Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
*shrug*
$ and diplo-influx is just more important to me. We can always kill them during the war.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
$ and diplo-influx is just more important to me. We can always kill them during the war.
This, frankly, is the bigger issue.
Especially given we're about to torque off many of the people who have the power to seriously break Ymar should they put their minds to it.
I sincerely doubt "next quest is a spite quest" is all we're going to have to worry about from the factions in question.
Cheaper and bigger mills. And windmills. Take the load off local mills by sending ore to be crushed further away.
Cranes(which I suspect will come with the biggest dam) to move the bulk collection at less manpower.
Canals so shipping the shitting is cheaper.
Bigger, stronger wagons.
Central garbage collection.
Cheaper fuel and ceramics.
Increased urbanization for efficiencies of scale.
Cheaper containers so the rubbish is transported more easily...
- Location
- Austria
God fucking damn it.
Problem is, we will need to be at, like, 10+ wealth to afford doing anything. We straight up won't be able to do a quick army raise.
Mercenary companies will cost double, so all the people who want more companies (me included) can go suck it for the foreseeable future.
So we are left with our pants down Martial-wise and Naval-wise already, which is not a good thing when Steppes are right here.
Next. Doubled Mills and Academies costs mean we cannot now, realistically speaking, afford the things which actually solve the problem - those that make skilled labour respectively more useful and more widely available. It means that we are removing long-term solution to slavery from the table here - because we already cannot afford to build Mills, Academies and other skill-risers because of other commitments, we just straight up won't be building them afterwards.
That will also set them up for a big fall, because they will literally burn all their forests making concrete, and we will get schadenfreude out of this.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
I think it's a little comical that our vote is guaranteed to enrage our three most powerful factions this turn, and in response, we're...
...focusing monomaniacally on Infrastructure?
"Objective: build the dam. Obstacle: reforms are causing major social issues. Solution: more dams!"
- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
So, the Ymaryn zeitgeist is overwhelmingly for reforming the half-exile system, but I am kinda wondering where that support is coming from in-universe. The Patricians use a tool of power, it makes everything more expensive for guilds and traders who are always concerned about their bottom line and the lower and poor classes now won't have an extensive caste anymore to which they can shove the literal shit jobs...
Basically, the exploitation of the half-exiles has always been a very neat deal for the entire rest of society...
Basically, the exploitation of the half-exiles has always been a very neat deal for the entire rest of society...
- Location
- United States
The support is basically coming from no where, besides some of the priests.
That's why all of our affluent classes will be giving us spite quests, because the King will be pissing them all off at once.
The Urban Poor will likely be ambivalent, because while they now have to do shit jobs they will also be getting paid more for it.
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
No it'll mean the Half-exiles will join the Urban Poor, since they don't get a faction they join a different one, being Urban poor or join the rural poor (which have no faction)
- Pronouns
- They/Them
A grudging acknowledgement that, admittedly, the half-exile system is deeply fucked up and unjust and needs to be repaired, hence nobody exactly objects to the reforms but god damn it why is doing the right thing so haaaaard.
I counted 50 for all the other votes, but they're fairly divided. So we have over 50% favoring this solution.
- Location
- United States
Will they?
I'm not sure if reforming the Half Exile practice will free some of the existing Half Exiles, or if it will only apply to the new Half Exiles.
I guess most of the children of Half Exiles will become Urban or Rural Poor, but I'm still not sure how the reforms work specifically.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
A meta-virtuous perspective isn't forbidden from causing good outcomes, just from requiring them as part of morality. Similarly, it's not hedonistic pursuit of the feeling of conforming to virtue, because that is (again) a consequence - correct actions are ends unto themselves, independent of any results, including the tautological result of having performed a correct action. Fundamentally, consequentialist vs. virtue ethics is a question which cannot be resolved through pure reason, because what justifications are valid hinges upon your prior ethical stance. A meta-consequentialist can argue that consequentialist ethics produce maximum good while virtue ethics produce only a feeling of self-satisfaction, but a meta-virtue-ethicist would respond that the argument is entirely moot due to its failure to consider which ethical system is more intrinsically virtuous, and would reject out of hand any consideration of what results they produce as irrelevant.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Me either
I still don't get why we have to do this NOW, why can't we wait until we mechanized more or at most get within spitting distance of industrialization? That way we can more easily get rid of slavery and not risk our civ for a measure we can't be sure will stick for long
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Oh right, forgot to vote.
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
I've been wanting this goddamn dam for something like 2000 years at this point. You bet your ass I'm wanting the most impressive dam tp be built. It will be so fucking cool that everyone else will just go 'nah fuck it, it's not worth building a dam when THE DAM is a thing'!
Also because our only other wonder is Sacred Forest and that's had some pretty neat benefits for us so yeah.
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
I've been wanting this goddamn dam for something like 2000 years at this point. You bet your ass I'm wanting the most impressive dam tp be built. It will be so fucking cool that everyone else will just go 'nah fuck it, it's not worth building a dam when THE DAM is a thing'!
Also because our only other wonder is Sacred Forest and that's had some pretty neat benefits for us so yeah.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We can do the actions that solve this; we just have to give up on the dozen facets of our society we used to prioritize over them. And either somehow wrangle the factions to allow us or go into a Golden Age to try to get a Heroic Admin king so we can use order of operations to pay for our own actions.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's something I will have to work out, but at this point I am thinking that it will come from the theological arguments getting out of hand where the commoners can see them, and the ruling classes all attempting to throw each other under the chariot and thus corruption getting exposed to the common folk, who get really mad and in their calls for reforms of things they think might be used to exploit them the ruling classes end up basically attempting to pay them off.
Fundamentally, what this is going to do is to say that the work the half-exiles do has to be compensated as if it were being done by a freeman, to tamp down on the impulse to just find someone the community doesn't like to make them do unpleasant but necessary work. When you can pay your taxes by doing corvee labour hauling manure and get paid in food/coin for the corvee labour you used to do, suddenly the government is covering a whole lot more billable hours in a year and collecting less in direct taxation.
- Location
- Meycauayan, Bulacan, Philippines
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
Let's build the greatest Dam in the World!
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
Oh freaking God! The Party of Spite is now present in our Quest!
[X] [PP] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
Let's build the greatest Dam in the World!
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
Oh freaking God! The Party of Spite is now present in our Quest!
[X] [PP] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [PP] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
- Location
- Austria
Oooor we can have some patience and do it once we are more mechanized society without hamstringing our everything in process.
Right, so. I feel this needs to be done.
Skullduggery, why is this such an important passive policy?
Well first off our only means of generating intrigue are going to cost 4 wealth/1 point of intrigue with the wealth increase. This means we can not afford intrigue nearly as much.
Why is intrigue important, though? Simply put, because the Hunt Troublemakers action is amazing. The action basically allows us to preempt trouble before it gets out of hand if we know or suspect it is happening. This means that fires can get resolved before they get out of hand.
Not only is this incredibly vital on an average basis, but given that we are about to cause major social upheaval, there are likely going to be lots of background troubles that we won't notice until they start blowing up at an inopportune time. As such, it is an action we're going to need a lot of in the future, and it costs intrigue.
Not to mention we've seen our intrigue score preempt problems just by existing, see stopping sanitation problems in Redshore's level 2 city before the plague because we had recently started doing some skullduggery.
So please, vote Skullduggery as a passive policy.
Skullduggery, why is this such an important passive policy?
Well first off our only means of generating intrigue are going to cost 4 wealth/1 point of intrigue with the wealth increase. This means we can not afford intrigue nearly as much.
Why is intrigue important, though? Simply put, because the Hunt Troublemakers action is amazing. The action basically allows us to preempt trouble before it gets out of hand if we know or suspect it is happening. This means that fires can get resolved before they get out of hand.
Not only is this incredibly vital on an average basis, but given that we are about to cause major social upheaval, there are likely going to be lots of background troubles that we won't notice until they start blowing up at an inopportune time. As such, it is an action we're going to need a lot of in the future, and it costs intrigue.
Not to mention we've seen our intrigue score preempt problems just by existing, see stopping sanitation problems in Redshore's level 2 city before the plague because we had recently started doing some skullduggery.
So please, vote Skullduggery as a passive policy.
So, two questions:
The river we are damming up, is it one the HK are dependant on?
If yes, does the construction process cause issues for their agriculture?
If no, would biggest Dam cause issues?
Just want to make sure we screw them over properly.
The river we are damming up, is it one the HK are dependant on?
If yes, does the construction process cause issues for their agriculture?
If no, would biggest Dam cause issues?
Just want to make sure we screw them over properly.
DkArthas
CAPITAL IS TO BLAME
- Location
- Earth
- Pronouns
- They
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Those actions are what make us a more mechanized society in the ways that have any hope of reducing Wealth costs for actions or otherwise balancing their net cost. If we just try to chill in this situation rather than solving it, then it becomes extremely likely that we face multiple crises while under it. Facing crises at a disadvantage is exactly how you fracture.
We have to find some kind of stable footing. We can either innovate into that or we can go hard on Wealth income and things that reduce the likelihood of disease outbreaks. I don't think we can build enough Salterns and Gold Mines to not have our Wealth costs automatically cripple us if internal trade is disrupted, so we'd have to settle for Markets and honestly I don't think Baths and Aqueducts help as much as having the city or higher city level hurts, so in 'solving' our Wealth problem that way we make collapse more likely. Which ultimately means to return to our current levels of failure chance we need either medical advances or industrial advances.
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
At the end of the day, we must be realists.
There is no path I see where we could ever tank the Wealth-costs if we got rid of the half-exiles and at the end of the day, the loss of prohibition of slavery is just a chance, not a guarantee
[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
At the end of the day, we must be realists.
There is no path I see where we could ever tank the Wealth-costs if we got rid of the half-exiles and at the end of the day, the loss of prohibition of slavery is just a chance, not a guarantee
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