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Paths of Civilization

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Inspirit said:
I've also been thinking about the Highland Kingdom. What is the general goal when we go to war? Will we be aiming for outright conquest, or simply kick them enough that we get them as a vassal? Because either one is going to be difficult, conquest especially will be a bloodbath for us both. They will be defending highly defensible terrain with fortifications that they've built up over the centuries. They've occupied the area for a long time, after all.

My goal is to make them our vassal/client kingdom. Preferably without actually fighting. Very slim chance, but I think if we go all in with the attack, instead of half assing it and relying on our martial score, then they might just kneel so they don't get chewed up. So, next turn I'd suggest something like this, which hopefully makes them yield.

[Main] War Mission - Highland Kingdom
[Secondary] Terrify
[Secondary] Change Policy - Offence

I think this should work out at 3-4 war missions aimed at them, so tens of thousands of very pissed of Ymaryn.
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Thanks for answering!

My goals in all of that is that on the outside end I want them as vassals. It would take a lot of back end work afterward, which we might not be able to afford. More realistically in order to stop their issues I like Citino's suggestion to take the west passes and add on my desire to move south of the cataracts to get some strategic depth. Basically a Demand Territory war goal.

Your action spread is about the one I would go for. In that scenario we'd be dropping 3 War actions on them, so 12 rolls when I think they can maybe muster up 8. Plus the Terrify would synergize well with all that War and may well convince them to capitulate with less bloodshed.

E: Funny thing, we could actually keep building the Grand Docks using the Guild action while doing this whole thing.
 
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PrimalShadow said:
More action efficient? How do you recon?

Are you judging that the two secondary actions our provinces will have to produce stats are worth less than a megaproject action or something?
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Mostly, yes. It's just a waste of the megaproject support policy. Those stats are useful, but, like the poppies, could be generated by most any other policy any other time. The docks gains a specific advantage by being done at this moment and in that slot that it cannot gain at any other time.
 
keenscythe said:
Hey guys, I don't know if it has already been brought up, but has anyone considered going with the Trade province policy instead of the Mega-project policy?
Consider that so far we are only likely to have KH show up to our international games, but if we spam trade missions far and wide we could have Nomads, SF, TH, and others show up to our events if they are held once a turn.
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We need to have the International Games up and running while the current God King is still alive.

I want to see how far he can throw a spear.
 
PrimalShadow said:
We get that option in DEFENSIVE wars. We haven't really had any non-defensive wars yet.


But you know what? I'm done arguing about this. Clearly, you aren't going to change your mind, and clearly, Defensive isn't going to win this turn, so I don't really see the point.
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Actuary if you're right then offence is better in defensive wars as well as most defensive wars start after main turn provincial actions have already happened, And then we are scrambling for as many more war missions and Martial Raisers as possible.

And you may in fact be right we don't know we have allways had bad defensive infrastructure. we don't know what it's like to have good defensive infrastructure.
 
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Your idea isn't a bad one, keenscythe, but it doesn't work when we know everyone nearby and they pretty much all hate us. The only reason the Khemetri are showing is because we had a pretty amicable truce and the King is a sensible guy and heroic Diplo.
keenscythe said:
Nomads
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Wouldn't care for the idea anyway. They raid to eat and get women. They aren't even a single grouping. At best we might get a random tribe here and there but that defeats the purpose of diplomacy anyway.
keenscythe said:
SF
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I guess ... who really cares about them, though?
keenscythe said:
TH
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We literally just beat the shit out of them and humiliated them. We could have even made it worse. They won't come.

Beyond this there are like two or three other groups we could go see/find.
  • Eastern Sea People
  • Northern Peoples
 
pbluekan said:
Mostly, yes. It's just a waste of the megaproject support policy. Those stats are useful, but, like the poppies, could be generated by most any other policy any other time. The docks gains a specific advantage by being done at this moment and in that slot that it cannot gain at any other time.
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Not really? So long as we have at least one main Megaproject action to be doubled by The Law, we aren't losing action efficiency.

Getting Megaprojects done is very likely worthwhile especially since we won't be getting wealth drip from the Poppies trade good, but it isn't wasting actions to do poppies. Wasting whatever benefit the docks might give us, true, but we don't know what that is.
 
Also, I am looking forward to seeing how the different cultures match up in the Speedfarming Discipline.

I am quite confident in the Ymaryn's superiority here, but I have been surprised by our neighbours more than once.
 
pbluekan said:
Yeah, well said guy was also assuming we would divert a whole river's worth of flow through the canal when we barely need a millionth of one of them to irrigate the whole area in the equivalent of 70 inches of rain per year. I don't disagree that we need more time for it, but the problems were seriously exaggerated.
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Alright, does AN know that is he still rolling with the false data?
 
pbluekan said:
Yeah, well said guy was also assuming we would divert a whole river's worth of flow through the canal when we barely need a millionth of one of them to irrigate the whole area in the equivalent of 70 inches of rain per year. I don't disagree that we need more time for it, but the problems were seriously exaggerated.
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You know, the Dam might help with that. Which means AN has, after a millennium and a half, finally given us a reason to take the damn dam.
 
Somebodynobody10 said:
Alright, does AN know that is he still rolling with the false data?
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Yes.
pbluekan said:
Good flow, but nowhere near the same flow as the rivers themselves. Likely a great deal less, actually.

So, its roughly 28000 gallons is roughly an inch of "rain" for an acre of land. So, the Great Plains of North America get roughly 50 inches per year, which is insufficient to support trees. Lets say that you need another 15 inches per yr to support trees. That is roughly 1820000 gallons per year or 4986 gallons per day per acre. Lets say that the flow rate of one of those rivers is equal to the Dnieper River which flows at 58980 cubic feet per second. That is 1.58832*10^9 gallons per hour or 3.811968*10^10 gallons per day. That will cover 7645342.96 acres of forest or farmland in a single day. There is no way we need even a thousandth of that flow.
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He *informatived* that post.
 
I honestly think the estimation of how bloody the HK war will be is being overstated. Sieges are bloody for two reasons; disease, and storms. I highly doubt any fortress has stocks to survive 20 years of sieges, I highly doubt they have the field forces to contest our armies, and the Ymaryn are ridiculously well suited to mitigate siege camp diseases.

All the fortifications are really going to do for the HI is big meaningless amounts of time and ensure they surrender or die a dog's death.
 
So... I feel like I should point out something here on the 'multiple megaproject,' plan, that may or may not have been noticed yet.

Symphony is a thing, and it has been known to add extra actions in addition to costs to megaprojects. I think it hasn't some times too though, but that was only when megaprojects were completing...

I mean, it will give me data points to get a more accurate idea of how symphony works, but it also has the distinct possibility (I'd even argue likelyhood unless someone has figured out how symphony works), to cost enough econ to not get us over 10 wealth. Please be warned.



Also, as to the theoretical legacy, we actually can take a pretty good guess as to what it is and how it is gotten now.

Notice that things count in twos on the odd numbers. We just got The King Still Stands (III), and there was apparently a The King Still Stands (I). We also know there is a One of Each (V), and One of Each (III), both of which we have.

I suspect the next upgrade in that trait line is Rush Builders (III), where we build three megaprojects in one turn. So I don't think we'll get a legacy from that.


Will point out some fun reactions when I am more awake, but I do enjoy the idea of neutering the nomads by getting them hooked on opium that someone came up with.

Oh, also, if AN simply forgot to make our upper martial red, switch out trails with founding a mercenary company and then use the midturn to main more trails if possible.
 
Karugus said:
I honestly think the estimation of how bloody the HK war will be is being overstated. Sieges are bloody for two reasons; disease, and storms. I highly doubt any fortress has stocks to survive 20 years of sieges, I highly doubt they have the field forces to contest our armies, and the Ymaryn are ridiculously well suited to mitigate siege camp diseases.

All the fortifications are really going to do for the HI is big meaningless amounts of time and ensure they surrender or die a dog's death.
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All our wars are bloody. It's what happens when the only way to defend against attacks is contesting them in the field.
 
pbluekan said:
Look at the other plan. It gets stability and does a double megaproject. It's more action efficient.
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Already seen it, and I think I'd prefer the poppies for now. New trade good, more wealth buffer and I'm not particularly bothered about trying to rush two megaprojects at once. I might change later, but I'm fine with my vote at the moment.

BungieONI said:
Thanks for answering!

My goals in all of that is that on the outside end I want them as vassals. It would take a lot of back end work afterward, which we might not be able to afford. More realistically in order to stop their issues I like Citino's suggestion to take the west passes and add on my desire to move south of the cataracts to get some strategic depth. Basically a Demand Territory war goal.

Your action spread is about the one I would go for. In that scenario we'd be dropping 3 War actions on them, so 12 rolls when I think they can maybe muster up 8. Plus the Terrify would synergize well with all that War and may well convince them to capitulate with less bloodshed.

E: Funny thing, we could actually keep building the Grand Docks using the Guild action while doing this whole thing.
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Demanding territory has some merits, especially in Hatvalley and the cataracts. It might turn out to be one of the options we get on the conclusion of the war. Depends on how we do. The biggest problem with it is that it leaves them independant, and that is not ideal, especially with the Khemetri not far away.

Just thought, but it might be a lot more war missions. I was thinking Gulvalley might have enough to take part, knocking it up to 4, but I completely forgot about PTSD-Chan.

The Guild action is very useful, and I'm very tempted to just stick it on Grand Docks next turn and let it complete on its own.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
 
pbluekan said:
Mostly, yes. It's just a waste of the megaproject support policy. Those stats are useful, but, like the poppies, could be generated by most any other policy any other time. The docks gains a specific advantage by being done at this moment and in that slot that it cannot gain at any other time.
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What advantage? The hypothetical "start two megaprojects simultaneously" legacy?
 
Manget said:
All our wars are bloody. It's what happens when the only way to defend against attacks is contesting them in the field.
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And demonstrating a lack of understanding as usual wins the day.

The HK has nowhere near the numbers, skill, and resources to fight us in the field- if they try they are butchered like animals. If they retreat to their forts like is sensible, than the people can afford to wait them out, and they either starve like animals or surrender.

Asserting that this war inherently has to be bloody or spouting nonsense about field battles is just that. The HK are going to see how little fortifications matter when a totally superior foe has the time to wait you out.

Fortifications have their place, but when the disparity of force is this great, and said enemy can afford to spend literal decades sieging their province- they just buy time, and time really won't save them.
 
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DkArthas said:
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
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If you change Poppies to Grand Docks, we'll still get the +1 Stability from Wealth because of Econ overflow, just so you know.
 
[X] [Mega] Upgrade Best of the Best to Life of Arete
[X] [Main] International Games
[X] [Secondary] New Trails
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X] [Guild] Plant Poppies
 
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