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Paths of Civilization

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maximillian said:
what's the Ymaryn take on the right of conquest?
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Generally frowned upon, but if no one is living on the land because they took a swing at you and paid the price, it would be a shame to let it go to waste. Also, if when you occupy territory for logistical reasons you should take care of those living there as best as possible given the circumstances (so they will loot and burn everything in their path, but they try to keep the murder and especially the rape down), and if those people come to depend on you for protection, it would be wrong to abandon them.
 
Malevolo said:
Rowers are necessary because we aren't true sailboats and we don't have air currents to move us around, and because we need to go upstream in the rivers sometimes and you can't do that with sails only. The Cog (ship) - Wikipedia is the evolution of the Knarr - Wikipedia. Another thing that i wanto to point out the trirremes and the dromons would be the orcas, not as fast as dolphin, not as big as a whalle but more mortal tham both of them , so going into trirremes area is good, and we have some techs that would turn a trirreme in something even more fearfull like Clinker (boat building) - Wikipedia, because they used Mortise and tenon - Wikipedia, winch would lead to Hogging and sagging - Wikipedia, because they dind't have a frame, the hull was the frame.
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In what way are we not true sailboats? From what I know longships only rowed when there wasn't any wind, though admittedly we would need to row upriver...

I did the research when we had the original longship v size debate. I don't think that a clinker hull would be extremely helpful for a ship intended to ram. A stiff hull seems better for that, as it would disperse rather than concentrate the force.
 
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Umi-san said:
legacy (+ dam) > pragmatics
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Legacy is both unsupported and arguably has support against it. Again, we've had 2 megaprojects going at once before, and we didn't get a legacy for it. Its possible that one exists but we need to start two at once, or that we need to finish two at once, but the fact that having two active at once wasn't enough suggests those are unlikely...and of the two, "finish two at once" seems the most likely, since it takes way more work...but that would also take way more work, because its difficult to keep the progress balanced with megaproject support on, and the fact that there's both 2 turns of uncertainty in all the megaproject timelines and the possibility of critting and getting free progress.
 
Anyways, since it's been quiet for 14 minutes and kami-sama has not yet dispersed awe and justice to us... I kind of wish the US had mandatory self-defense classes from middle through high school just so that ppl would know how to defend themselves.
 
Candesce said:
Hrm.

Main Forests is LTE-Positive, isn't it?

Our only way to reduce LTE and keep from popping cities by accident at the moment is Build Walls on Massive, which we might want to consider doing anyway, given Nomads. Probably a good idea to do that instead of trying to do two Megaprojects at once.
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Vineyards and Poppies both use LTE. Not sure if anything else does.
 
Umi-san said:
In what way are we not true sailboats? From what I know longships only rowed when there wasn't any wind, though admittedly we would need to row upriver...

I did the research when we had the original longship v size debate. I don't think that a clinker hull would be extremely helpful for a ship intended to ram. A stiff hull seems better for that, as it would disperse rather than concentrate the force.
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The problem is, on rivers there isn't constant winds, they come and go, so you really need the rowers to make it go up and down. A true Sailboat don't use rowers, the ones that use are called galleys not sailboats, because galleys travel mostly by rowing not by sailing. The advantage of the clinker is not the clinker per se, but the skeleton of the ship winch applies more force when the naval rams hits.

With mortise and tennon you puncture the ship, with clinker (and carvel) there's so much strength that you break or cut the ship in half Naval ram - Wikipedia
 
Excited about the palace and boat completion. Hope that the boringness continue. Makes me wonder what is the HK's strategy from now on. Expand to the south?
 
@Abby Normal I don't think of "It's unlikely to occur" as evidence *against* it considering that even if we fail to achieve it once we always finish megaprojects we were intending to do anyways.

Finishing both at once mostly just takes starting both at once. Since we don't know specifically what would make a megaproject finish earlier or not, we'd need to act as if it's completely chance based and thus would need to operate under the expected value of 1 turn more than the minimum.

At least when it comes to the Census and the Games, this would take 5 each. If we start both at the same time we get 6 actions total, 1 for each from us, 2 for 1 and 1 for the other for provinces, and then an extra from symphony. Because they're becoming imbalanced I'd assume our people dedicate the symphony action to the lower of the two.

Which means that we have 3 done, 2 remaining. For that we could either do 1 action and rely on the provinces for the rest or, better yet, we can just do one for each and hit the max required actions, guaranteeing we finish them both. Thus, we would start and finish 2 megaprojects within a single turn, with 100% certainty.
 
Academia Nut said:
I honestly don't know. Plenty happened, but not sure if I have the spark in me today. Anywhere from four if inspiration strikes to 24 if it doesn't.
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Hm. That's good to know; it not being in the next hour or two means I can put of checking this thread till tomorrow.


I mean, technically I could put off checking it indefinitely and wait for the alert, but what's the fun in that?
 
Umi-san said:
Considering that our sea-worthy fishing vessels have outriggers I'm hoping we expand that concept into catamarans and eventually trimarans. Or I guess just into triremes.

We could just go the whole "infantry platform" approach but honestly that just sounds like an ineffective and weird approach to take. I guess it would be helpful with invading them, but they could just throw a bunch of their ships with oil and fire at us in a kamikaze attack.
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No, marines is vastly better tactic right now than anything besides maybe ramming- but the two aren't incompatible and with our general professionalism and ubiquitous iron gear we can field some of the best marines around. Combine that will volley fire of bowmen (who would probably be marines in this case) and a size focused ship would be a lot better than speed focused for centuries at least.

Fireships/hellburners are incredibly specialized naval weapons, ones that would be exceptionally primitive rightnow. Whereas literally every other naval tactic benefits from size. Ramming? Needs a large sturdy ship. Marines? Needs a large capacity and stability. Dolphins? Want to be taller than the other ship and mass to prevent unbalancing the ship. Archer volleys? Need a large stable platform.

Speed focused ships are not remotely going to hold up to a dedicated warship.
 
Candesce said:
Our only way to reduce LTE and keep from popping cities by accident at the moment is Build Walls on Massive, which we might want to consider doing anyway, given Nomads.
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Not quite. We can also Support Subordinate, which may actually help subordinates grow faster. Of course, the major nomad defense subordinates are pretty swole anyway...

Worst case scenario, it's self-correcting. A city pops because there's so much country land attracting people away, we start losing slots on expensive actions, until things get more crowded and the city offers better opportunities again. We lose a few turns of the city's boost to innovation, but nothing serious.
 
Abby Normal said:
Im a bit busy for full debate atm, but this caught my eye: you described a two turn plan, then claimed it was one turn...
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2 turn plan, fully guarantees that the two megaprojects will end on the same, i.e. single, turn.

I.e.
Next turn = Start Census + Start Games Provinces = Census x 2 Games x 1 + (Ideally) 1 Games via Symphony. Total = 3 actions for each.
Next turn = same as above, total = 6 actions for each = max listed action requirement.

Problem: Symphony goes to whichever action has the max, in which case Census would hit 4 and might finish. If so, that's really bad.

Ignoring a potential mid-turn fix, if Symphony occurs but Census doesn't end, we need two more actions for it. We can do Games + Games and hope the provinces dedicate 2 actions toward Census. Or we can do Census + Census and hope the three actions dedicated toward Games are enough to finish it.
 
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Abby Normal said:
Ahh; when you said "start and finish in a single turn" you meant to say "start in a single turn" and, separately, "finish in a single, different turn"
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yes. I guess a better way to have put it would be "start and finish in single/identical turns"

Edited in a hopefully more clear explanation but I think you get the point that, as long as symphony will fill in the megaproject that got less actions, we're guaranteed to finish them on the same turn... :9

if that doesn't occur it will depend on whichever megaproject hits 4 not ending. >.>
 
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Kiba said:
Hope that the boringness continue.
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Yes, please. This last update was the first one in a while when we didn't have any immediate fires to put out.

Shifting Winds - Relations with the Trelli are on fire.
Make the punching stop - our reputation is on fire, thanks to the mine collapse.
Palace Plans / Palace Decisions (note: these two updates were the same half-turn) - our Heir was on fire, and set our relations with the Thunder Horse on fire with him.
Cultural Friction: The Thunder Horse are looking to set the lowlands on fire
All at once: Taxes are on fire, the lowlands culture is on fire
Endings: Relations with the Highlanders are on fire. Xohyr is on fire, but that isn't a problem we have to deal with any more.
Treacherous fall: Our admin is on fire. Also if we don't act now our iron mine is going to be on fire thanks to our neighbors.
Great fun!: The lowlands are on fire.
Competing interests: Our succession is on fire.
Questionable patronage: The climate is still very much on fire, but there really aren't any new fires this year, so lets end it here.

So. Before this latest update, the last time we had a half-turn without something going wrong was ten half-turns ago. It would be really nice to go a full turn without any other crises popping up.


Fat chance of that, though. We've been told that the Palace will give us a much better idea of what is going on in our lands, which means we will undoubtedly discover SOMETHING burning. Or, you know, the nomads might decide to chomp us or something. Probably both, with our luck.
 
Karugus said:
No, marines is vastly better tactic right now than anything besides maybe ramming- but the two aren't incompatible and with our general professionalism and ubiquitous iron gear we can field some of the best marines around. Combine that will volley fire of bowmen (who would probably be marines in this case) and a size focused ship would be a lot better than speed focused for centuries at least.
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Iron gear = if they ram us we drown
Volley fire = hey, shields are a thing. so is a roof over the people rowing
Fire arrows? Two can play at that game.

Karugus said:
Fireships/hellburners are incredibly specialized naval weapons, ones that would be exceptionally primitive rightnow.
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How is filling your ship with combustibles and then setting it on fire a specialized navy weapon? It's a specialized disposal method, if anything.
 
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Umi-san said:
How is filling your ship with combustibles and then setting it on fire a specialized navy weapon?
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Maths.

You have to ensure it burns slow enough that there's a ship by the time it reaches the enemy and is volatile enough that when it reaches the enemy it damages them.

EDIT: not to mention it has to navigate to a moving enemy at sea with no crew.
 
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