Does Build MIlls represent the sort of mechanization you're talking about? If so, then would you expect the Black Soil action evolution to resemble the Build MIlls action?

if you want something to be cheap enough, you need to build a lot of that something.

Same thing for quality. You could carefully build each widget by hand, or you get so good at it that you can make cheap high quality widgets in mass number.

This is the logic applied to SpaceX and rocketry. They make far more engines than anyone else on the planet, and launches more rockets than anyone else. This makes them cheaper and more reliable in the long run and they are already the cheapest launcher on the market, and they don't exactly skim on quality either.

Right now, we did far too few watermills to make enough difference. We didn't do enough kilns to reduce the cost. We didn't do enough cavalry to make them cheaper.

The hardest part is the sheer upstart cost associated with wealth intensive actions. Eating a watermill action is just downright painful.

I suppose we will have to deal with the Highlanders stealing cement and all our almost-steel and Aqua Glass.

Can't stop the wagon.

You can't steal Ymaryn innovations without expecting to pay the cost for it.
 
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[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3

Had already discussed this and came to the same conclusion, we need markets asap, and the new influx of consumers (ex half-exiles) will do wonders, but will keep conservative on the Dam building thing.
 
He's being defeatist at Veekie getting the City Support policy through. I don't think that's going to happen so long as we fight against it and keep Skullduggery in the running. We really need the Skullduggery, and right now it's still ahead.
Uh, why would the HK spend their intrigue action on getting cement or glass right now though? They want to take the lowlands, not steal our crafter stuff.

Edit: Hell, they can't even make cement without access to the black sea! Sea salt is literally one of the key ingredients for our brand of cement, iirc.

Also, @Academia Nut when it says this:
Either way, inaction was ill-advised, so war was probably inevitable. Whether waiting was advisable was... questionable... but it was the decision that had been made.
Are the Harmurri going to be pissed at us now? I thought that as long as we joined the war as soon as the HK attacks the Harmurri they would be fine with our decision. But this makes it sound like we had to attack first, without any CB other than 'they might be a threat Destroy the Lampreys '. Can you explain this section a bit?
 
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if you want something to be cheap enough, you need to build a lot of that something.

Same thing for quality. You could carefully build each widget by hand, or you get so good at it that you can make cheap high quality widgets in mass number.

This is the logic applied to SpaceX and rocketry. They make far more engines than anyone else on the planet, and launches more rockets than anyone else. This makes them cheaper and more reliable in the long run.

Right now, we did far too few watermills to make enough difference. We didn't do enough kilns to reduce the cost. We didn't do enough cavalry to make them cheaper.

The hardest part is the sheer upstart cost associated with wealth intensive actions. Eating a watermill action is just downright painful.



You can't steal Ymaryn innovations without expecting to pay the cost for it.
Do you think Black Soil will be different from those? If mechanizing it made it a middle class job that produces innovations, then it would fall under Life of Arete and Artisan Games and potentially cost 2 Wealth, which our half-exile response here would double to 4. None of this would affect the EE production of the action. Life of Arete would produce Culture, Tech and/or Mysticism if it added a Wealth cost (balanced around -1 Wealth, but paid for by us at -2 Wealth, mind you) and Artisan Games would improve innovations for its Wealth cost.

I think this would result in yet another action we aren't interested in taking enough to further improve, and therefore spamming the action to get there isn't worth our time if this sort of innovation is our motivation.


Just because mechanization was good in the Industrial Revolution doesn't mean that it's good for our oddball of a society.

Huh? Why would they be able to steal cement?

Unless you are certain that they can beat both the Harmurri and us alone for some reason?
They can take Intrigue actions to copy our kiln-based tech the same way they got iron a while back.

This mainly becomes possible if they're building up Intrigue and we find another -2 Intrigue option that we feel we've gotta take, and assuming we don't take a Skulduggery policy here.
 
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[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)
[X] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)
[X] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)
[X] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)
 
So I've been thinking about passives in the post reform world. For those who didn't read AN's information post, the long and short of it is that we'll have about 20 passive policies, but the factions get to control half, leaving us with 10 to allocate. The faction choices are said to be somewhat stable choices, and will only change up to about half a turn.

Combined with repeated Expand Forests actions making Forestry passives obsolete, this gives us a lot of wiggle room. The factions are going to choose options they want, which can vary a lot. For instance, it's very likely that Patricians would want to grab a Diplo drip, while Traders might want a wealth drip and maybe guilds want a tech drip. With ten faction controlled actions, we won't have to worry about not trying random "suboptimal" passives since they will.

For this reason, I think we should use the player controlled passives on stuff we absolutely want to occur every turn, rather than pursuing a scattershot of different things we want to try out. For that reason, I think our player controlled passives should look something like this:

4x Infrastructure
2x Defense
1x City Support
1x Vassal Support
1x Skullduggery
1x Whatever people want to argue over

Simple, practical stuff that we always want. Infrastructure could maybe be reduced once we get marketplaces up, but it should look like that at least for a little while. Defense to tick away at our wall situation, since it's not sexy but is important. City Support to ensure we're always econ positive. Vassal Support to ensure a minimum commitment to our subordinates, with factions potentially helping out with more. Skullduggery because the passive trouble checks from generating it is great, and so we always have Intrigue to burn. Ya'll can fight over whatever you think the last should be.

"But what about Diplo/Trade/Armament/Patronage!!!"

As I said, these passives will very likely be taken by our factions as they directly involve their sphere of influence. We can let them handle the random choices while we focus on the essential stuff. Whether or not you disagree with the exact distribution of policies, that's the main point of this post: we should use our passives to take care of the boring, unsexy stuff that we need, rather than the extra stuff we want to try.
 
Uh, why would the HK spend their intrigue action on getting cement or glass right now though? They want to take the lowlands, not steal our crafter stuff.

Edit: Hell, they can't even make cement without access to the black sea! Sea salt is literally one of the key ingredients for our brand of cement, iirc.
I think it's more "we lose all our fancy tech to an HK Launch Intrigue Mission". They don't particularly want to steal that, but they'll take what they can get against us. But yeah, I'm a lot more worried about them stirring trouble for us by making the Monotheists angry or giving us fake refugees or something.

We're gonna be threading the needle. We are in desperate need of many things, some of which will create their own desperate needs.
"The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."

On a side note, I'm sad that we won't get the unanimous bonus. At the start it was pretty close, but it's too far gone now. 75% isn't enough.
 
Do you think Black Soil will be different from those? If mechanizing it made it a middle class job that produces innovations, then it would fall under Life of Arete and Artisan Games and potentially cost 2 Wealth, which our half-exile response here would double to 4. None of this would affect the EE production of the action. Life of Arete would produce Culture, Tech and/or Mysticism if it added a Wealth cost (balanced around -1 Wealth, but paid for by us at -2 Wealth, mind you) and Artisan Games would improve innovations for its Wealth cost.

I think this would result in yet another action we aren't interested in taking enough to further improve, and therefore spamming the action to get there isn't worth our time if this sort of innovation is our motivation.


Just because mechanization was good in the Industrial Revolution doesn't mean that it's good for our oddball of a society.

I am not sure what you are getting at here. Mechanization is pretty much the only way we can make things cheaper. Right now everything costs double because the labor is too expensive and the productivity too low.

Also, I do not think Black Soil will spawn the kind of innovations we need. You will need a Build Mill action to pair with it.
 
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[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
[X] [PP] City Support (4 Econ cost for True Cities offset each turn, -1 Tech)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)

[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
 
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I am not sure what you are getting at here. Mechanization is pretty much the only way we can make things cheaper. Right now everything costs double because the labor is too expensive and the productivity is low.

Also, I do not think Black Soil will spawn the kind of innovations we need. You will need a Build Mill action to pair with it.
I think that mechanization of things like Black Soil is more or less useless and we need to advance either the industries that produce things like mills and seed drills or the sustainability of paying laborers. Right now, taking an action that costs, say, 5 Econ and making it have a base cost of 2 Wealth with a chance for innovation is actively bad for us, where in a more normal society it would be a huge improvement, since instead of reducing the cost by 3, we would be increasing it by 1 and making it a harder type of stat to generate. This is the sort of result that Mechanization produces, because the people who operate mills or seed drills and the people who build mills and seed drills all have to be paid far more handsomely than the people who manually produce black soil, and because once they're using mechanized methods, they will always be using up resources to experiment to find an even better way to do things.

Essentially, this early shift away from slave-like labor, when combined with our level of development and our values, produces a fundamentally different paradigm to both the quest history and to RL history.


Feel free to debate that with @veekie and @bluefur87 because you've restated my original position that they strenuously object to.

For reference:
I think the only way increased labor demand leads to mechanization is if we can actually afford the mechanization equipment, and costs like that are mostly Wealth costs, with some Tech costs. So sure, if we take those actions alongside innovator actions like Mills or Support Artisans, then it leads to mechanization. On their own, however, they default to trying to get cheap labor IMO.
 
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@George If you want to reduce the wealth cost of mechanical equipment, you need to build more of it. Ditto for actually reducing tech cost.

And that's our biggest problem. To get there, we need to eat a lot of costs before it becomes easier.
 
@George If you want to reduce the wealth cost of mechanical equipment, you need to build more of it. Ditto for actually reducing tech cost.
Yes, which means building Mills or Ironworks or whatever core industrial thing and not doing Black Soil at all - the synergy between Build Mills and Black Soil will direct the innovations to Black Soil Processing, while without that synergy the chance of getting a purer engineering or mills advance is higher.
 
I think what we need right now is financial innovations. Some way for Ymar to take advantage of a lower class flush with cash - because that money hopefully isn't just sitting there. Banking, maybe.

Building more markets might get us innovations in that direction; not sure how much academies or libraries might help.
 
Huh? Why would they be able to steal cement?

Unless you are certain that they can beat both the Harmurri and us alone for some reason?
Because they likely have three to five times our Intrigue score. They damn well can take ours shit without paying any kind of price.

We bleed ourselves dry for innovation. They come in and steal it with a successful intrigue mission or two. Has been that way for a while until we started to finally raise intrigue.

Now its going down the drain.
 
"So, as you can see, this is where the gods cut the rock for the Great River to pass through here. It is the hardest rock in the valley system, which makes it a pain to work with, but also the best place to drive our anchors, and one of the narrowest points in the entire region. The plan currently has us building a temporary dam just upstream to divert at least some of the water into one of the side canyons. That region is a bit calmer but the river is wider and the bed is made from gravel and mud rather than solid rock, so it won't hold in the long run once we get a reservoir built up behind it. Anyway, the hard rock here means that once we cut anchor points in, the anchors will fail before the rock. Now, there's a bunch of things that can fail other than the anchors, but those will be fairly significant in terms of overall strength. Still, the stronger we can make the pilings and anchors, the better,"
So a few things:
-We have some kind of extra hard bedrock here. I'd say granite except the Valleyguard region is metamorphic rock IIRC. Slate?
-We're using anchors for the dam rather than single piece structure. Depending on the level of investment, this could be either sinking a stone pillar into the bedrock and then building a wall around it, using a concrete pillar, or potentially using some variant of reinforced concrete. This also means that we can tank some degrees of partial dam failure without complete failure if the dam wall breaks but the pillars hold and localize the damage.
--In the case of reinforced concrete, yes, corrosion of the metal may be a concern. It depends on the concrete mix so we won't know, but GENERALLY, the limestone component of the concrete would prevent the oxidation of the iron, especially if case hardened.

Nodding, the Chief said, "We can totally do this with just the resources already planned, but we can make it bigger and stronger with more cement and iron. The reservoir already planned will be big, but with a taller dam and some side dams to keep a few of the less desirable canyons from flooding, we can get the water to spill into this one canyon where we could really easily put a couple dozen mills with easy access to existing roads and the planned canal. If anyone ever wants to make it bigger, the only way to do that would be to build a whole new dam, so if we can build bigger and higher and stronger that would be saving our descendants a lot of hassle."
The dam will be at the level its built at. It'd not change.

Noting the expansion plans:
[] [Dam] Keep as is

Basic dam built with brick and stone.

[] [Dam] Use stronger materials, keep as is (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs)

This would be making use of concrete pilings, but otherwise keep it the same.

[] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)

This adds the concrete pilings and raises the dam even higher, which allows a secondary outflow channel to run a massive hydropower plant.
This would, incidentally, start solving the cost increase for the half exile matter, because the sheer availability of hydropower would push a big advancement in mills everywhere, and probably vastly improve the ironworks as a result.

[] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)

This would go plus ultra. We're PROBABLY going to develop Reinforced Concrete, Cranes(the lifting apparatus) and Buttresses to make this possible here, extending the dam all the way up the canyon so it's basically an artificial cliff face. Possibly packed sand/earth/clay core if we could cast concrete around that so it doesn't wash away. Packed sand is very good at absorbing and dissipating stress.

Which while very prestigious, also adds a lot to our ability to construct taller buildings. Expect our cities to start getting higher as a result, and likewise to all megastructures.
Walls naturally would get the biggest boost.
Just consider the redefinition of a Colossal wall after THAT.

The king then sighed. Administratively things were going well - someone had misallocated funds for the palace expansion but when it had been caught a number of patricians had practically tripped over themselves to correct the issue with their own funds and contacts, resulting in an even bigger expansion than planned, so there was now in fact a second hall that was where the movers and shakers of the kingdom could gather to hash out their issues with each other before going straight for the king's hall, where important things still happened but it was harder to talk openly without causing issue. This also opened up the lower classes in Valleyhome to come in and talk more, also freeing up valuable time. It was all very nice, and highlighted all the other problems.
And so we discover what the Grand Halls have been doing. The King's Hall maxed out at 4, which then opened up to create an upper house and lower house.

Oh and I think we just created the capacity for lobbyists.

Like the Highlanders, who had responded to the inquiries as to what they were doing as 'Taking the lowlands'. While they hadn't made any direct threats to the People yet, it was pretty obvious that they were going to attack the Harmurri once they finished off the minor tribes, and then the People would have to either intervene or let the Harmurri fight it out. If the Highlanders won then they would probably turn their eyes towards the People, and if the Harmurri won they would undoubtedly be pissed at being abandoned by people they thought had their backs. Either way, inaction was ill-advised, so war was probably inevitable. Whether waiting was advisable was... questionable... but it was the decision that had been made.
So back up the Harmurri. Good that we have the situation confirmed. Bad that this will be expensive(again).
Far worse though was the results of confronting the puritans over the behaviour that had required the execution and exile of so many troublemakers among them and attempting to pull out the philosophy had run into a major issue: the half-exiles. Or, more accurately, the prohibitions against slavery. In the debates more than a few of the orthodox priests had been put on the back foot by being called out for being hypocrites, how they proclaimed all sorts of actions that the puritans decried as impure were acceptable, but that the People weren't to participate in the enslavement or shipment of slaves because it spread spiritual taint. While it was obvious that the line of argument had been intended to silence their critics over the puritanical philosophies, it had instead sparked off a new conversation. Given all the things that the priests said were tolerable to the spirits, was slavery really that bad? History showed that the war over slavery in the Freehills with the Trelli had generally gone poorly, so if the gods truly were with them on the issue would they not have given the People greater success?
Strawman argument turned real.

Purity is ALSO the trait which was anchoring our opposition of slavery to begin with. It's an idealistic concept with no basis in reality to begin with.

Philosopher Kings comes to play here. We cannot just accept the dogma blindly.

How did the debates go?
[] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)

Here, we focus on pressing the Puritans until they break, whatever the costs. The slavery restrictions will be debated on the merits of Injustice rather than Spiritual Corruption, which is a lot weaker because obviously Ymaryn slave owners would be more moral and superior, who wouldn't abuse people right?

[] [Purity] While their vigilante violence was wrong, maybe they have a point here (Pride in Acceptance downgraded to Cosmopolitan Acceptance)

Here we focus on how slaves are wrong because its a foreign idea. Which protects the reason on a Just Because basis, but now foreign practices are more impure than local practices.

[] [Purity] Some hypocrisy is acceptable (Greater Justice modified)

Here we double down. We define slavery and half exiles as different, that half exiles deserve what they get because they are criminals, while the slaves are not criminals.
As such, we excise a section of the community as Other.

[] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

And here we take the choice we avoided last time and as predicted, this will HURT. This isn't necessarily removing the institution(we still need to deal with real criminals), but the reform WILL cut the supply dramatically as we observe abuses.

[] [Purity] Look to the heavens for a sign (Random, could be all good results from above options, could be all bad results from above options, likely a mix)

And here we kick Philosopher Kings in the balls and go back to omens. Even if we roll all good, I think it'd be a Debilitating trap because we have NOT justified slavery resistance.
 
I think what we need right now is financial innovations. Some way for Ymar to take advantage of a lower class flush with cash - because that money hopefully isn't just sitting there. Banking, maybe.

Building more markets might get us innovations in that direction; not sure how much academies or libraries might help.

Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.
 
I think what we need right now is financial innovations. Some way for Ymar to take advantage of a lower class flush with cash - because that money hopefully isn't just sitting there. Banking, maybe.

Building more markets might get us innovations in that direction; not sure how much academies or libraries might help.
I definitely think that's important. I don't think there's any one sector we can advance to solve this, though, unless there's something out there that directly reduces Wealth costs or provides a Wealth refund.

I think we essentially need to advance our entire society to the point where everything else gets scaled up to match the Wealth costs we are dealing with, or otherwise target multiple key sectors to support the larger middle class we add by promoting our slave class to lower class and maintaining the relative prestige of being a Yeomen or Artisan versus being a normal farmer.
 
Level 5 (level 4 for you now, requires a level 3 city to get) markets may begin generating financial innovation rolls. Or at least allow for actions to make such rolls reliably. In a level 3 city that would be 48 Wealth and 24 culture, currently.
Grand Bazaar was unlocked at Market levels 2/1/1. Do you think an upgraded form might unlock at something like 4/2/2?
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
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