If a city pays for itself (-2 econ cost, +2 econ passive, +1 Culture) then is that really a crisis? It does mean we're not getting as much benefit from them as we'd hope, but it's not really a crisis.
Yes, ideally we'd fix the problem. But eh, we have more important things to worry about.
Think about it this way - if we had an effect that canceled our ability to use Active Province Policies, would that be a crisis? After all, the provinces are still "paying for themselves"; we just don't get to have access to the same surplus we used to? If you answered "yes", then this is the same thing, just with cities.
SECOND SON CRISIS - Provokes our neighbors, risking war. Can cost stability, legitimacy, and martial each turn. REGIONAL LIQUIDITY CRISIS - Disrupts economic activity. Costs Econ, Wealth, and/or Stability each turn. Pirate Presence - Disrupts trade. Costs 6 Wealth each turn. Urban Plague - Leaves us without cities. Currently saves us 3 Econ per turn in upkeep, at the cost of 2 Culture and 3 Passive Policies each turn. Breakaway State Woes - A breakaway state has been founded between us and the Storm Tribes, and they are just about to go to war with the Storm Tribes. May drag us into the war, or may just hand a large fraction of our techs to the Storm Tribes on a silver platter. Econ Deficit - We have no passive Econ generation, and are currently consuming a minimum of 2 Econ per turn from our Guild actions and 2 Econ from continuing Ironworks. This is putting a severe hamper in what we can do, despite us having plenty of other stats. It also leaves us vunerable to Event Damage, and makes us unable to handle refugees. Religious Reformation - We've just founded the first organized religion in the world, and several of our vassal states are already practicing it. We are going to want/need to start fully transitioning to this religion at some point. This can bring opportunities with it, but also disruption. Factions Demands- Our factions all want something, and while success can bring rewards, failure can cost us.
SECOND SON CRISIS - Provokes our neighbors, risking war. Can cost stability, legitimacy, and martial each turn. ECON SINKHOLE - Currently losing 6 Econ per turn; will increase to up to 12 Econ per turn by the time we are up to 7 cities. Liable to cause death by lack-of-econ, especially coupled with other econ expenditures and the econ-drain from our Breakaway State. Breakaway State Woes - The Western Ymaryn have solidified into their own kingdom. This has a chance to cause defection among our own subordinates (particularly the Western Wall), drains our econ every time we lose stability (which is rather often given our current problems), and may eventually cause other issues, though it may present future opportunities as well. Trelli Woes - The Trelli have fallen. We have two choices here. First we have to step in and take control (despite having no martial to play with, and actual CIVIL WAR if we fail), and then deal with the additional strain from having to control such volatile territory. Second, we can suppress our traders and accept Trell falling to whoever might step in - which is likely to be either the Pirate Clans or a competitor like the Khem. Problems abound either way. Pirate Presence - Disrupts trade. Costs 3 Wealth each turn. Urban Plague - Leaves us without cities. Currently saves us 6 Econ per turn in upkeep, at the cost of 2 Culture and 3 Passive Policies each turn. Blackbird Migration- Well, it isn't actually a migration. But if we go down to 0 Martial (which we are at serious risk of doing), we lose this sacred order. Rather a shame to do that after we literally starved for it. Religious Reformation - We've just founded the first organized religion in the world, and have started making it our official religion. While this brings opportunities with it, is can also bring disruption. Factions Demands- Our factions all want something, and while success can bring rewards, failure can cost us.
@Academia Nut Turning off bread is possible? It seems likely to piss off the urban poor if we did that, though. So it will cost us a stability, but in return save our econ.
Blackbird Migration - Well, it isn't actually a migration. But if we go down to 0 Martial (which we are at serious risk of doing), we lose this sacred order. Rather a shame to do that after we literally starved for it.
Just for reference, here is everything we are juggling right now: SECOND SON CRISIS - Provokes our neighbors, risking war. Can cost stability, legitimacy, and martial each turn. ECON SINKHOLE - Currently losing 6 Econ per turn; will increase to up to 12 Econ per turn by the time we are up to 7 cities. Liable to cause death by lack-of-econ, especially coupled with other econ expenditures and the econ-drain from our Breakaway State. Breakaway State Woes - The Western Ymaryn have solidified into their own kingdom. This has a chance to cause defection among our own subordinates (particularly the Western Wall), drains our econ every time we lose stability (which is rather often given our current problems), and may eventually cause other issues, though it may present future opportunities as well. Trelli Woes - The Trelli have fallen. We have two choices here. First we have to step in and take control (despite having no martial to play with, and actual CIVIL WAR if we fail), and then deal with the additional strain from having to control such volatile territory. Second, we can suppress our traders and accept Trell falling to whoever might step in - which is likely to be either the Pirate Clans or a competitor like the Khem. Problems abound either way. Pirate Presence - Disrupts trade. Costs 3 Wealth each turn. Urban Plague - Leaves us without cities. Currently saves us 6 Econ per turn in upkeep, at the cost of 2 Culture and 3 Passive Policies each turn. Blackbird Migration - Well, it isn't actually a migration. But if we go down to 0 Martial (which we are at serious risk of doing), we lose this sacred order. Rather a shame to do that after we literally starved for it. Religious Reformation - We've just founded the first organized religion in the world, and have started making it our official religion. While this brings opportunities with it, is can also bring disruption. Factions Demands- Our factions all want something, and while success can bring rewards, failure can cost us.
Look, people are just excited because this is the first chance we've had to address the ingrained sexism of our People in like, a thousand years. It's understandable to be eager and want to see where it goes.
He's convinced that it's shifting to an Urban Poor+Crossbow based army.
I suspect he's right, but I don't want Both to win far more than I care about which one wins since that gives us a solid chance of breaking next turn. Honestly we don't have anywhere near enough information to make a good informed decision about it anyway.
WHAT?! The Patrician option is currently winning?!
@veekie's right then. The solution to the crisis is not going to be found in giving the Patricians even more influence over the military. Not only does it push us further and further towards a plutocracy but it exacerbates our issues with the Second Sons. Giving up the few positions we have for advancements to the Patricians is not going to go over well with the Yeoman. Heck, the idea of training women for war is an afterthought. The reason the reformers are making that suggestion is so that when the Patricians run out of additional sons, they can use their daughters to dominate the military even more. It even says that:
Why is it that we're so cozy with the Patricians? We've fought them every single time on Distributing Land, but now when it comes to Military Posts we're going to give those to the Patricians? They already dominate our society socially and politically. If we keep giving them more and more power, we're just going to end up in an all out oligarchy. Instead of being "Greek", we'd end up closer and closer to Sparta and that is not a good comparison. The only reason Sparta could do what they did was because they occupied and constantly declared war on their own servile classes: the Helots. I do not want to head in that direction. If the Patricians hold the law, the administration, the Kingship AND the military, what's preventing them from decadence and tyranny?
The Urban Poor are at our mercy for fighting. They depend on us supplying them food, weapons and commanders. Using the Urban Poor worked fantastically for Rome until... They gave too much power to the Patricians (like we are about to!) by letting them dominate the command structure and loyalty of the various Legions. We'd be committing to a 'solution' that caused the end of the Roman Empire.
The Urban Poor get us a loyal military. We are, ultimately, an urban civilization. For the time period, we have an insane level of urbanization. We need to capitalize on that.
[X] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
[X] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[X] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
Myranyn for Second Sons Crisis, slot because it's a slot, Freehills because it's probably the best option we have, admin because we're going to need as much control as we can possibly get right now.
There are so many options I'd rather take right now, but frankly we just can't afford them.
Look, people are just excited because this is the first chance we've had to address the ingrained sexism of our People in like, a thousand years. It's understandable to be eager and want to see where it goes.
Look, man, I totally support gender equality whenever and however we could. However, I failed to see how giving Patrician daughters a martial education will rein in the lesser warriors.
Look, man, I totally support gender equality whenever and however we could. However, I failed to see how giving Patrician daughters a martial education will rein in the lesser warriors.
The additional Patricians would actually likely help the Second Sons.
After all, the Yeoman are conquering in order to acquire more land. If they succeed in that endevour, well, they're going to need someone to administer that land. Putting them together is not going to solve the problem; the Patricians want to go a-conquering just as much and for the exact same reasons.
Look, man, I totally support gender equality whenever and however we could. However, I failed to see how giving Patrician daughters a martial education will rein in the lesser warriors.
That's why I'm voting for both! We can both set example by encouraging educated women to enter a field where they are not at a major disadvantage and reform our military to deal with the Second Sons crisis. And if the costs turn out to be too high, well, the last big challenge we had the price of failure was opportunity cost. If this does lead to a Challenge-type event I want to at least see the requirements. With the end of the regional liquidity crisis and the Gilded Age our stability costs should be low enough that we can afford a measly one stability before we reach the midturn.
I honestly just want to win the crisis by going all green on its requirements and see what happens. I am suspicious of both those solutions and feel they might be the military equivalent of hereditary land ownership as answer to tax woes back in tax crisis 1.
Something that has apparently gone under in the whole crisis:
Our max Wealth is reduced. We take stability hits when Wealth is low thanks to Guild Mercantile.
So keep that in mind when spending Wealth.
Also, while I think the women in the military reform won't help us with the Second Sons, there is something that it will probably create. A dedicated Officer corps whose rank isn't based on fighting prowess, but tactical and strategic acumen. At least more so than now.
The Patricians will once again do their best to stack the deck in their favor. As the women have an inherent disadvantage in upper body strength (with few exceptions) they need to outperform elsewhere. And being good at the actual job of being a general is something where Patricians can shine. They can afford to have their daughters study every war the Ymaryn ever fought and learn what worked and didn't. Yeomen are very limited as they don't have the ready access to libraries and the like.
This is actually a huge advantage in war fighting. The mongols are a great example of this. They had dedicated guards for their officers so they could concentrate on giving orders rather than killing people. Unlike others (like Europe at the time) they also took old Khans along on campaign. Even if they couldn't even ride anymore, their strategic insight was highly valued and respected. If this reform pushes something similar, we get some serious advantages in combat.
But as said, being bad fighters isn't our problem. It's the whole issue of land 'ownership' and the Yeomen class as a whole.
That's why I'm voting for both! We can both set example by encouraging educated women to enter a field where they are not at a major disadvantage and reform our military to deal with the Second Sons crisis. And if the costs turn out to be too high, well, the last big challenge we had the price of failure was opportunity cost. If this does lead to a Challenge-type event I want to at least see the requirements. With the end of the regional liquidity crisis and the Gilded Age our stability costs should be low enough that we can afford a measly one stability before we reach the midturn.
I honestly just want to win the crisis by going all green on its requirements and see what happens. I am suspicious of both those solutions and feel they might be the military equivalent of hereditary land ownership as answer to tax woes back in tax crisis 1.
Keeping control of an Urban Poor army is frightfully simple really: Keep them paid. They live off paycheck to paycheck. The Urban Poor too seek social advancement, but all they need for social advancement is money, contacts and training! Which they get from us....and unlike the Yeomen, they promote into Artisan caste once they earn enough to open a bakery or an inn, rather than the Yeomen Patrician option.
There is only so much room at the top, but the bottom has plenty of space in the middle.
Okay I am now well rested and... honestly a bit baffled at the threads current choices.
Why is Harmysyn reforms winning? This does not really seem like a solution to our current crisis. I mean it's nice, but not what we need right now. If you are really desperate for those reforms at least choose both, then we can fix the crisis and have better gender equality. Though I would really rather us just use Myranyn's idea instead. We can get the other when we are not at risk of imploding.
Another thing, why are we taking a subordinate reform over a financial innovation? Don't we want to spend wealth so we stop hemorrhaging stability?
As has been pointed out to me, though, this isn't a crisis so it being a mystery requirement is unlikely. At most there will be plans we decide to follow. And while the stab hit will be a little annoying, we can certainly take it since we haven't even gotten to the proper midturn yet and PIA from our breakaways won't trigger again this turn.
If we took the Wealth spending options for the Gilded Age, we would hit low Wealth for sure.
With a lower max, our ability to hoard for a rainy day is reduced. Not critically so, and we overflow more easily, but it is something to keep in mind.
Overall it's a net benefit, but the drawback is real.
Keeping control of an Urban Poor army is frightfully simple really: Keep them paid. They live off paycheck to paycheck. The Urban Poor too seek social advancement, but all they need for social advancement is money, contacts and training! Which they get from us....and unlike the Yeomen, they promote into Artisan caste once they earn enough to open a bakery or an inn, rather than the Yeomen Patrician option.
There is only so much room at the top, but the bottom has plenty of space in the middle.
Yeah, but....what does the full green solution give us? Like, as of now we green on Legitimacy and Military(ish), with Centralization and Yeoman power to go.
I think(hope) that with Max Centralization we will have access to solution with armies dependent directly on the king instead of on whoever gives them money and food (because our nobility are clerks and all).
Not sure that Yeoman Power 0 is a component we want though. But I want to see the Max Cent+Min Martial solution becayse it feels closer to state-dependent conscript army than one withou Max Cent. Plus Mallaa-whatever is clear Marius expy, and his reforms are infamous for divorcing army from state dependency, sso.
I mean, it is a speculation, but eh.
