Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
ThrawnCA said:
I'd rather defence. It doesn't just save us a stat point; it takes a free action. An action that we always want but can never prioritise. Much much better than a single Econ point.

Plus more Econ *can* be bad in edge cases.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Edge cases.
I mean, yeah, Defense or Infrastructure are better, but Economy drip is something we can fire and forget and just...sit and receive benefits.
 
Hopefully it's not another environment event, but it would be funny if a fault opened between ST and nomadic plain as our trade caravan prepares to set out.:V

@Academia Nut

Is it another roll that you had to look up probability?

Also, our kings have been pretty average right?
Are Department chief been keeping their average and sometimes above average skills? Or have they became completely average?
 
Personally, I just don't believe we're going to start influencing and integrating rapidly enough that the subordinate thing will be worthless, especially with people already concerned about overextension, but I can see the benefits that defense policy will have over the 34 turns it will take to finish building significant walls.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Twenty turns of infrastructure would likely result in an extra aqueduct, saltern, and temple. Building tall suits us. Reasonable. Doubling up, though... for a set-and-forget mechanic, I'd rather spread out to cover more types of development, rather than trying to rush something that isn't designed to rush.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It builds them pretty slow already, 1/3 of a secondary per turn but without the resource cost, putting it at ~1 secondary total but it still is very slow. Even with 2 we'd pnly be getting things every couple turns.
Either Defense or a second Infrastructure IMO. Both are very powerful. Defense is more efficient but a lot less flexible.
Edit: it should be noted that defence wasn't on the original list of options. It was added this turn.
ThrawnCA said:
If I'm understanding the mechanics correctly, the best thing we could do for that is build the Redshore aqueduct. Every extra city candidate increases the slot limit for the existing cities.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We don't know for certain but last time it increased the limit by the same amount of extra EE room it provided. +4 limit and +4 LTE. The way to keep cities is to just spend LTE on things like Poppies.
 
Last edited:
BungieONI said:
*sigh*

Yeah I don't think we can agree on this and for that I apologize. Can we table this discussion until one of our cities pops? I don't want to flood the thread with my annoyance with this subject.


I love the idea of saying "Fuck those folks over there if they come over here," with spikiness. Though once we are on it for a while we might want to switch to Infrastructure passive so it can build Colossal walls.



And I don't agree with your base premise that the law only stops the build up and does nothing for what is already there. We are re-structuring our entire legal system. That obviously includes cleaning house and I intend to push for ripping bad things out when we do it as anything else is rather stupid.

I think that if we went with it we would be dealing with a gross event chain that would set our hair on fire while we are trying to deal with the external issues abounding, which would delay actually doing the law, and I had zero confidence we could actually do anything useful which would not end up with us going into the Law with zero or less stability.

E: I am going to go into the Adorable picture thread since I am suddenly annoyed with this thread. You folks have fun for a bit!
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I mean, I still don't really understand why you hold your position on the subject, but I'm fine with tabling this discussion for later if you want. I would rather not annoy anyone in what's supposed to be a fun quest.
 
Keep in mind Free Cities give us another Passive Policy. With Redshore and presumably Blackriver becoming Free Cities (I'd rather not have to pay all that Econ and lose centralization limit) we'd have 4 Passive Policies. At which point grabbing all the immediately shiny policies is entirely doable (defense, city, infrastructure, and vassal/research) and by then- given AN's game philosophy our individual passives will start getting better.

I hesitate to say we should start spamming Free Cities, but in the mid to long term we should keep an eye on ideal regional capitals/Free Cities. For instance, a reclaimed Xohyr to consolidate our grip on the Lowlands, Blackmouth to secure control over our Northern Territory, and possibly something to our East if/when we drive back Trelli expansion.

The idea is as we expand and consolidate our grip on our subordinates we to some extent replace them with productive and dependent Free Cities to further project our reach.
 
BungieONI said:
And I don't agree with your base premise that the law only stops the build up and does nothing for what is already there. We are re-structuring our entire legal system. That obviously includes cleaning house and I intend to push for ripping bad things out when we do it as anything else is rather stupid.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The thing is though, we're not restructuring our legal system. This megaproject has only been about updating our old one from the very start to fit our new situation and techs. Also, it does not "obviously" include ripping house. Law projects don't mean Criminal Justice projects. As of the current moment, the limited Blackbirds we have are the only thing we have close to crime-fighters. Fighting corruption is most certainly not happening automatically.

The only good point I can see as to why we should not have looked into it is the possibility for instability.
 
If we have a comprehensive "modern" law, we might be able to take steps to adjust our political and economical systems, and that might help.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Economy drip is something we can fire and forget and just...sit and receive benefits.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
All the passive policies are like that :).

But if you really want "fire and forget", then your best choice is a policy that supplies not only the stats but also the actions to use them. Innovation, infrastructure, and defense are prime candidates.

ETA Forests are great too. The result of twenty turns of forestry policy would be a beautiful thing.
 
Last edited:
Susano said:
If we have a comprehensive "modern" law, we might be able to take steps to adjust our political and economical systems, and that might help.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It will most certainly reduce the rate of corruption and likely stop its rise for the moment, but that still doesn't answer as to the corruption already there. Since we didn't take the potential corruption-reducing option, the only other way to get rid of the built-up corruption is to hope that Black-birds could upgrade into a force that can deal with it. We have no other method of reducing corruption and crime.
 
notgreat said:
It builds them pretty slow already, 1/3 of a secondary per turn but without the resource cost, putting it at ~1 secondary total but it still is very slow.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, exactly. If we need something right now, or in the next five turns, passive policies are not the answer.

But over time, they can shape our civilization for free. And "tall hedgehog" is a shape I'd really like.
 
Karugus said:
Keep in mind Free Cities give us another Passive Policy. With Redshore and presumably Blackriver becoming Free Cities (I'd rather not have to pay all that Econ and lose centralization limit) we'd have 4 Passive Policies. At which point grabbing all the immediately shiny policies is entirely doable (defense, city, infrastructure, and vassal/research) and by then- given AN's game philosophy our individual passives will start getting better.

I hesitate to say we should start spamming Free Cities, but in the mid to long term we should keep an eye on ideal regional capitals/Free Cities. For instance, a reclaimed Xohyr to consolidate our grip on the Lowlands, Blackmouth to secure control over our Northern Territory, and possibly something to our East if/when we drive back Trelli expansion.

The idea is as we expand and consolidate our grip on our subordinates we to some extent replace them with productive and dependent Free Cities to further project our reach.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
One of the best sites if we want to test out Free Cities to see what they are like is Lower Valleyhome. Any problems start there and we can fix them quickly due to proximity.

Reason I say this is that I want to get our feet wet with the concept before spreading them out, since it is just good sense to test new things to see what happens when the system is modified. Aside from that though I am not adverse to the idea of having a few of them around the place. We are probably going to start to need them if we don't explode in the next 20 updates.
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
It will most certainly reduce the rate of corruption and likely stop its rise for the moment, but that still doesn't answer as to the corruption already there. Since we didn't take the potential corruption-reducing option, the only other way to get rid of the built-up corruption is to hope that Black-birds could upgrade into a force that can deal with it. We have no other method of reducing corruption and crime.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm really unsure what you want. We're cracking down on the people now, and then we will change the system. So, what approach is left uncovered here?
 
BungieONI said:
Reason I say this is that I want to get our feet wet with the concept before spreading them out, since it is just good sense to test new things to see what happens when the system is modified. Aside from that though I am not adverse to the idea of having a few of them around the place. We are probably going to start to need them if we don't explode in the next 20 updates.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
With a second passive policy if we go True City Support, we can handle the upkeep of 4 True Cities, which should help.
 
Susano said:
I'm really unsure what you want. We're cracking down on the people now, and then we will change the system. So, what approach is left uncovered here?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He's talking about this: [] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)

Quest said:
TBf, with a second passive policy if we go True City Support, we can handle the upkeep of 4 True Cities
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Oh I forgot about that one. Useful to keep in mind and lets us ease our way into optimizing our system.
 
BungieONI said:
He's talking about this: [] [Crisis] Try to get to the bottom of things (???)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
*sighs* I didn't think this would warrant a disclaimer, but yes, I know what he wanted in terms of options. But that's not what I meant. His argumentation for why we should have chosen that just doesn't add up. There simply IS no "bottom of things" here. There is no evil overlord to slay at the end of the dungeon. We crack down on people now, and eventually change the system. So once again, what approach is left uncovered here?
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
It will most certainly reduce the rate of corruption and likely stop its rise for the moment, but that still doesn't answer as to the corruption already there. Since we didn't take the potential corruption-reducing option, the only other way to get rid of the built-up corruption is to hope that Black-birds could upgrade into a force that can deal with it. We have no other method of reducing corruption and crime.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The existing corruption was the main reason the law reform was prompted, so it'll be a pretty big failure if it doesn't answer it.

It all mainly stems from the fact we're hemorrhaging massive amounts of cash into the underworld as our laws aren't complex enough to deal with it properly, which is what's being addressed by the Mega. Once that root caused is fixed a lot of the ancillary issues that arose from it will also be much less problematic.
 
Last edited:
Susano said:
*sighs* I didn't think this would warrant a disclaimer, but yes, I know what he wanted in terms of options. But that's not what I meant. His argumentation for why we should have chosen that just doesn't add up. There simply IS no "bottom of things" here. There is no evil overlord to slay at the end of the dungeon. We crack down on people now, and eventually change the system. So once again, what approach is left uncovered here?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
As I said before, you don't have to find a mastermind to actually find all the hidden corruption. We're cracking down on what little we can see, not on what is there. To go back to my earlier analogy I said in my post to you, I compare it to arresting those using drugs as opposed to finding out where these guys are getting the drugs from.
 
Susano said:
*sighs* I didn't think this would warrant a disclaimer, but yes, I know what he wanted in terms of options. But that's not what I meant. His argumentation for why we should have chosen that just doesn't add up. There simply IS no "bottom of things" here. There is no evil overlord to slay at the end of the dungeon. We crack down on people now, and eventually change the system. So once again, what approach is left uncovered here?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
There is a possibility that someone incited a bunch of people to riot, since we know of at least one spy network active within our civilization.

We likely wouldn't have been able to catch them though, and even if we did it probably wouldn't have given us enough stability anyways.

It could also be like you suggest, with their being nor grand mastermind, but the problem with the update is that no one knows for sure what the problem is.
 
Thomasfoolery said:
The existing corruption was the main reason the law reform was prompted, so it'll be a pretty big failure if it doesn't answer it.

It all stems from the fact we're hemorrhaging massive amounts of cash into the underworld as our laws aren't complex enough to deal with it properly, which is what's being addressed by the Mega. Once that root caused is fixed a lot of the ancillary issues that arose form it will also be much less problematic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The mounting of corruption was the main reason the law reform was prompted, not its mere existence in itself. We're updating the law to close loopholes, not establishing a corruption-hunting force. The corrupt will still be there in a somewhat reduced form to adapt to our law.
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
As I said before, you don't have to find a mastermind to actually find all the hidden corruption. We're cracking down on what little we can see, not on what is there. To go back to my earlier analogy I said in my post to you, I compare it to arresting those using drugs as opposed to finding out where these guys are getting the drugs from.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But, ultimately, the reason the corruption level is so high is systemic. Starting investigative witch hunts won't help in the long term. Hence yes, we plaster the issue up for now, until we do have a systemic solution, in the form of Iron Age Law.

Raichu1972 said:
There is a possibility that someone incited a bunch of people to riot, since we know of at least one spy network active within our civilization.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We do? Rulwyna II had some good contacts and personal influence as a storehouse manager, but that's all and she's long dead. I think you're reading too much into that.

The thing is - what was said in the update, isn't that what you would expect in a situation with negative stab and antiquated laws? But in that case, why is a shadow network needed as additional explanation?
 
PyrrosWarrior said:
The mounting of corruption was the main reason the law reform was prompted, not its mere existence in itself. We're updating the law to close loopholes, not establishing a corruption-hunting force. The corrupt will still be there in a somewhat reduced form to adapt to our law.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Honestly, so long as we no longer end up with cases like we've seen where corruption encourages blameless people to break the law to make ends meet I'm fine with that. Our law should prioritize helping the innocent as opposed to simply punishing the corrupt. It would be nice if we could get a concept of restorative justice going...
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top