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Paths of Civilization

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*glances upthread*

I can't help but feel this quest is shifting the Overton window on what is infraction worthy and letting smaller stuff slide because of it. ;P
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forest (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
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BungieONI said:
Hmm if we are at 13 Wealth next main turn, we can spend 8 Wealth without going into Guild Panic mode.


[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)
[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)

I'm not gonna look at this too hard, I think we should be fine resource wise to do what ever we need to next turn except maybe the March.
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I checked the numbers, Expand Econ at this point in time is largely unnecessary. We will still have 20+ Econ to work with next turn without it. I recommend we grab Poppies to ensure that we work with at least 16 Wealth for next turn as we need it for the Navy and any additional projects.
Raichu1972 said:
we're going to need to keep our econ up to build the Dam and Canal.
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I checked the numbers on both. Even with the Annexes, we end up with 21 Economy for next turn. Even if you drop everything else, including the Trader Quest, the Priest Quest, and the Spirit Channel March, and go full out on the dam, you still have plenty of Economy
 
Ok, can people tell me why they are choosing Crack Down over Root Out? I think the original arguments were that Root Out would get rid of the trait, while Crack Down tempers it?

But from what AN clarified, our people are going to go out and vigorously debate Purity as part of Root Out, specifically the parts about anything foreign being bad. The cleanliness part will remain untouched, which would get us our tempered trait that people wanted with Purity.

On the other hand, Crack Down doesn't address the issue, it instead smothers the symptoms of that issue.
 
Citino said:
Ok, can people tell me why they are choosing Crack Down over Root Out? I think the original arguments were that Root Out would get rid of the trait, while Crack Down tempers it?

But from what AN clarified, our people are going to go out and vigorously debate Purity as part of Root Out, specifically the parts about anything foreign being bad. The cleanliness part will remain untouched, which would get us our tempered trait that people wanted with Purity.

On the other hand, Crack Down doesn't address the issue, it instead smothers the symptoms of that issue.
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I intensely dislike the possible outcomes of what could happen if it goes "sideways" as he mentioned.

Sounds like a really shit time afterwards. But that's pretty much it.
 
Citino said:
Ok, can people tell me why they are choosing Crack Down over Root Out? I think the original arguments were that Root Out would get rid of the trait, while Crack Down tempers it?

But from what AN clarified, our people are going to go out and vigorously debate Purity as part of Root Out, specifically the parts about anything foreign being bad. The cleanliness part will remain untouched, which would get us our tempered trait that people wanted with Purity.

On the other hand, Crack Down doesn't address the issue, it instead smothers the symptoms of that issue.
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Because look at the rest of it
Academia Nut said:
Due to the low amount of voting before the lock there will be no update tonight. Don't get the thread locked again.

"Root and branch" here refers to a combination of political violence to execute, exile, and physically isolate a number of the major puritan priests and ringleaders while aggressively politically debating and isolating the root philosophies. Innocents and people undeserving of the punishments dealt it well get caught up in the process, but it is not intended to be a frenzied purge, although it could go sideways.
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This is going way too far and includes hurting innocents in the process.

AN has said nothing about Crack Down, so where are you getting that Crack Down does not address the issue?
 
Sivantic said:
I checked the numbers, Expand Econ at this point in time is largely unnecessary. We will still have 20+ Econ to work with next turn without it. I recommend we grab Poppies to ensure that we work with at least 16 Wealth for next turn as we need it for the Navy and any additional projects.
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Expan Econ will overflow directly into Wealth, though.
 
BungieONI said:
I intensely dislike the possible outcomes of what could happen if it goes "sideways" as he mentioned.

Sounds like a really shit time afterwards. But that's pretty much it.
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I took that as, "As always, things have a chance to go poorly." AN basically told us exactly how to solve the Purity issue, and now we have an option that is exactly all the things he said to look for. It won't necessarily be easy, but not attempting to firmly solve this seems overly timid.
 
BungieONI said:
I intensely dislike the possible outcomes of what could happen if it goes "sideways" as he mentioned.

Sounds like a really shit time afterwards. But that's pretty much it.
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I find it unlikely we will lose the debates. Our hero king made frequent arguments against the Puritans, and those would have likely been public.

It could go badly, but so could a lot of other things. And honestly, how else do you hope to fix Purity? Cracking down is very unlikely to change the trait. My RL example of the KKK is pretty apt, imo, since these sorts of issues don't go away just because you enforce the law. We'll get stuck dealing with another outburst, one we might not catch early like we did here, and be stuck with an even worse decision.
 
BungieONI said:
I intensely dislike the possible outcomes of what could happen if it goes "sideways" as he mentioned.

Sounds like a really shit time afterwards. But that's pretty much it.
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I personally think that Purity is already giving us a shit time.
We've had a Patrician persecuting monotheists for not farming right without actually telling them how to farm right.
Priests covertly attacking the vulnerable in our society (half exiles, prostitutes, etc)
Increased Xenophobia (Puritans believe the people will be better off isolated, and go after foreigners or people who work with foreigners)

And these are just the things that we found with a secondary action.
I would rather such a toxic ideology be stamped from the people, and we have to tear them out root and branch to do so.
 
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Spectrum said:
*glances upthread*

I can't help but feel this quest is shifting the Overton window on what is infraction worthy and letting smaller stuff slide because of it. ;P
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Well lots of small things need to be allowed to slide if you want something resembling reality in a quest like this, because Real Life fucking sucks.
 
Draft of some appealing choices while I look over the tally
[] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)
[] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)
 
OTE="Citino, post: 9594381, member: 11043"]


Also, when did we get concrete? Was that what we got in the last update?[/QUOTE]

My great unholy ***********, this is awesome news.

We probably aren't producing nearly enough of it yet, but it'll be really useful.


Choose a Megaproject Bonus

[] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)

[] [MP] Royal Investment (+1-2 Free Progress to Dam Project)

[X] [MP] Expand Market Further (Redshore Level 3 Market 6/18)

[X] [MP] Attract More People to City (Redshore Level 2 Block Housing 6/6)

[X] [MP] Spread the Wealth Around (All Subordinates Receive +0-1 Loyalty)


Internal Trouble

[] [Int] Expel the One God followers before they can betray you (-2 Intrigue, +1 Stability, reduces potential enemy Intrigue actions, ???)

[] [Int] Ignore the situation (???)

[X] [Int] Crack down on the puritans (-2 Intrigue, -1 to +1 Stability, ???)

[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)


External Trouble

[] [Ext] The Storm People could use mercenaries, and you have some

-[] [Ext] SY: Red Banner

-[] [Ext] SY: Dragon Banner

-[] [Ext] SY: Blood Rain Banner

[] [Ext] Freehills could use mercenaries, and you have some

-[] [Ext] FH: Red Banner

-[] [Ext] FH: Dragon Banner

-[] [Ext] FH: Blood Rain Banner

[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)

[] [Ext] They are an obvious threat to you and your Games partners (Main War Mission)

-[] [Ext] Change to Offensive Policy

-[] [Ext] Change to Mass Levy Policy

[] [Ext] Keep sending treasure to the Forhuch (Main Targeted Salt Gift)

[] [Ext] Stay home, farm (Main Expand Econ)

I think our mercs could use some time to repair and regain loyalty in the core, I favor holding them back, maybe hire them out to fight against the Highlanders later.

React

[X] [React] Expand Great Hall (2xGreat Hall Annexes)

[X] [React] Improve Navy (Main More Warships)

[] [React] Improve Horse Valley Temple (2xSec Temple Actions)

[] [React] Improve Soil Quality (Main Black Soil)

[] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)

[] [React] Farm (Main Expand Econ, cannot take with switching to Mass Levy)


PSN

[] [PSN] Sec Plant Hemp (-1 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Main Plant Hemp (-2 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Sec Plant Cotton (-1 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Main Plant Cotton (-2 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Sec Plant Poppies (-1 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Main Plant Poppies (-2 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Sec Expand Forests (-1 Cent + Costs)

[X] [PSN] Main Expand Forests (-2 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Sec Expand Econ (-1 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

[] [PSN] Nothing

We will need those forests without our forestry policies active


Also unrelated to everything that's going on, my display of SV has been doing some seriously weird stuff, specifically the display has been jumping a distance up the scroll bar every time I hit Delete, Backspace or Enter. Count how many times you do that while commenting, I've had to resort to writing my comment out on word and pasting it in.
Does anyone know how to fix this?
 
bluefur87 said:
and -4 tech...
We might want to actually make sure this overflow works. I think it will if we also take the +10 wealth option, which has a better chance of passing than the scout option at this point.
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Nah, it's -2 after refunds, and we're overflowing the bottom trio of stats at the moment, so it'll probably just max out again. We're probably fine on tech no matter what we pick.

edit:

Wait no, I'm dumb. It's -0 now, isn't it? We had 1 tech refund before Governor's Palaces, and we gain 1 more from that. Because of how Main Economy works, refunds apply twice, so it's now Tech neutral.
 
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Ghostdevil said:
Well lots of small things need to be allowed to slide if you want something resembling reality in a quest like this, because Real Life fucking sucks.
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I'm not sure how Real Life sucking has any relevance to posters being able to get away with shittier behavior overall because a few big boys take all the heat going way overboard.
 
[X] [MP] Trade Excitement (+10 Wealth, +1 Stability from Guild demands)
[X] [Int] Attempt to tear out these maniacs, root and branch (-2 Intrigue, -1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, -1 RA, ???)
[X] [Ext] Find out more about what the Highlanders are up to (Main Trade Mission)
[X] [React] Need more scouts (Sec More Blackbirds + Sec More Spiritbonded)
[X] [PSN] Main Expand Econ (-2 Cent + Costs)

Sivantic said:
AN has said nothing about Crack Down, so where are you getting that Crack Down does not address the issue?
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Crack Down is going to do everything you're worried about. We have Iron Age levels of law and justice. No matter what, innocent people will get squished if we attempt to deal with Puritan violence. People will be executed or exiled for murder, sedition, arson, and a dozen other severe crimes. We've known for a long time that corruption and abuse is a problem in our system. Literally anything we do will result in people suffering unnecessarily. Half-Exiles are basically slaves in rural areas, right? The same underlying issue that lets Patricians do that would let them redirect part of Crack Down or Tear Out to hit the undeserving.

The difference between Crack Down and Tear Out is that Crack Down is not coupled with any debates or any other type of re-education. Both of them will solve the problem, but Crack Down does nothing to actually change the underlying belief system of the Puritans. The symptoms of the problem would stop, but the disease is still there. We need to really engage with Purity as a social belief if we want the trait to change and we're not doing that with Crack Down, that merely papers over the cracks.

Edit: Votes.
 
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