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Paths of Civilization

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On Areté.

Lots of people saying that Areté is striving for excellence, and that's true to an extend. But Areté is more than that and context is important.

The early Areté traces itself from the word Aristos, the Greek word for "The best" which is also the root for the word aristocrats (They who are the best) and aristocracy (Rule by the best), one could have an Areté boat for example. Over time there was a shift in meaning, where before the aristocrats were aristocrats because they were the best, later on you were "the best" because you were an aristocrat.

The definite meaning of Areté is vague. There are different kinds of Areté and different classes so to speak. The Greek heroes of the Iliad possess Areté. Homer describes Achilles as an examplar of Areté not only due to his strenght and courage. Death in battle or winning the Olympics was considered good (agathos) and worthy of honor (timé). Achilles, who is destined to die in the fields of Troy, isn't only guaranteed Aréte because of his excellence, but also because he is guaranteed a death of the highest honor.

Contrast to that Penelope, wife of Odysseus, is also called Areté but because of her skill in cooperation with others.

To be Areté isn't just to be excellent, it's also to be virtuous/good (another example of this is that the Greek goddess Areté is the goddess of virtue). To hold oneself to the highest standards of one's culture and values. Which is the reason why it's so hard to define.

Plato nevertheless tried and came up with the following central values (Plato didn't argue that these were the sole values of Areté and its connection with Dikaiosynē and Sōphrosynē was already around at the time):
  • Sōphrosynē
  • Phronēsis
  • Andreia
  • Dikaiosynē
Better known as:
  • Temperance - Moderation (in action, though and feelings) - Self Restraint
  • Prudence - Caution - Wisdom - Rational Choice
  • Courage - Bravery - Fortitude - Perseverance - Patience
  • Justice - Moderation (between selfishness and selflessness) - Charitability
These are the Cardinal Virtues, seem familiar? That's because together with the Theological Virtues; Faith, Hope and Love (As stated by the apostle Paul) they form the Seven Christian Virtues.

Plato argues that in a "Good" city all classes and animals, but particularly the workers (farmers and craftsmen) adhere to Temperance, the warriors adhere to Courage and the rulers to Prudence, with Justice standing outside the class system and governing the relations between the classes.
 
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DocMatoi said:
Sure they would, with private landholding, they'd inherit highly profitable land and/or other wealth from their family and just live off that.
I'm not talking out of my ass here - this is what happens irl.
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Ah yes and imbeciles who inherited where magicaly protected and totally didn't collapse thier family fortune and get condemned to obscurity.

Inheritance provides an advantage, and only that. It wasn't some magical force that kept retards rich. In fact retards had a tendency to either lose the inheritance quickly, or not inherit in the first place as they get outmanoeuvred of thier inheritance.

Nobles getting a stipend to live of from thier families was common yes. But that is no different from any family giving a member cash when he's in need, or parents giving allowances. And said stipended nobles didn't last long if they couldn't find a more reliable source of income.
 
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Omegahugger said:
First of all, we've only attacked the Nomads when they attacked us first. We were never the ones to deal the first blow. But sure, let's take a look at our notable enemies, see what they're really made of.

First we have the nomads. You say they are weaker than us, but there's one thing we can say about them: They might be uncultured barbarians, but they sure know how to fight. Heck, one of the arguments for making with the Khemri was that a Hero Duo from up north would cause us no end of trouble, and we pretty much had to make the Stallion March to hold them off.

Then we have the Xohyr. Our ancestral enemies, monsters who captured and sacrificed so many civilians they were able to build a wall with their skulls. A foe so terrible we needed to borrow the strength of the aforementioned Nomads before we even wanted to fight them. Not only that, they had the world's first True City. We might not want to admit it, but Xohyr was probably the birth of Culture in our region. They were without a doubt our peers.

They might be a bit of a footnote, but I want to bring up the Spirit Talkers as well. We didn't fight much against them directly and neither of us were particularly martially inclined, but they had a profound effect on our military. It was them who taught us the power of mysticism and elitism in warfare, and each of their Berserkers could take on an entire unit of regular troops on their own. You can draw a direct line between the International Games we are building today and the legacy of the Spirit Talkers.

There's also the Thunder Horses/Speakers. Again, not the most frightening foes we've faced, but they are descended from Wendiktos himself. A guy so badass the Ymaryn themselves gave him their blessings and who wielded a fallen star in battle. He led an army so mighty that when they eventually lost, the Ymaryn as a people learned that even the mightiest of heroes can fall.

And finally, we have Khemri. Oh by Gwy, we have the Khemri. Now this was a worthy opponent. A young girl blessed with an unthinkable talent for violence; a God given flesh descending on the battlefield to match her; Armies so large and battles so bloody the battlefield had enough cadavers to fill an enitre city! It was a glorious battle, so terrible and awe-inspiring we immediately began working on ways to fight them again without killing them!

Compared to that, what does the Hill Kingdom have? What exactly makes them worth the effort to take out? They are cowards who are fundamentally unable to face their foes head on, who only attack them once their back are turned.
An insect like that isn't worth the underside of our boots.
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Okay so first off, Nomads. Nomads haven't been a threat to us in bloody centuries, until recently we have been able to actively slaughter their tribes with just our Marches, occasionally they would get dangerous, but for a long while we held a massive advantage that we made full use of. At one point we even made a bloody dead zone!
Also you're going on about defensive wars? What happened to your claim of being a blood knight? Or was that just you trying to cover up your pacifism? Either way, make up your mind on that please, it makes it easier to debate when the person your debating knows what they want.

Next the Xoh. Here I cry bullshit. You do remember that we took them out in a single turn. They were constantly defeated brutally by the Red Banner even before we went into open war with them. When we did chose to fight them we were so out of their league it wasn't funny. We had Iron, the Red Banner, a Heroic Martial Leader and they were facing several rebellions. That was just a mercy kill at that point and your crap about 'culture' and how 'they were strong once' doesn't cover the fact that they were way below us when we attacked them. It wasn't even a proper fight.

Then you go on and on about other heroes and nations who are so far below us that now we can stomp on them all at the same time and have done twice now. Aside from the Khemetri we have no peers, we once did, but we never really fought them overly much. We've slapped down weaker Nomads brutally, slaughtering all their men even to this day, and for generations we continued basically kicking them in the face easily, the Xoh were nowhere near our peers when we broke them, they once were but not when we chose to fight them.

To conclude you are chatting rubbish here, no offence, but you are trying to act like a blood knight. Pay attention to the word 'act'. And if it's not an act your kind of insane. You don't want to fight now, in a war that would cost us several thousand men, and instead you want to fight them when they are our peers. A fight that would cost tens of thousands of lives....

If you're being serious you actually concern me.

Also an insect is worth the boot, if you let a cockroach go uncrushed they can get in your pantry and spread disease to your food, if you let an ant go without the boot they can end up a queen and breed a hive in your home. If you don't give the insect the boot before it does further damage you can come to regret it. They've already cost us huge amounts of wealth and tens of thousands of lives, if they hadn't attacked it's likely the TH wouldn't have attacked and we would have been in a far far far better position to fight the Khemetri.

You keep trying to ignore the fact they've cost us masses of lives and wealth, you keep trying to ignore the fact they will keep doing what they're doing, you keep being a blood knight psycho who wants to get as many people killed as possible.

I'm going to avenge our people, strengthen our borders of a major weakness and ensure that their betrayal never leads to the death of tens of thousands again.
 
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Dutch said:
On Areté.

Lots of people saying that Areté is striving for excellence, and that's true to an extend. But Areté is more than that and context is important.

The early Areté traces itself from the word Aristos, the Greek word for "The best" which is also the root for the word aristocrats (They who are the best) and aristocracy (Rule by the Best), one could have an Areté boat for example. Over time there was a shift in meaning, where before the aristocrats were aristocrats because they were the best, later on you were "the best" because you were an aristocrat.

The definite meaning of Areté is vague. There are different kinds of Areté and different classes so to speak. The Greek heroes of the Iliad possess Areté. Homer describes Achilles as an examplar of Areté not only due to his strenght and courage. Death in battle or winning the Olympics was considered good (agathos) and worthy of honor (timé). Achilles, who is destined to die in the fields of Troy, isn't only guaranteed Aréte because of his excellence, but also because he is guaranteed a death of the highest honor.

Contrast to that Penelope, wife of Odysseus, is also called Areté but because of her skill in cooperation with others.

To be Areté isn't just to be excellent, it's also to be virtuous (another example of this is that the Greek goddess Areté is the goddess of virtue). To hold oneself to the highest standards of one's culture and values. Which is the reason why it's so hard to define.

Plato nevertheless tried and came up with the following central values (Plato didn't argue that these were the sole values of Areté and its connection with Dikaiosynē and Sōphrosynē was already around.):
  • Sōphrosynē
  • Phronēsis
  • Andreia
  • Dikaiosynē
Better known as:
  • Temperance - Moderation (in action, though and feelings) - Self Restraint
  • Prudence - Caution - Wisdom - Rational Choice
  • Courage - Bravery - Fortitude - Perseverance - Patience
  • Justice - Moderation (between selfishness and selflessness) - Charitability
These are the Cardinal Virtues, seem familiar? That's because together with the Theological Virtues; Faith, Hope and Love (As stated by the apostle Paul) they form the seven virtues.

Plato also argues that in a "Good" city all classes and animals, but particularly the workers (farmers and craftsmen) adhere to Temperance, the warriors adhere to Courage and the rulers to Prudence, with Justice standing outside the class system and governing the relations between the classes.
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Hurrah! Dutch saves the day!
 
Chronic said:
I don't see why People are planting poppies. Grand Docks are almost strictly better. If it works as expected we get the same +1 stab and an amazing megaproject, and if it doesn't we get valuable intelligence on how Symphony, our most mysterious trait, works.
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We don't just "get" an amazing megaproject - at best, it means that we shift 2 mains worth of actions from other stuff to a megaproject, partially completing it. So we are basically giving up a bunch of stats and innovation rolls to get a couple of actions ahead on the docks.

As for info on symphony... I'm not sure what kind of info you expect to gain. If we get no Symphony bonuses, what will you conclude? What about 1 symphony bonus? 2?
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
A point in favor of poppies: it leaves us with two free policy actions. Now, I can't say I know how those would be used, but I wouldn't be surprised to see trade delegations sent to our neighbors. Maybe to the Lightning Wolves, wherever they are roaming nowdays? Or the Swamp Folks, who we basically haven't met at all?

Wouldn't it be grand to have them come and participate, too?
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Grand Docks
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] Build Mills
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Hemp
 
Manget said:
If we went with my plan then all we will do is keep raiding them until they come out and die on our defenses and then they will kneel to our King.

All this bloodbath planning is sickening
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Spreading the killing out over many turns doesn't actually reduce the death toll though? We still need to kill enough to exhaust them either way, as far as I can tell.
 
PrimalShadow said:
It is called Megaproject Support; I don't think taking actions which synergize with our Megaproject is out of the question, especially since they also give the stats the project needs.
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I think this falls into one of those weird grey areas. Since I'm not quite sure of the question being debated here(kinda tired), perhaps a question to the AN should be made by you guys?

Both sides seem to make some sense to me.
 
DocMatoi said:
He only won thanks to a vote weighting system that was anti-populist at best - the 51% majority was actually with his main opponent
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Ah yes :turian:the people:turian: Clearly however he got the majority of the :turian:people:turian: who matter.
It also of course doesn't help that the person who ran against him quitted before everything ended isn't it? After all you can't force someone who doesn't want to be president now can you it be wrong. -_-
 
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