poorly paid subordinates.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I think I can trust provinces/passives to do 3 progress' worth of Temple we've already started building, so I am unsure whether it's wise to fully complete it ourselves. Doing one lvl1 to add to that one lvl2 would be nicer, IMO. Although I am not sure.
 
[X][Main] Great Dam
[X][Secondary] Support Faction - Traders
[X][Secondary] Palace Annex - Great Hall
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[X][Secondary] Invite to Games - Forhuch
[X][Secondary] Upgrade Temple - Horse Valley
[X][Secondary] Hunt Troublemakers

[X][Guild] Plant Cash Crops - Textiles
[X][Guild] Salterns
[X][Guild Secondary] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
 
ctulhuslp said:
I think I can trust provinces/passives to do 3 progress' worth of Temple we've already started building, so I am unsure whether it's wise to fully complete it ourselves. Doing one lvl1 to add to that one lvl2 would be nicer, IMO. Although I am not sure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Increase RA decrease our wealth cap, unless you're planning for that to overflow into martial.
 
Kiba said:
Increase RA decrease our wealth cap, unless you're planning for that to overflow into martial.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Fair, decreasing cap to 20 is unpleasant....but we also need a Spirit Channel March and we'll be left with Martial 6 and warmongering Highlanders afterwards.
Then again. With new Wealth prices cap of 20 is kinda insanely low. More powerful Guilds help with cap, but, well, more powerful Guilds.

I don't like lowering Wealth cap, but I also see Priests as the most useful anti-slavery faction. Maybe UP too? Maybe should replace second temple with FCing Sacred Forest.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top