Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
You realize its likely they will just codify and/or tweak it slightly?
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- The willow crowned hill
- Pronouns
- She/They
Of course, except that nothing in the update suggests that we'd be treating it substantially differently, and there's always going to be a bias towards tradition.
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
It was a mega project were highly unlike to be limited to 'minor' changes.
- Location
- United States
You do realize that upgrading our Law won't change the fact that some labor is considered more important than other labor right?
It would be rather silly if all labor was made to be worth the same, because that means that a carpenter or a blacksmith's work would be worth the same as someone who carries boxes or something.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Simple there are some jobs that anyone can do. People that pay in labor do those jobs. People with the skills to make coin pay in coin to avoid somewhat demeaning work. If we need specialist help we hire them.
I honestly do not care about WC that much and would prefer the government upgrade for better administration. On the law the only thing I am strongly against is unrestricted trading in food.
- Location
- Philippines
Food and coin should work if we also include that we tax only enough to fill our store houses and nothing more allowing others freedom to deal with their excess as they see fit.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Why would we change it that majorly, there has been no real overt negative apparent to the ones currently updating it so why would they do anything but codify it?
- Location
- Panama City
True, but I was thinking it more along the lines of the example I gave above, where labor can be paid out doing work on public works, which is easy to track.
- Location
- United States
I just looked it up to be sure, but all of our martial raising actions cost wealth, so it can be assumed that we pay our warriors in coin.Also Food, even with our best effort at preservation will spoil.
Coins are too rare to cope with a growing economy.
And labor is vulnerable to market shifts as more unskilled/skilled labor shows up.
I suppose it is too late to go full commie and say everything is the property of the king
And what if the Wars last 3+ turns? Very few people would live that long so as to sort things out.
Also, a single person would not be fighting for over 3 generations, they would likely fight until they started getting old and then gp back to their farm. Most yeomen would likely only campaign when they have no farming to do and come back during harvesting season.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
So the carpenter or blacksmith with pay in coin. Paying in labor oddly enough tends to mean that your labor is not valuable because if it was you would have the coin to pay in coin.
- Location
- I think somewhere. I might be nowhere though
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Coin and/or luxuries. Do remember that wealth counts in luxuries, unless that has changed and I don't remember it.
We're probably never going to dip below our current figure of 90% farmers/food producers before we change law systems again, so if we think we have enough metal in circulation for the remaining 10% to be able maintain fluidity that seems like a sensible combo.
- Location
- United States
How would we define public works? What happens when some public works are considered to be worth more than others? Who determines how much public works labor is worth? the Traders would likely consider road work to be worth more than building a governor's palace after all.
It seems like something far too complex to do properly right now.
- Location
- indeterminate, possibly non-existent
- Pronouns
- Any
[X] [Law] Community health
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
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- Location
- United States
Yeah, but luxuries can easily be sold for coin or food, so I think that my point still stands.
keenscythe
No longer NEET
- Location
- WA, USA
Alright I concede my argument against having Soldier's paying in labor.
Although hopefully we can agree on increasing the types of Coinage instead of only relying on silver and gold.
But why add that level of complication? Are our bureaucrats going to constantly reassess, based on market conditions how many hours of bricklaying is equaivalent to the base tax rate, or are they going to just set a level and keep it regardless of market conditions? Either way can lead to huge problems.
I get that people in the thread might want to help those unfortunates who might not be able to pay whatever the minimum or flat tax rate ( if there is a minimum) is. But generally those people won't have very valuable labor either. The State or their families will have to take care of them anyway. Why make them jump through the hoops of makework labor?
And yeah, there might be economic crises and mass unemployment, bu
- Location
- Panama City
Infrastructure projects and roads obviously. They'd all be counted the same. And the answer to the rest of the questions is the government. You're making this out to be waaaay more complex than it sis.
[X] [Law] Flexibility
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
The most important things for a legal system (in my opinion at least) are the ability to respond to changing situations and the ability to be understood by the public at large (which I think falls under enforcement practicality)
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
The way I see it, this is fairly simple and allows farmers (i.e. 90% of our population) to pay in food.
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
I see this as a sliding scale in how much control the government exerts on the food supply, and so I think the middle option is best. Also I'm pretty sure the granaries are controlled by the government so private actors can't do tricky things like make granaries smaller.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Given what the last Heroic Mystic leader gave us, I think this is a fairly safe vote.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
@Academia Nut, what would the 'Honour the gods' option entail?
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
The most important things for a legal system (in my opinion at least) are the ability to respond to changing situations and the ability to be understood by the public at large (which I think falls under enforcement practicality)
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
The way I see it, this is fairly simple and allows farmers (i.e. 90% of our population) to pay in food.
[] [Food] Food should not be traded outside the kingdom, except perhaps in times of crisis
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[] [Food] The crown will maintain emergency supplies through taxation, the rest is not their concern
I see this as a sliding scale in how much control the government exerts on the food supply, and so I think the middle option is best. Also I'm pretty sure the granaries are controlled by the government so private actors can't do tricky things like make granaries smaller.
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
Given what the last Heroic Mystic leader gave us, I think this is a fairly safe vote.
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
[X] [Bonus] Gain at least two tech upgrades (Admin and Social biased, exploding rolls)
@Academia Nut, what would the 'Honour the gods' option entail?
[] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
Once again, I'm unsure of many of the options. However just as previously, I know for certain that this one is a must-have for me.
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
... I wonder, wouldn't this possibly make it harder to trigger an Golden Age if our stat-roof grows?
Once again, I'm unsure of many of the options. However just as previously, I know for certain that this one is a must-have for me.
[] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
... I wonder, wouldn't this possibly make it harder to trigger an Golden Age if our stat-roof grows?
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- Location
- United States
It would become necessary if we want to move to a coin only tax system, yeah.
But right now the only people who use coin are the upper class and traders, and trading with less valuable coins such as copper or something would devalue our currency in respect to other countries, such as the Trelli, who would be able to buy our goods for much less than they are actually worth because their coinage would become much more valuable than ours.
We're keeping up with coinage demand for the foreseeable future, so I see no need to change that as of now.
- Location
- United States
[X] [Law] Practicality of enforcement
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
Practicality is very important. The update itself pointed to the laws that everyone broke because nobody could enforce it...leading to people getting it in their heads that breaking other laws was somehow ok.
If people have food, then they can hand it over or sell it for coin and hand over that. Labour is simply too difficult to oversee/calculate the worth of (since there's so many differing values of all the professions). There's no shortage of work for refugees, so they'll easily be able to pay the taxes with food or coin.
Edit: Since practically all farmers will pay with food, the granaries will easily overflow and allow us to get a bunch of wealth from external food trade.
[X] [Tax] Food or coin
[X] [Food] When granaries are full, those with excess should be able to distribute the fruits of their labour as they see fit
[X] [Heir] Let the wise lead us (Poor Martial, Mediocre Admin and Diplo, Heroic Mystic)
[X] [Bonus] Upgrade government to Classical Elective Monarchy
Practicality is very important. The update itself pointed to the laws that everyone broke because nobody could enforce it...leading to people getting it in their heads that breaking other laws was somehow ok.
If people have food, then they can hand it over or sell it for coin and hand over that. Labour is simply too difficult to oversee/calculate the worth of (since there's so many differing values of all the professions). There's no shortage of work for refugees, so they'll easily be able to pay the taxes with food or coin.
Edit: Since practically all farmers will pay with food, the granaries will easily overflow and allow us to get a bunch of wealth from external food trade.
