I think the most likely outcome of getting rid of the Half-Exile system is it forcing us to take labor intensive non-wealth options like cash crops, making it incredibly likely that we will bounce back to actual slavery in the future in order to satisfy our demand for cheap labor.

Also, getting Wealth up above 10 will be a chore, which means that we will be constantly fighting the Guilds, whose actions we don't want to take because they are inefficient with the increased wealth costs. This will put extreme stresses on the Guild Mercantile economic system. We might have to transition to another system in the government change.
 
I will be redoing my vote in a minute to normal fancy dam approval voting.

How viable is Trade policy instead of diplomacy? Similar benefit, but we need wealth more than Diplo.
 
I'd like everyone to take a moment to consider that trade seems to be crashing down fairly regularly and it currently accounts for 7 of our per turn wealth. If that were to be halved or go away then we'd go into negative wealth gain and be fairly fucked. Setting aside the fact that for some reason that it'd make Academies wildly impractical.

That's true, we need more salterns and markets to make up for it. Diversify our sources of wealth income! Notably we have a whole bunch of open spaces for salterns and saltern expansion now.
 
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[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)

[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
Yes, things will be harder with the doubled Wealth cost.
Yes, there is no benefit to be gained mechanically from this action.
Even narratively, reforming the Half Exiles pisses off the most important and influential people in our Society.

Yet, it is still the right thing to do.
That is a misconception arising from the stories we read, and their need to appeal to the audience. Risking the many for the sake of the few ("we won't leave ANYBODY behind!") even against desperate odds... but that is because whatever they hypothetical odds may be, in truth the hero always succeeds. In reality, things don't magically work our all the time - when you take risks, you sometimes actually fail.

Risking the many for the sake of the few is not bravery. It is recklessness.
 
Doubling wealth means we effectively can't be a great power anymore. But if that means having an ancient society actually free of slaves - then that achievement, and it IS an achievement, is worth it! Empires rise and fall, who cares how much clay we have. But being special, being better than those around us, that is what counts.

Actually I think it means we have to stay a great power. It's the only way we have any hope of pulling this off. Only high level infrastructure can give us the wealth to survive.
 
Division of Power (PiA Linked)
By preventing the accumulation of power into any single person or faction, the damage of someone throwing a tantrum is mitigated... although it also makes breaking up widespread support harder.
Pros: Faction quest failures have a free negation, requiring two completed quests or Support Faction actions to reset. Unsuppressible failure states become Suppressible
Cons: Addition -1 Stability when suppressing factions.

Patrician and guild currently have a free negation each.

Traders are somewhat harder, but they are only one completed quest (requiring a support faction next turn, then the navy the following turn) or one failed quest followed by a support action away from their free negation. The spite quests are more of an opportunity cost than anything else.
This is all addressed in my post. I don't think we can pass either our current Guild and Trader quests or their next quests if we take the wealth cost doubling option. This is also why I didn't mention taking the Patrician spite quest penalty.

Yes, and we haven't recovered it yet for our Trader Faction and would burn it like I said for the Guild Faction.
 
So I took the time to edit the increases in our action costs if we choose to no longer use half exiles.

Art Patronage [Guild] [Priest] - Wealth of the first and second kind can be used to create wealth of the third kind to the benefit of all
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +3 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, potential innovations x2
*M: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Culture, +1 Tech, +1 Prestige, higher chance of innovations x2

Build Chariots - The vehicle of the elite, chariots are the most effective way of waging war the People know.
*S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, +2 Martial, +1 Culture
*M: -2 Econ, -10 Wealth, +6 Martial, +2 Culture, +1 Prestige

Build Docks [Guild][Trader] - With large numbers of ships being built, a new place to store them all, the goods they bring in, and a place to build them might be a good idea
*S: -1 Econ, +1 Diplo, increased trade power
*M: -2 Econ, -2 Wealth, +3 Diplo, potential for new innovations x2, increased trade power

Build Gymnasium - With the games on people's minds, a place to train for them would be most useful. +2 to Games, +1 non-primary Tolerance
*S: -4 Wealth, -2 Culture, +2 Bonus to Games rolls per turn, +1 non-primary Martial tolerance
*M: -6 Wealth, -3 Culture, +5 Bonus to Games rolls per turn, +1 non-primary Martial tolerance

Build Mills - By harnessing the power of flowing water, work can be done, freeing up considerable amounts of labour
*S: -6 Wealth, -1 Tech, +3 Econ, potential for innovation x2
*M: -8 Wealth, - 1 Tech, +4 Econ, increased potential for innovation x2

Build Roads [Yeomen] - New roads can better tie the people together, so more could be useful. (17/46) +5 Centralization Tolerance
* S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo, other effects
* M: -3 Econ, -4 Wealth, -2 Tech, +2 Centralization, +2 Diplo, other effects

Build Theatre [Urban] - Having a place for the presentation of plays should be a great way to propagate the People's culture and entertain the masses
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, -1 Culture, +4 Culture end of turn, other effects
*M: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Culture, +4 Culture end of turn, +2 Culture next turn, other effects

Develop Intrigue Web [Urban] [Trader] - With contacts in the right places, all sorts of fun things can be done
S: -4 Wealth, -2 Diplo, +1 Intrigue
M: -6 Wealth, -3 Diplo, +2 Intrigue

Efficient Charcoal Kilns [Guild] - With better processes, large Guild controlled kilns can be built to efficiently turn wood into charcoal
*S: -1 Econ, -2 Wealth, -2 Tech, -2 Sustainable Forest used
*M: -2 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, -3 Sustainable Forest used, other effects
Note: Efficient Charcoal production cannot take the total Sustainable Forest usage below 1/2 of the total

Found Mercenary Company
- With new coinage, those who fight for less than savoury reasons can be bargained with more effectively. Paid well they can enhance your forces, or can be hired out to other groups, but beware of having them sit around without pay!
*S: -8 Martial, -2 Wealth per turn in your employ, +1 Wealth per turn if hired out to another group, or 0 Wealth per turn and adds directly to Martial score

Found Trading Post - When doing long distance trading, sometimes having your own infrastructure in place at the other end can be quite useful. Current Target: Steppe Portage (risky)
*S: -3 Diplo, -4 Wealth, -1 Econ, 2 Econ Transfer, -2 Martial, founds trading post to generate Wealth and Diplomacy

Hunt Troublemakers - Those who would do harm to the kingdom rarely plan this openly, so subtle methods are needed to find them and root them out
S: -1 Intrigue, information on problems
M: -1 Intrigue, -4 Wealth, 0 to +1 Stability, information on problems

Increase Cement Production [Guild] – While this material can use the same kilns as for pottery and glassmaking, it benefits more from raw size and throughput than the more precise control of those materials, and the other artisans complain if you take up their space with cement
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -2 Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects
*M: -2 Econ, -8 Wealth, -3 Tech, 1 sustainable forest used, certain projects boosted, other effects

Influence Subordinate - By transferring specialists and teachers to subordinates they can be nudged into behaving more to the liking of the core provinces
*S: -2 Diplo, Transfer 2 Econ, 4 Wealth, 2 Culture, 2 Tech, and 2 Mysticism; influences subordinate culture
*M: -3 Diplo, Transfer 3 Econ, 6 Wealth, 2 Culture, 2 Tech, and 2 Mysticism; significantly influences subordinate culture, +1 Loyalty

Improve Annual Festival - A festival for every season, but their expansion can help put the People at ease and teach good practices.
* S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, +1 Stability, +2 Culture, chance for additional effects
* M: -2 Econ, -4 Wealth, +1 Stability, +4 Culture, chance for additional effects
* Max Stability: Legitimacy - 1

Invite to Games [Traders] - There are some of your neighbours who might be convinced to come (back) to the Games
*S: -1 Diplo to invite most neighbours, -3 to invite a Great Power (currently Khemetri)

Launch Intrigue Mission - Whether inside or out of the kingdom, more offensive uses of intrigue can be used to attempt to gain an advantage
*S: -1 Intrigue, -2 Diplo, -4 Wealth, begins an intrigue event in target location
*S: -2 Intrigue, -3 Diplo, -6 Wealth, begins an intrigue event in target location with higher odds of success

Support Sacred Orders [Priests] – The various sacred orders of specialist warriors provide a number of benefits and special skills, but require considerable investment
*S: -3 Econ, -3 Mysticism, -12 Wealth, +5 Martial, +1 Light Cavalry, +2 Culture, other effects
*M: -4 Econ, -4 Mysticism, -14 Wealth, +7 Martial, +2 Light Cavalry, +3 Culture, other effects

More Warships [Guild][Traders] - Many standard boats are no longer things need to worry about, but warships are something else entirely
*S: -3 Econ, -6 Wealth, -2 Martial, +1 Tech; +1 Naval, additional effects
*M: -3 Econ, -10 Wealth, -3 Martial, +1 Tech; +2 Naval, additional effects

Plant Cash Crops - Drugs [Priests][Yeomen] – Some crops produce peculiar effects on the mind that can be in high demand for spiritual and medical uses. Available: Hemp, Poppies
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +3 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, other effects

Plant Cash Crops - Textiles [Guild][Yeomen] – Planting these water and soil hungry crops can produce large quantities of useful fibres for sturdy ropes and comfortable clothing. Available: Hemp, Cotton, Flax
*S: -3 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +1 Diplo with boats, +1 Econ next turn other effects
*M: -5 Econ, -5 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo with boats, +1 Culture, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

Plant Cash Crops – Luxuries [Yeomen] – These crops are those that make life a bit more vibrant, flavourful, and exciting. Available: Wine, Dyes, Spices
*S: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +2 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects
*S: -5 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects

Proclaim Glory - By using art the King can promote people to trust his decisions; modified by Diplomacy skill
* S: -3 Culture, -1 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +1 Stability, potential +1 Prestige
*M: -6 Culture, -2 Econ, +1 Legitimacy, +2 Stability, +1 Prestige
* Max Stability: Legitimacy

Raise Army - More men can be inducted into the ranks of the warriors every year and not face major food shortfalls
* S: -2 Econ, -6 Wealth, +5 Martial, +1 Culture, potential additional effects
*M: -3 Econ, -5 Wealth, +9 Martial, +2 Culture, potential additional effects
*2M: -4 Econ, -5 Wealth, +2 Culture, founds Martial 10 Mercenary Company

Retraining - When there are more warriors than the People know what to do with, it may be a good idea to find them something else to do
*S: -4 Martial, -2 Econ Expansion, +2 Econ, Culture, and Tech
*M: -6 Martial, -3 Econ Expansion, +3 Econ, Culture, and Tech

Restoration of Order - The people are uncertain, and into that uncertainty bad behaviour can flow. Send in the warriors to reassure people and root out corruption and dissent, restoring the proper function of the People, at the cost of disturbing their confidence that the king has their best interests at heart. Max Stability: Legitimacy-1
* S: Gain 0 to 2 Stability at a cost of -1 Legitimacy
* M: Roll twice, take best result, chance of additional +1 Stability
* modified by Administrative skill

Sailing Mission [Traders] - Boats have proven themselves capable of exploring long distances, so what else might they discover along the shores of the sea? Sailing missions can also locate pirates.
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Salt Gift [Traders] - With the saltern, the People have access to tremendous amounts of salt, which can be used to awe outsiders
*S: -10 Wealth, random amount of Diplomacy, Culture, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each) and the possibility of Mysticism generation
*M: -16 Wealth, random amount of Diplomacy, Culture, Mysticism, and Prestige generated (min. 1 of each)

Study Alchemy [Priests] - Materials can be made to transform their form through special treatment. What wonders can be discovered in this process?
*S: -2 Mysticism, -6 Wealth, +1 Tech, potential new discoveries x2
*M: -4 Mysticism, -8 Wealth, -1 Econ, +1 Tech, increased chance of new discoveries x2

Study Health [Priests] - What secrets of nature can be used to improve the health of the People?
* S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Tech, potential new discoveries x2
*M: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -3 Mysticism, -1 Tech, increased odds of success x2

Study Metal [Priests][Guilds] - Iron and copper, gold and silver, what other secrets are hidden in metal and stone?
* S: -1 Econ, -4 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, +1 Tech, small chance of new insights x2
* M: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, -1 Mysticism, improved chance of new insights x2

Study Stars [Priests] - What secrets do the heavens hold when you study the stars and their motions carefully?
*S: -2 Wealth, +1 Mysticism, gives mid-turn astrological predictions
Cannot be used as a Main action

Support Artisans [Guild] - With the growing importance of skilled artisans to the maintenance of society, additional support may sometimes be needed
*S: -1 Econ, -6 Wealth, +3 Tech, +1 Culture, potential innovations x2
*M: -1 Econ, -10 Wealth, +5 Tech, +1 Culture, higher chance of innovations x2

Diplomatic Mission [Trader] – Contact with the outside world is expensive, but can bring its own rewards
* S: -4 Wealth, additional effects depending on target, +1-2 Diplo
* M: -4 Wealth, -1 Econ, additional effects depending on target, +1 Diplo, +1-3 Diplo end of turn, +0-2 Wealth end of turn

Academy – These centers of learning provide a well-rounded education in topics both general and esoteric, providing a more informed population who are better able to deal with the complexities of the world, although direct reference to the records can be called into question more often. Each level increases RA tolerance by 1, decreases the refund from Libraries by 1 (min. 0), and provides other effects. Each {S} committed consumes 6 Wealth and 3 Culture for 3 progress
Redshore (0/3), Redhills (0/3), Valleyhome (0/3), Sacred Forest (0/3), Blackmouth (0/3), Stallionpen (0/3), Valleyguard (0/3)
Bath [Urban] - Any city with an aqueduct may have a bath. Each {S} committed consumes 6 Wealth and 4 Tech for 3 Progress, and then ties up 1 Sustainable Forest once complete. Completion adds +1 Econ Expansion, increases City Attraction by 1, and decreases disease roll penalty for True Cities further. Redshore (2/6), Stallionpen (0/3), Valleyguard (0/3)
 
Anyway, our options for gaining wealth.

Build Ceramics Kilns [Guild] – With similar demands for high temperature kilns, glass and fine pottery are growing increasingly close together
*S: -2 Econ, -3 Tech, 1 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +3 Culture, chance of new innovations x2
*M: -3 Econ, -4 Tech, 2 Sustainable Forest used, +2 Wealth, +7 Culture, increased chance of new innovations x2

Consumes a lot of forests. With more expensive Kilns, this is not exactly a viable option.

Distribute Land - By reworking the distribution of land, the king can improve tax income and reduce pressures administrative overhead. 0/4 Progress to Min Centralization increase
*S: -1 Centralization, +2 Wealth
*M: -2 Centralization, +5 Wealth, +1 Progress

Heresy

Plant Cash Crops - Drugs [Priests][Yeomen] – Some crops produce peculiar effects on the mind that can be in high demand for spiritual and medical uses. Available: Hemp, Poppies
*S: -2 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +3 Wealth
*M: -3 Econ, -3 Econ Expansion, +1 Mysticism, +7 Wealth, other effects

Plant Cash Crops - Textiles [Guild][Yeomen] – Planting these water and soil hungry crops can produce large quantities of useful fibres for sturdy ropes and comfortable clothing. Available: Hemp, Cotton, Flax
*S: -3 Econ, -4 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +1 Diplo with boats, +1 Econ next turn other effects
*M: -5 Econ, -5 Econ Expansion, +7 Wealth, +2 Diplo with boats, +1 Culture, +1 Econ next turn, other effects

Plant Cash Crops – Luxuries [Yeomen] – These crops are those that make life a bit more vibrant, flavourful, and exciting. Available: Wine, Dyes, Spices
*S: -2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, +2 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects
*S: -5 Econ, -2 Econ Expansion, +6 Wealth, +2 Culture, other effects

All labor intensive. Using them as basis for the economy will destroy reforms.

Survey Lands [Yeomen][Trader] - What interesting discoveries are within the People's lands?
* S: Potential new discoveries
* M: -1 Econ, improved odds of success

Depends on being lucky.
 
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Except that's impossible.

Except the whole point is the practice is being abused, that's why this whole thing came up. The textbook use isn't how they're actually used. That said it's not 25%, 10-15% was the actual number.

About 10 to 15% of the population at any given time. The most common reason is "annoyed the local authorities", followed by "public violence" and "unlicensed prostitution". Those last two tend to be common among current or former half-exiles.
 
no, each faction has a negation, we can negate both the gulds and traders, for example, but not the guilds twice
We don't have it recovered for the Traders yet, and I'm saying I expect four failures to lead to two penalties. Doubling our Wealth costs is a massive obstacle for passing Guild and Trader Spite Quests.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)


[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [PP] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[X] [PP] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
 
That is a misconception arising from the stories we read, and their need to appeal to the audience. Risking the many for the sake of the few ("we won't leave ANYBODY behind!") even against desperate odds... but that is because whatever they hypothetical odds may be, in truth the hero always succeeds. In reality, things don't magically work our all the time - when you take risks, you sometimes actually fail.

Risking the many for the sake of the few is not bravery. It is recklessness.
So, you would prefer to crush the few under than many instead?
You would prefer that the many become slowly corroded, losing all that is Good and Just inside of them, until they believe that the few have always been crushed, and deserve to always be crushed?

Because that is every other option besides just praying to the Dice.
Either we risk slavery, become more Xenophobic, or become hypocrites who use and abuse the Law to their own ends, not caring about Justice.

I shall not risk the degradation and corruption of the Many by oppressing the Few.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)

[X] [Purity] The Puritans broke (Lose the Purity trait, possible loss of the prohibition on slavery)

Our standard of living is far higher than any of the surrounding countries and we are the people driving technological and social progress the two greatest long term solutions to human suffering in existence I refuse to sacrifice all the that we have built and the long term benefits it grants us just because people are to impatient to wait for us to advance to the level where abolishing the half exile system (which is still better that slavery if not as much as we;d like) becomes practical.
 
Risking the many for the sake of the few is not bravery. It is recklessness.
If this was real life, i'd consider such an act, utter stupidity And reckless
Its one thing to do it slowly over time, but all at once while we are spending a large amount of wealth with trade going off and on right after a plague is... a strange strategy
So, you would prefer to crush the few under than many instead?
You would prefer that the many become slowly corroded, losing all that is Good and Just inside of them, until they believe that the few have always been crushed, and deserve to always be crushed?

Because that is every other option besides just praying to the Dice.
Either we risk slavery, become more Xenophobic, or become hypocrites who use and abuse the Law to their own ends, not caring about Justice.

I shall not risk the degradation and corruption of the Many by oppressing the Few.
Slippery slope arguments are REALLY unconvincing.
 
Explain. It only says that suppression has an increased Stability cost, not that ignoring results in loss of Stability. If anything it says that it lets us easily ignore quests.
Okay, my initial argument pretty much was "Ignoring those quest is not as free and great as you make it out to be."

Suppressing a single faction now will cost us -2 stability. There will soon be 3 factions with their spite quests.

I have to say- I lack necessary info for a more detailed argument against.
So I need to ask: how does ignoring quests work exactly?
Can you ignore each quest once? Or is it a certain amount of ignores, or just one ignore?
How many quests can we ignore right now before having to reset the counter?
Are we going to finish our current quests, or are we going to ignore them too, because of various reasons?

I just want to know how exactly is this not going to result in a terrible clusterfuck, mechanically and narratively.
 
[X] [Dam] Make it as big and impressive as possible (2 Wealth and 2 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 3 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)

As I've said before: If we are to be pure, let us be Pure Ymaryn. We are the same people who gave away food in the middle of a drought and sent a plague cure to a civilization that stood for everything we hate. If we can cleanse ourselves of the corruption that's festered at the heart of our society for countless years, we will emerge stronger than before.
 
We double our wealth costs on everything, we NEED markets. We'll be down to +2 Wealth/turn, and we'd die as soon as trade disruption or any number of similar things hit us.

Each market is 3 progress for +2 wealth/turn. Markets will cost us 6 wealth to build manually, making it virtually impossible to do so. We will be required to use Infrastructure policies to build them.

Every 1.5 Infrastructure policies is worth +2 Wealth/turn/turn. That is, every turn it will build Markets so that we gain +2 Wealth/turn up until we hit +10 Wealth/turn (all True Cities have markets).

Our standard of living is far higher than any of the surrounding countries and we are the people driving technological and social progress the two greatest long term solutions to human suffering in existence I refuse to sacrifice all the that we have built and the long term benefits it grants us just because people are to impatient to wait for us to advance to the level where abolishing the half exile system (which is still better that slavery if not as much as we;d like) becomes practical.
It is practical. Barely, but it is. It makes some actions unusable, but we don't need to do those.
But we need to pay for it, and it's not cheap. We need those infrastructure policies to pay for everything.
 
[X] [Dam] Move to the bigger but more useful proposal (1 Wealth and 1 Tech per action added to remaining costs, requires an additional 2 actions to complete)
[X] [Purity] If slavery is so bad in comparison, maybe even the half-exiles need to be addressed (-1 Stability, the next Patrician, Guild, and Trader quests are all spite quests, all Wealth costs are doubled going forward)
 
The main takeaway here is that the advancement of our internal logistics would be massively slowed, and military buildup would become very difficult - the most efficient way much of the time would be to lean hard on stat positive actions for several turns to overflow into Martial, then hold very tightly indeed onto that Martial.
Mmm.

We might want a Martial passive policy, in that case. Or two.
 
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