Cute, See that cant work without you know FUCKING ROADS, we lack the interconnectivity to do this and considering this threads lack of will to ever do so we never will.
The only way you could get a change that will last more then a single generation without a road network, is to disband them.
You know how you get lasting change? by making it the law. You know how you get laws made in this day and age? GET THE KINGS ATTENTION ON IT.
So here we have a chance to get the kings attention on the issue. He'll dig around for the abuses, maybe using that fancy new intrigue stat, and ideally, use the law to unfuck the system and get our half-exiles in a much better situation. and then, when we DO have good roads, an Enforce Justice will go out and say 'hey, you jackoffs aren't following the law!"
Just because we can't perfectly implement change across our polity NOW is no reason not to lay the groundwork. The Ymaryn are quite familiar with projects that take more than one lifetime.
 
Cute, See that cant work without you know FUCKING ROADS, we lack the interconnectivity to do this and considering this threads lack of will to ever do so we never will.
The only way you could get a change that will last more then a single generation without a road network, is to disband them.
Same way we did the law and taxes. Create a code of conduct.
We don't want to strengthen the Urban Poor too much. Rule by mob is fickle at best.
That it is, note how the winning vote increases their power.
 
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[X] [Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than fullsubordinates)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increasesLoyalty while active at less than fullsubordinates) x2
[X] [Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)

[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4727 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 118179-118311]
##### NetTally 1.9.9
Task: Art
[16][Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[11][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[1][Art] Do charcoalers and the like really need to be experts? (Efficient Charcoal Kilns become cheaper, no longer considered Guild actions, ???)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Policy
[19][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[19][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[18][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[15][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[9][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[7][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn)
[7][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[6][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x2
[5][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x1
[5][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x2
[4][Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn)
[3][Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn) x1
[2][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn)
[2][Policy] Infrastructure (+1 Free Progress to an infrastructure project (Aqueduct, governor's palace, saltern, etc.)/turn) x3
[2][Policy] Trade (+1 Wealth/turn) x2
[2][Policy] Expansion (So long as there is land to expand into, +1 Econ Expansion/turn, reduces threshold to produce new provinces the longer active)
[1][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn) x2
[1][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x2
[1][Policy] Armament (+1 Martial/turn) x3
[1][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns) x3
[1][Policy] Defence (+1 significant walls/turn)
[1][Policy] Industry (+1 Tech/turn)
[1][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x3
[1][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x4

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: HK
[19][HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[16][HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
[5][HK] Offer to send military aid
-[4][HK] Gold only
-[3][HK] Offensive Policy
-[2][HK] Mass Levy
Total No. of Voters: 33

Kek, with all this arguing about either Diplomacy or Skullduggery, it looks like we are going for both :V
 
We need 18 infrastructure progress to complete our quests within the next 3 turns. We currently gain 5 progress/turn.

If we don't take an additional infrastructure passive (raising it to 7/turn) , it's extremely likely that either the Free Cities or our province actions will take it. The former is incredibly inefficient due to it not being doubled by The Law. The latter costs us 2 stat points per progress as well as the action cost itself.

Either is wasteful. It's not going to be crippling by any means, but it is incredibly wasteful not to take the 3rd Infrastructure.
 
The best way to end the half-exile caste system is to either reduce the demand for unskilled labor, or to significantly increase the demand for skilled labor. Converting sanitation to a skilled labor job does both, and comes with the additional benefit that half-exiles will no longer be associated with literal shit.

It is an excellent reform that we can propagate to our entire polity, improves the quality of life and social status of our half-exiles, and will make future reform much easier.
 
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x3
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x4
[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[X] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[X] [HK] Offensive Policy

This is equal to a influence subordinate main to all our vassals every ten turns, so why not vote for it? besides such a commitment should convince our Edges that the Core does in fact care for them. Plus it should help deal with our connectivity issues.

Art is finally get started on fixing the Slavery with Extra Steps that refugees and those with social connections have to deal with.

Highlander kingdom is to correct our borders so we are less exposed down south.
We do have some other concerns, you know.

We need 18 infrastructure progress to complete our quests within the next 3 turns. We currently gain 5 progress/turn.

If we don't take an additional infrastructure passive (raising it to 7/turn) , it's extremely likely that either the Free Cities or our province actions will take it. The former is incredibly inefficient due to it not being doubled by The Law. The latter costs us 2 stat points per progress as well as the action cost itself.

Either is wasteful. It's not going to be crippling by any means, but it is incredibly wasteful not to take the 3rd Infrastructure.
That's just a single secondary and four stats, it's not 'incredibly wasteful'
 
How come there aren't more people voting to review the half-exile system? This seems like exactly the sort of thing we should do to reduce the level of assholeness of our civilisation, even if there are problems with doing so in the short term. Our history shows us that long term goodness over short term profit is the best way to go.
 
The best way to end the half-exile caste system is to either reduce the demand for unskilled labor, or to significantly increase the demand for skilled labor. Converting sanitation to a skilled labor job does both, and comes with the additional benefit that half-exiles will no longer be associated with literal shit.

It is an excellent reform that we can propagate to our entire polity, improves the quality of life and social status of our half-exiles, and will make future reform much easier.

So the choice is to make it a skilled labor to gradually reduce the stigma, or to attack the root of problems. Either way, we progresses to getting better treatment for half-exiles.
 
We do have some other concerns, you know.


That's just a single secondary and four stats, it's not 'incredibly wasteful'
Yeah, but they are all recent. Vassals being loose and unconnected has been a problem since we had them, and we still haven't done a single influence action.

A main influence is:
M: -3 Diplo, Transfer 3 Econ, Wealth, Culture, Tech, and Mysticism; significantly influences subordinate culture, +1 Loyalty

At 14 vassals that is a main influence action each 10 turn:

18x14= 252 in pure stats
Divide that by 10 turns makes it 25.2 stats per turn all four are active.
What other Combo generates this much again? Plus all the narrative effects of trying to bind the whole country together instead of them just paying lip service to us.
Hell we lost the western Ymaryn because we kept putting this off.
 
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[X][Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)

[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
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Okay, now to assess and to vote:
[] [Art] Do charcoalers and the like really need to be experts? (Efficient Charcoal Kilns become cheaper, no longer considered Guild actions, ???)

This makes the plan to ramp up on infrastructure much more logical, since cheaper kilns solve a lot of the fuel choke.
At the cost of social benefit because it means we just assigned a skilled labor to an untouchable job, which would swell the numbers of half exiles and their abuse.

[] [Art] Ignore it (Black Soil production gains an additional Wealth cost)

Black Soil now must buy fuel from the kilns.
Would make it a lot less popular and solves nothing.

[] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)

This cuts half exile demand by moving charcoal production, leather production and other unpleasant but skilled jobs into normal jobs, so that it moves back towards the penal sentence it's supposed to be. We pay it in skilled labor, which is going to make us want an Industry passive in the future.
Expected affected actions:
-Black Soil will still use half exiles to collect the waste, but the actual burning and cooking of the black soil becomes a professional work.
-Efficient Charcoal Kilns will be using better paid ashers. Move Econ cost into Tech. Higher innovation chances.
-Expand Forests will cost Tech to produce the Black Soil needed to convert wild forest to unnaturally verdant Ymaryn forestry. May affect the Econ cost, may not.
-Study Metal/Alchemy will require Tech cost to employ staff to handle tailings rather than leave it to half exiles.

While we don't have a lot of information on crime rates, if you move leatherworkers and ashers out of half exiles, you'll have a work demand for garbage and corpse disposal disposal that is much closer to the natural crime rate.

[] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)

You know, you physically can't pay enough people to service an urban civilization's waste and corpse disposal until the internal combustion engine. This will spark an event chain, which I'm not sure we can afford to ride.
This is veekie, the "Lets YOLO this admin issue and eat the damage for the benefits, it will be a good pain" guy telling you that this is to hot to YOLO.
We can't afford a crisis chain right now.

For passive policies, I'd note that with the Myranyn Reforms, we're looking at the possibility os losing the ability to gain Econ during war. Better offset that City upkeep.
Two city supports will give us positive Econ income again, in case we need to activate the Myranyn Horde Mode for more than one turn(like say, vs Nomads).
One vassal support to make it from impossibly far away to merely far away.
One Skullduggery passive to generate that Intrigue up.

And your king was okay with because it enhanced his own power as your crown is closely tied to divine investment in the right to rule... right up until a splinter faction of these radicals decided that he was offering too many consolatory words towards the priests of other gods, and even began proclaiming that those who refuse to acknowledge their One God as the Only God are being mislead by charlatans and deceivers.

And this is why we don't put the Temples under the King. Too much hot shit.

"Well, even if they know we are a bit weak in standing warriors, they probably can't appreciate what we have in the armouries. We could send over aid, and then just keep sending aid, until we've basically occupied their territory for them, and even if they have surprises in store for us they would be powerless to resist the raw numbers," the advisor explained.

"Devious. I like. Probably not going to do it, but I like that sort of thinking," Myranyn said while mentally making a note to get the man transferred somewhere with less authority.
This is a dirty play, but a very realpolitik one for a HK landgrab. If you know, we could digest them all :V

Okay, refer to the prophecy here:
Astrological Prediction: Those who help those in need will find themselves aided (90)

[] [HK] Ignore them

Looks weak. Enables monotheists to spread and become a future headache(well they are going to be a future headache, this makes it happen faster).

[] [HK] Offer tribute to patch over the issue and improve their king's standing (Targeted Sec Salt Gift)

Looks weak(and rich). Also not viable because our Patricians have decided they're going to burn our wealth for pony.

[] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[] [HK] Gold only

Helps with the patrician quest demands on wealth. But doesn't match the prophecy.

-[] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

Matches the prophecy. Shows strength.

[] [HK] Offer to send military aid
-[] [HK] No policy change

Matches the prophecy...sends over all of 6 Martial. Much impressive. Very wow.

-[] [HK] Offensive Policy

Matches the prophecy and aims to impress them with the depth of our reserves. Will probably generate a wealth crisis next turn though.

-[] [HK] Mass Levy

"Hey lets turn this aid mission into a landgrab".
Sets our economy on fire in exchange for becoming super saiyan.
Land we can't hold, subordinate we can't administer, and it's not even strategically valuable land!
Pass

[X] [Art] Sanitation is too important not to entrust to experts! (Several actions gain or increase their Tech costs, +1 Urban Poor power, ???)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn) x2
[X] [Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates) x1
[X] [Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X] [Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)

My vote. It's one more City Support than everyone else is going for, but I will point you to this:
Myranyn Reforms Result: Mass Levy Active Policy
Mass Levy
- While this policy is active, the sum of Econ + Wealth + (Sum of Ironworks Levels) x2 added to Temp Martial Score one combat phase after policy activated, but Expand Econ and most Wealth generating actions disabled while this policy active. Otherwise acts as the Offensive Policy

To use Mass Levy policy at all, we need our passive Econ and Wealth income to be positive. Or we get to choose to starve or take nomads up the ass.
 
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The best way to end the half-exile caste system is to either reduce the demand for unskilled labor, or to significantly increase the demand for skilled labor. Converting sanitation to a skilled labor job does both, and comes with the additional benefit that half-exiles will no longer be associated with literal shit.

It is an excellent reform that we can propagate to our entire polity, improves the quality of life and social status of our half-exiles, and will make future reform much easier.
Except we are not trying to remove the demand of unskilled labor, we are trying to better their state of living. As is, they are pseudo-hereditary caste of untouchables. We want to stop that view of them.

Yes they do dirty work, no they are not lesser for it.
 
Eh we already have laws against the abuse of half exiles its the lack of roads and temples letting our nore isolated settlements get away with it. We always had the tools to address IC but we might as well tear off the bandage now since we shown we won't get to max roads easily.
 
The best way to end the half-exile caste system is to either reduce the demand for unskilled labor, or to significantly increase the demand for skilled labor. Converting sanitation to a skilled labor job does both, and comes with the additional benefit that half-exiles will no longer be associated with literal shit.

It is an excellent reform that we can propagate to our entire polity, improves the quality of life and social status of our half-exiles, and will make future reform much easier.
Actually examining and removing the root of the problem - that our half-exile system is severely flawed - is a more worthwhile endeavour. It will not only make it a better system, it will provide an example for the People to use to better effect positive social change in the future and prevent negative social values from developing. It will not be easy but it will very much be worth it.
 
I'm more amused that for all the pages of people arguing for forestry policies and the desperate situation of our fuel consumption, Forestry is going to lose.
For right now, as long as we build a Kiln every turn, we're so far ahead of our forestry usage it's kinda ridiculous.

Especially since our Infrastructure policies (a major consumer of forests) are going to be tied up doing 9 progress for the Marketplace quest, which it looks like we're gonna have to supplement with either actions or Free City Infrastructure policies.
 
[X] [Art] The entire half-exile practice should be reviewed (-1 Stability, ???)
[X][Policy] Diplomacy (+1 Diplo/turn)
[X][Policy] Skullduggery (+1 Intrigue/turn, -2 Diplo)
[X][Policy] Special: Vassal Support (+1 Subordinate while active, increases Loyalty while active at less than full subordinates)
[X][Policy] Special: Forestry (+1 Sustainable Forest and -1 Econ Expansion/2 turns)
[X][Policy] City Support (2 True Cities have their maintenance paid for each turn)
[X] [HK] Offer to let them buy the Banner Company contracts
-[X] [HK] Show goodwill (Pay upkeep costs yourself but gain Diplomacy instead for duration of hire)
 
You know, you physically can't pay enough people to service an urban civilization's waste and corpse disposal until the internal combustion engine.
We don't need to pay people. We have corvee labour. The end result of this chain will be less Infrastructure policy going into extended projects and instead going into waste and corpse disposal. Fixing or at least mitigating this issue is something we can and most definitely should do.
 
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