So you're going to go on a tangent based on a perceived misunderstanding on my part rather than actually contesting the point that arming the poor will not actually alter our ability to maintain a monopoly of force more than, say, expanding our mercenary companies with additional trained commanders? The fact is that unless we actually suppress the yeomen our ability to muster forces against them matters little.
Mercenary armies are vastly more expensive to operate. We just saw the Trelli implode because of that. You can never afford even a fifth as many mercenaries as you could afford conscripts. 10 Martial of the Red Banner is a thousand elite warriors. 10 Martial of conscripts are closer to five thousand conscripts.
Mercenaries are elite forces. They charge appropriately, but make poor line infantry as a result, where depth of line AND width of deployment is critical. This is why Mercenaries are not useful for replacing Yeomen but Citizen armies are.
So we are going to have standing armies once urban poor are converted to crossbowmen? You know this will likely double the economy and wealth cost, as they are entirely dependent on the paymaster without any sort of asset to live off of.
Which is all fine and good if we have the Econ/Wealth to pay them and in the long run it's probably a good idea but.... *looks at current Econ* Can we afford this right now?
The Harmysyn Event Chain would make the thread happier because it reinforces our OOC values, but it doesn't do anything to solve the Second Son crisis we have at hand.
The Second Son crisis will eventually be solved. This will be only chance we'll get for a very long time to get some additional gender equality. This has enough long term benefits that it'll be worth it.
That doesn't change the fact it appeared people were blindly copying Veekie's vote. Which you were saying was because people weren't arguing for their choice. I chose to point out the difficulty of doing so. A person needs to come up with five points at least, have a large and wordy post. Then wait for a critic to notice the person, and maybe the person prevents people from following the leaders of the vote charge
Worth keeping in mind that military ideas which don't work get changed out FAST.
The urban poor armies displaced landowner armies extremely quickly.
Why? The same reason the landowner armies were much more common than a full time warrior army past the tribal stage.
Numbers.
The Urban Poor can be recruited in great numbers very cheaply, requiring only several months of training, compared to the landowners, who needed to be trained from childhood to use a bow. Furthermore, the Urban Poor are trained in the modern way, one trainer directing dozens of individuals at once, which meant in turn that drill and discipline become more significant parts of training.
As a bonus, we're getting nearer to pikes! After this transition we'd be able to pack Crossbowmen behind Pike Hedges.
It's sort of like archers bringing their own forest.
NO. Going to war to stop a fire is a terrible idea. War has always been bad for us and going to war while we're in crisis mode is extremely bad. Furthermore, WE COULD LOSE. Or at least simply not succeed on the first turn, in which case we get plunged into civil war. Theoretically it should be doable, but we've been wrong about things before. This is absolutely not something we should gamble on. We'll suppress the bastards and take the Stab/Econ loss on the chin.
We'd be crazy to do that while our armies are running out of control...
...we ARE crazy though...
...but I'm inclined to suppress because, supporting the Traders here is dumb in the current public mood. If the war is anything but a singular, decisive victory the people will riot.
So we are going to have standing armies once urban poor are converted to crossbowmen? You know this will likely double the economy and wealth cost, as they are entirely dependent on the paymaster without any sort of asset to live off of.
Looking at the contemporary armies of the time, the army should change from:
-60% Yeomen Archers
-30% Full time line infantry as shieldwalls
-10% Special unit elites
To:
-60% Conscript Crossbowmen
-30% Full time line infantry as shieldwalls
-10% Special unit elites
I expect the Economy and Wealth cost to increase by 1.5x, but on the other hand the Yeomen being phased out would see them taking up other trades to occupy their time.
I'm not actually sure that there are more urban poor than yeomen even, if only one in 10 farmers is a yeomen that would still be roughly comparable to the number of people living in cities in total and certainly not all of those can be considered poor.
Depends on the era to be honest. We're taking Steel Blooded, so that means one person can do even MORE work, which would create another surge of population towards the cities...once we bath away the plague.
@Academia Nut The Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth), would it be possible for it to max our centralization?
Would a centralization rise be roll dependent, or is there a minimum number we can expect from choosing Administration Innovation?
I'm not blindly arguing against veekie, I'm making an observation that voting solely because of name recognition is foolish. Veekie is just the most prominent and recent example.
Mercenary armies are vastly more expensive to operate. We just saw the Trelli implode because of that. You can never afford even a fifth as many mercenaries as you could afford conscripts. 10 Martial of the Red Banner is a thousand elite warriors. 10 Martial of conscripts are closer to five thousand conscripts.
Mercenaries are elite forces. They charge appropriately, but make poor line infantry as a result, where depth of line AND width of deployment is critical. This is why Mercenaries are not useful for replacing Yeomen but Citizen armies are.
Thank you for actually addressing my argument. All right, I'm convinced that conscript armies have a use for replacing yeomen. The question now is if we actually want to do that right now, with the increasingly worrying straits our econ and wealth are in, instead of working to meet the crisis conditions another way. We're already going to be bleeding econ towards our western breakaway due to stability hits, after all...
Maybe it isn't difficult, but how will the challenger know for certain they are the reason a choice was made? The ignorance is a very real problem. Maybe the challenger is the reason the vote is changed, maybe not. The never knowing is a problem that debaters must fight. The never knowing is a reason why I don't invest too much into this thread anymore. Then there are pros like Veekie whom people will follow blindly because they have good ideas.
Maybe I am lashing out at others for being convincing, but did you try and change the tide that was flowing? If it is so easy then all you need is one sentence to push the current vote into anything you want, no?
How many sentences would be needed by a nobody to convince a farmgirl they are a king?
How many sentences does a fanboy of Harry Potter need to convince a fangirl of Harry Potter that Harry Potter is a good series of books to read?
Which is all fine and good if we have the Econ/Wealth to pay them and in the long run it's probably a good idea but.... *looks at current Econ* Can we afford this right now?
I'm saying no mainly due to giving urban poor weapons is a disastrous act since it will link up Patricians (Commanders/Paymaster), Priests (Legitimate cover / own separate force thanks to independent faith owned estates), and Urban poor (Muscle and lack of all hesitation due to no worse possible positions).
Looking at the contemporary armies of the time, the army should change from:
-60% Yeomen Archers
-30% Full time line infantry as shieldwalls
-10% Special unit elites
To:
-60% Conscript Crossbowmen
-30% Full time line infantry as shieldwalls
-10% Special unit elites
I expect the Economy and Wealth cost to increase by 1.5x, but on the other hand the Yeomen being phased out would see them taking up other trades to occupy their time.
I'm not entirely sure that you quote is supported or not, but assuming this is correct; do you expect the current simple economy to absorb 60% of Yeomen's spare craft or fun searching?
And you know that early armies regularly hand out land to their soldiers as payment? (I'm looking at Imperial ear China, Pre-Meiji Japan, and Roma). So really the Urban Poor army will become Yeoman army once Urban Poor Soldiers proves them self.
Your mention of Citizen Army is referring to Rome's early legions? The ones that had land but was out competed by slave plantations and ended up as city squalors?
I'm not blindly arguing against veekie, I'm making an observation that voting solely because of name recognition is foolish. Veekie is just the most prominent and recent example
Thank you for actually addressing my argument. All right, I'm convinced that conscript armies have a use for replacing yeomen. The question now is if we actually want to do that right now, with the increasingly worrying straits our econ and wealth are in. We're already going to be bleeding econ towards our western breakaway due to stability hits, after all...
This historically worked on the Second Sons problem. So since the Second Sons problem is the worst part of the whole situation...worth a shot to reform our way out of randomly stabbing people?
]
I'm not entirely sure that you quote is supported or not, but assuming this is correct; do you expect the current simple economy to absorb 60% of Yeomen's spare craft or fun searching?
Historically the idle agricultural manpower turned to cottage industries instead, where without war to occupy them they turned to producing simple goods in the off seasons. Which meant weaving, leather making, barrelmaking etc, moved into the rural landscape as the cities focused on more difficult or infrastructure intensive crafts, while the countryside imported looms and tools.
And you know that early armies regularly hand out land to their soldiers as payment? (I'm looking at Imperial ear China, Pre-Meiji Japan, and Roma). So really the Urban Poor army will become Yeoman army once Urban Poor Soldiers proves them self.
It doesn't.
Because we don't hand out land. Period
The poor are paid in food and coin for military service
Your mention of Citizen Army is referring to Rome's early legions? The ones that had land but was out competed by slave plantations and ended up as city squalors?
No, the renaissance/medieval concept rather than the classical one. Urbanites in various non-essential trades(which trades were immune to conscription varied a lot of course, though smiths were usually exempt for obvious reasons) were required to train with crossbows and maintain a certain minimum level of fitness so that they can be called to war in times of need, though they maintained their trades otherwise.
This model sometimes included additional taxes for those who would avoid the draft. In effect, they're paying their taxes as labor via military service, in exchange for food.
Rome's early legions is the current Yeoman model you realize?
Landowners armed themselves and waged war in their off seasons.
It doesn't.
Because we don't hand out land. Period
The poor are paid in food and coin for military service
No, the renaissance/medieval concept rather than the classical one. Urbanites in various non-essential trades(which trades were immune to conscription varied a lot of course, though smiths were usually exempt for obvious reasons) were required to train with crossbows and maintain a certain minimum level of fitness so that they can be called to war in times of need, though they maintained their trades otherwise.
This model sometimes included additional taxes for those who would avoid the draft. In effect, they're paying their taxes as labor via military service, in exchange for food.
Rome's early legions is the current Yeoman model you realize?
Landowners armed themselves and waged war in their off seasons.
That's what i mean, you can't use ideas that are 1000 years in the future to argue what we are currently plan to do will function like it without associated costs. Citing renaissance or medieval where hereditary and merchant power rein when arguing the new Citizen army will work as imagined without anything current or past to base off of is insane! There is leap forward and there is leap off a cliff.
Attacking people by implicitedly accusing them of blindly voting for someone who caused famine, is a blind, personal attack against the person who proposed that vote.
I mean, as far as I can see you did indeed try to convince someone to change their vote, and your only argument for why was the person who proposed it. That makes it an attempt to change someone's vote based on the person who proposed it.
Renegade Kingdoms -> Western Ymaryn AN: Yes, the Western Ymaryn have PiA, and yes, they drained Econ from you (after you had already recovered due to timing, or you would have imploded). Also, the Western Ymaryn and any of their successor states count as successor states of the People and thus you assume direct control in the event of a Social Break
And then news arrived. The Trelli had straight up run out of money. In their efforts to deal with the issue they had somehow completely emptied their treasuries and ended up with nothing to pay their numerous mercenary companies or the ships crews for hunting pirates, and now the strait, their colonies, and all their close trading partners had exploded into flames as anarchy took over.
Oh hey cool, backups. Backups of knowledge are awesome. If they start doing things on their own We will need to keep an eye out but *scratches chin* ... mMm yeah. Keep an eye on them. I'm mighty curious to see what they do.
Guild (4) - Objective: Generate 2 Econ from War or Refugees within 2 turns. Success: Free textiles technology, Failure: Random trade power downgraded Traders (3*) - Objective: Conquer Trelli within 1 turn. Failure: Civil War (Suppressible)
You wot mate? You want what? Ahhahahahaah. Fuck. And. No.
Right, I want to knock both of these to 3 at least. 2 would be even nicer.
Though... shit... I think we have 1 stab from Gilded Age and probably one stab from sons, but suppressing takes 1 as well. Cock, this is going to be a there are three choices but can only pick two. Well lets hope the GA dies out fast!
The Second Sons Crisis is pushing the People to the breaking point militarily. Reform the system?
[] [Reform] Begin Myranyn Reforms Event Chain
[] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[] [Reform] Begin Both (-1 Stability, Both Events Started, ???)
[] [Reform] Ignore Both
Uhhh... "Myranyn"...? Sounds like Marian as in Marian Reforms, which eventually shafted Rome. Kinda makes me not want it on principle.
Both is basically suicidal at current status so thats a no.
Rule of Gold has been kicked out, who to draw from now?
[] [PiA] Western Ymaryn (Possibly Pioneering Spirit)
[] [PiA] Harmurri (Something trade related maybe [Not Center of Trade related])
[] [PiA] Mountain Horse (Probably an Honour Code)
[] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[] [PiA] Freehills (Social Value)
[] [PiA] Storm Tribes (Probably an Honour Code)
[] [PiA] Nomads (Honour Code)
Gilded Age Bonus
[] [GA] Administrative innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Financial innovation (-8 Wealth)
[] [GA] Begin Great Dam megaproject in independent action track (-10 Wealth)
[] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[] [GA] New materials tech (-10 Tech)
OHHHH MY you guyz have Pioneer? EEEEEEEEEEEEEE. Hmmmmm probably not that useful sadly, and would exacerbate Second Son. We should make friends with these Westerners though, so we can stand against the Steppe with it starting to change over to Light Cav scores now.
Admin and subordinate reform will all help with Second Son. Sub reform most of all. I think even with the slot loss from -10 Prestige (which must be from Pure Gold legacy I think) we will not go over the limit. But financial innovation sounds like a way to solve the Liquidity crisis before it comes back, which it will soon. Hmmmm.
[] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
Might get ugly, but it... it has less chance to be back breaking like other ones, I think. Myranyn is actually the same way, but it has a possibility to suck massive ass with Second Son going, or if we are perceived to fuck over the Urban Poor too hard for example by failing their quests. Honestly if we were in best condition of 3 Stab I'd go for both since they sync really well. Oooo though.
Myranyn is essentially a hefty chunk of the solution wrapped up in a nice little box. The way to contain them is a fucking dumb one though. They'd be hungry, and armed. Sounds like the future set up to a wonderful little Viva Le Revolucion. I'll pass on that.
[] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
I personally don't really have an opinion on the value, the top three all seem like okay ideas. I'll just go with the majority.
That compatibility warning is kinda distressing though. Hope it doesn't bite us in the ass. (NO MURPHY GO FUCKING DIE IN A HOLE, YOU CAN'T USE THESE WORDS AS A PATH TO COME KICK OUR ASS. It says so right here in Column 5-D Line 2 of the Contract!)
[] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
Since I ain't picking a thing to really solve second son in the Reform option, I think I'll go with subordinate reform.
[] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
Yoink. Need this.
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
That's what i mean, you can't use ideas that are 1000 years in the future to argue what we are currently plan to do will function like it without associated costs. Citing renaissance or medieval where hereditary and merchant power rein when arguing the new Citizen army will work as imagined without anything current or past to base off of is insane! There is leap forward and there is leap off a cliff.
Which is why the Second Son crisis itself was never resolved until this particular transition. We've been talking about it for many turns now. The only effective permanent cure to the Second Son crisis IS the formation of a professional army.
Yes, it creates new, different issues.
But said issues aren't happening now.
Leaping off the cliff is rejecting a known and proven solution to our current problems in the hopes that we can magic up a solution without:
-Crippling our civilization with overcentralization.
-Destroying our military traditions and economy in an attempt to drive Martial below 3 while staying above 0.
-The player-unpopular option of destroying the political power of the Yeomen.
The simple fact is that if you want to stop your yeomen from attacking neighboring countries and winning, you need to remove your military base from them.
As going without an army is suicidal, especially with the post-Trelli pirate infestation, you need a replacement for line armies.
As going with a pure mercenary force requires enough coins in circulation to recreate the currency crisis you cannot rely on a standing army of well paid elites as your military's main body.
We are left with using the poor, for whom we already have control mechanisms in place for, as the main body of our army. While the Grain Dole lasts, they won't become a new problem, allowing us to focus on all the OTHER problems.
The thing is that the development of steel occurred sometime in the classic era and while it certainly increased the potential productive power of a single person a ration of 1 non farmer to 10 farmers would persist through out the world well into the Renaissance. The other issue is that while Yeomen going of and doing their own thing is certainly a problem arming the poor and paying them to fight will also cause significant problems. You just need to look at the roman republic/empire to see an example of this going both very wrong and very right. On one hand you now have a significant and fairly replaceable number of potential pretty good troops who are dependent on the one paying them. However because these people have very little personal stake in the country as a whole (as opposed to land owners) and are dependent on that pay (also as apposed to land owners) you have a situation where you basically have a bunch of people who will be loyal to who ever is currently responsible for them getting paid or getting plunder. This usually works out as being their general or the patrician backing him. Look at the chaos of the roman civil wars for an indication of where that can lead.
Though... shit... I think we have 1 stab from Gilded Age and probably one stab from sons, but suppressing takes 1 as well. Cock, this is going to be a there are three choices but can only pick two. Well lets hope the GA dies out fast!
Remember Gilded age was brought on by max wealth and not having other criteria for a golden age, so spend wealth or ensure we reach golden age criteria.
[X] [Reform] Begin Harmysyn Reforms Event Chain
[X] [PiA] Khemetri (Probably a Spiritual Value, hard to tell compatibility with new religion)
[X] [GA] Subordinate reform (-10 Prestige)
[X] [Iron] Upgrade Iron Blooded to Steel Blooded
Remember Gilded age was brought on by max wealth and not having other criteria for a golden age, so spend wealth or ensure we reach golden age criteria.
And we won't be reaching normal GA any time soon. Makes that financial innovation kinda nice, though I think we will actually drop out of it if we end the midturn with less than max wealth. We probably want to spend Culture in some way though I can't recall what even spends it right now.
