Btw, to bring up something that hasn't happened yet, what should we use Redshore's policy on? And the ST's TC?
I think I'd like to start putting further policies in Innovation and Vassal Support.

We're getting a dedicated mercantile action, we've got 3+ infrastructure going up each turn, we have more trouble getting rid of our military than building it up.
Note that the Retraining action lets us use a secondary to get 3 stats and burn 3 martial in the process. Given that getting 2-3 stats from an action is what we'd reasonably expect barring additional effects, this means that if burning martial is a good thing we get it more-or-less for free.
 
in passive policy i want to end up with 2/3 infra + law bonus, 2 defenses, 1 forestry. in the near future.
 
This shifts the costs onto whatever action we took that gained us the martial.

No, it is not free.
It means that getting martial is worthless, yes - but that doesn't make the martial itself of negative value.

Before, when we didn't have any way of venting martial, more martial was ACTIVELY detrimental, to the point where people were considering founding mercenary companies and killing them as a way of venting. That is what it means for getting rid of martial to be "not free".
 
The Battle of Bloodvalley took place between the Khemeti Empire under the command of Reshemhetari the Great and the Ymaryn Kingdom under General Yenya in Gullvalley on Gull River just south of Hatriver.

The battle is generally dated to 201 AD, and is considered the climactic battle of the Mesopotamian War, involving an excess of over one hundred thousand dead in casualties, a feat that would not be matched in Mesopotamia for another thousand years. As a result of multiple inscription and murals by the Khemetri, as well chronologies and first-hand accounts from the Ymaryn, it is considered one of the most well documented battle in all of ancient history.

The battle also marked the end of the Bronze age and the dawn of the Iron age as it had shown the material superiority helped carried the Ymaryn to strategic and political victory that would otherwise turned into a catastrophe.
Like Citino asked before, what's the zero date of AD represent here?
 
Not really. Other people, not using numbers particularly, came to the same conclusion. So even if I am wrong, using numbers isn't particularly to blame.

Also, I'm not arguing about using numbers with you any more. You're never convincing me that it's useless, and I don't think I can convince you to give up your loathing of them.

I'm willing to debate the claims, but only outside that context.

*Deep breath.*

Okay, first, I'm calming down and deleting this rant I typed up. I'll assume you are merely arguing out of ignorance as opposed to malice.

The problem with your analysis isn't that you are using numbers. I both greatly agree and support using numbers to analyze things. The problem is, well there are couple at least.
  1. You have combined Stats and Actions into the same economy. However both serve desperately different purposes and are gained through significantly different means, in addition to having vastly different limits. They are effectively economies that can not be directly translated to each other. This throws off the entirety of your analysis to drastic degrees with how it effects people. Simply separating the two economies and using something like economy as the measure of which to reduce all stats to would do wonders for the effectiveness of your analysis.
  2. You have focused far too much on actions as a separate entity, as opposed to their overall chains and connections to allowing other actions to work. This is something that is numerically measurable, how many actions and stats does a series of actions cost to operate, and how much is gained by replacing certain steps. Much of the reason for this is because of problem number 1.
Fundamentally, my problem isn't that you are trying to achieve numerical analysis. My problem is that you are doing what I view as a very bad numerical analysis. You are trying to vastly over simplify the system of actions, and then trying to out right ignore the mathematics behind actions interacting with each other.

I min max for fun, and a large part of that is creating calculations to evaluate things. As such, I view you're claims that I 'Just hate numbers,' as a direct insult. I love numbers to the point where I find shoddy analysis using them to be maddening. That's my problem with your analysis, not that you are using numbers, but that your numerical analysis has merely latched on to the most obvious things you can apply numbers to, refused to expand beyond it, and simplified it to the point where it actually does not achieve what you have set out to do in the first place.

If you want me to stop calling out that your numerical analysis is wrong every time you make it, meet my standards. Otherwise admit that I have a point and that you either do not have the time or inclination to put the effort into creating an analysis to reflect it (understandable and I assure you that I, at least, will not hold ill will towards not doing the extra work), or stop complaining that I'm pointing out that you are wrong every time I catch you making a mistake.

Pointing out mistakes in analysis is something we should encourage people to do, even if we feel hurt that our time and effort creating something was easily dismantled in a fraction of the time. Even if you tell me "I can't convince you otherwise," I still have reason to critique work that you have put on this thread that here for everyone to view. This is not targeting you, this is targeting your analysis, and despite your feelings on the matter, doing so helps people put various analysis in the thread under closer scrutiny, and as such is a benefit to the thread in general.


So stop with these retorts of, 'well you just hate my form of analysis.' It's annoying that criticizing someone else's hard work is way easier than actually doing that hard work and it means that every time you make a claim you can expect way more people to poke holes into it than you have time to actually address, so I understand the frustration, but that is the nature of discussing various arguments.
 
in passive policy i want to end up with 2/3 infra + law bonus, 2 defenses, 1 forestry. in the near future.
We should end up with a spread close to that with the current vote. Only difference will be that we are on 1 defence instead of 2.

*shrug*

Not quite ideal, but we are getting another passive soonish so we can put that on defense.
 
On forests I think we will be doing a lot of those now:
Our very system encourages doing it since some of the guild actions require forest.
We are also going to be having a megaproject that needs a lot of it in Redhill and if Abby is right in his speculation then I am all for the "Great Forge".
AN comments so far have greatly inclined me to do it. I will make sure to keep these spread around and argue for TREES!

To expand a bit on that: Don't forget that this is the Antiquity, wood may be omnipresent and its production relatively easy to expand but it is still a strategic resource, the more forests the better and they help in defending our territory too, so why not? Besides meeting our current needs it would also help us in the far future. Once we reach something like the Renaissance and later, some things become really expensive in terms of wood, especially ships. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if we needed to add a forest slot to Build Boats actions around that time in order to build the really big ships of that era as well as maintaining the fleets. Relying on single actions just to meet our immediate needs at that time will not cut it if we want to remain a naval power. It's basically paying in advance.

And if we have tons and tons of open slots of forest, then we can sell it. With the advancement of civilization, wood is likely to become a trade goods sooner or later or even if we gain contact with a civ that doesn't have the capacity for large forests or requires more wood than they can produce. If we have 30-50 slots open at that time, we would automatically become Dominant in it.
 
We jumped a thousand years in the timeline when we acquired iron. So I considered using AD a reasonable choice.
0 AD would need to be some sort of major event. Christianity used the general year Christ was born as a marker partly because, ya'know, Christianity, and partly because it was fairly convenient.

If anything, this battle has more right to be 0 AD than whatever happened 200 years ago.
 
No idea. Help me figure that one out or change the date to something else.



We jumped a thousand years in the timeline when we acquired iron. So I considered using AD a reasonable choice.
Actually, how about you just change this event to the seminal event by which all calendars are dated? It's a very big event, very easy to track, and it's certainly going to change everything that comes later. Something like 0 Common Era, because this event kicked off the idea of peer powers and especially peer power diplomacy.
 
Yeah either have it be the day the peace treaty was accepted or the day we finally made the PttS and established a reliable calendar.
 
0 AD would need to be some sort of major event. Christianity used the general year Christ was born as a marker partly because, ya'know, Christianity, and partly because it was fairly convenient.

If anything, this battle has more right to be 0 AD than whatever happened 200 years ago.
Actually, how about you just change this event to the seminal event by which all calendars are dated? It's a very big event, very easy to track, and it's certainly going to change everything that comes later. Something like 0 Common Era, because this event kicked off the idea of peer powers and especially peer power diplomacy.

Done.

Anybody have a better explanation of why this battle marked the end of the Bronze Age? I am not satisfied with the reasoning.
 
Done.

Anybody have a better explanation of why this battle marked the end of the Bronze Age? I am not satisfied with the reasoning.
There were minimum two Iron equipped civilizations, and iron was already beginning to proliferate on a massive scale. With the advent of iron in the Highlanders and a group of tribes known as the Metal Workers, the Trelli and Khemetri rapidly found themselves the only buyers of tin left, because the others had moved to the far more simple to access iron. Other civilizations to the east of the Ymaryn quickly faded into irrelevance, as the world began to orbit around the Iron People and the Bronze Khemetri.
 
Done.

Anybody have a better explanation of why this battle marked the end of the Bronze Age? I am not satisfied with the reasoning.
Well, the use of proto-steel weapons by the Ymaryn, and the increasing proliferation of iron among other societies in this time, including the HK's use of iron against the Ymaryn, meant that Bronze was no longer considered the supreme metal any longer. The battle would likely be the last point in which a Bronze equipped army would truly dominate the field, since we know it will take ~100 years before the Khemetri would fight the Ymaryn again, by which time the newly developed iron weapons would be fully available to their entire military, and ever steel might start to make its appearance in full.
 
To expand a bit on that: Don't forget that this is the Antiquity, wood may be omnipresent and its production relatively easy to expand but it is still a strategic resource, the more forests the better and they help in defending our territory too, so why not? Besides meeting our current needs it would also help us in the far future. Once we reach something like the Renaissance and later, some things become really expensive in terms of wood, especially ships. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if we needed to add a forest slot to Build Boats actions around that time in order to build the really big ships of that era as well as maintaining the fleets. Relying on single actions just to meet our immediate needs at that time will not cut it if we want to remain a naval power. It's basically paying in advance.

And if we have tons and tons of open slots of forest, then we can sell it. With the advancement of civilization, wood is likely to become a trade goods sooner or later or even if we gain contact with a civ that doesn't have the capacity for large forests or requires more wood than they can produce. If we have 30-50 slots open at that time, we would automatically become Dominant in it.
You know what this is actually a good set of points I completely missed. Thank you!

My only real commentary, as an expansion on what you are saying here, is that the wood trade will really open up when we get the north trade post and our ships get bigger. Some side facts in addition, and supporting, what you have said in your second paragraph.
 
*Deep breath.*

Okay, first, I'm calming down and deleting this rant I typed up. I'll assume you are merely arguing out of ignorance as opposed to malice.

The problem with your analysis isn't that you are using numbers. I both greatly agree and support using numbers to analyze things. The problem is, well there are couple at least.
  1. You have combined Stats and Actions into the same economy. However both serve desperately different purposes and are gained through significantly different means, in addition to having vastly different limits. They are effectively economies that can not be directly translated to each other. This throws off the entirety of your analysis to drastic degrees with how it effects people. Simply separating the two economies and using something like economy as the measure of which to reduce all stats to would do wonders for the effectiveness of your analysis.
  2. You have focused far too much on actions as a separate entity, as opposed to their overall chains and connections to allowing other actions to work. This is something that is numerically measurable, how many actions and stats does a series of actions cost to operate, and how much is gained by replacing certain steps. Much of the reason for this is because of problem number
Fundamentally, my problem isn't that you are trying to achieve numerical analysis. My problem is that you are doing what I view as a very bad numerical analysis. You are trying to vastly over simplify the system of actions, and then trying to out right ignore the mathematics behind actions interacting with each other.

I min max for fun, and a large part of that is creating calculations to evaluate things. As such, I view you're claims that I 'Just hate numbers,' as a direct insult. I love numbers to the point where I find shoddy analysis using them to be maddening. That's my problem with your analysis, not that you are using numbers, but that your numerical analysis has merely latched on to the most obvious things you can apply numbers to, refused to expand beyond it, and simplified it to the point where it actually does not achieve what you have set out to do in the first place.

If you want me to stop calling out that your numerical analysis is wrong every time you make it, meet my standards. Otherwise admit that I have a point and that you either do not have the time or inclination to put the effort into creating an analysis to reflect it (understandable and I assure you that I, at least, will not hold ill will towards not doing the extra work), or stop complaining that I'm pointing out that you are wrong every time I catch you making a mistake.

Pointing out mistakes in analysis is something we should encourage people to do, even if we feel hurt that our time and effort creating something was easily dismantled in a fraction of the time. Even if you tell me "I can't convince you otherwise," I still have reason to critique work that you have put on this thread that here for everyone to view. This is not targeting you, this is targeting your analysis, and despite your feelings on the matter, doing so helps people put various analysis in the thread under closer scrutiny, and as such is a benefit to the thread in general.

So stop with these retorts of, 'well you just hate my form of analysis.' It's annoying that criticizing someone else's hard work is way easier than actually doing that hard work and it means that every time you make a claim you can expect way more people to poke holes into it than you have time to actually address, so I understand the frustration, but that is the nature of discussing various arguments.
am sempeel man triin to uderstad:

If I understand this argument correctly, you want to keep actions entirely separate, using them only as a measure of what we have/expect to have, and plan around that, rather than assume we gain extra actions through higher stats in particularly expensive fields.

With this understanding in mind, you propose to peg everything to the price of Econ in terms of stats, and have everything trace back to Econ in some way, shape or form. Using this system, you'd bring everything into line based around how much Econ it costs, tracing through the cheapest statlines.

I think I still might be misunderstanding some things, and I'm not entirely sure how your proposed framework would look, so eh? feedback?
 
it's the one from ST TC.
Yeah. I'm just not sure if that one has popped up yet(for example Greenshore made a aqueduct a long time ago and we have had no notification from them yet).

Anyway, from the Stallions or Redshore.

We are getting a third as far as I can tell, but which one I don't know.


As an aside I now remember the third argument I saw and @pblur raises an excellent point that to get True Cities we have to lower our Econ Expansion past certain points. This means that cities are actually self correcting, as after a certain point, it will become incredibly hard for Expansion to drop past the threshold needed to spawn another city. Diminishing returns if you will.

Based on an off the cuff eyeballing estimate I figure that number is probably equal to or greater than four.
 
The Battle of Bloodvalley took place between the Khemeti Empire under the command of Reshemhetari the Great and the Ymaryn Kingdom under General Yenya in Gullvalley on Gull River just south of Hatriver.

The battle is generally dated to 0 CE, and is considered the climactic battle of the Mesopotamian War, involving an excess of over one hundred thousand dead in casualties, a feat that would not be matched in Mesopotamia for another thousand year. As a result of multiple inscription and murals by the Khemetri, as well chronologies and first-hand accounts from the Ymaryn, it is considered one of the most well documented battle in all of ancient history.

The battle also marked the end of the Bronze age and the dawn of the Iron age as it marked the last time that a Bronze army had matched or drawn an Iron age army in a major battle. Iron had already proliferated to the Highlander Kingdom and Europe had already started to see the spread of ironworking.

Implemented suggestions.
 
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