Our civilization is simply going through a bad patch. Productivity will return soon or later.

Unless it doesn't because we truly have angered the spirits. Holding out and hoping for better rolls to end the drought only works if the drought is a natural thing rather than a curse on the land for our sins.

[X] Spirit talkers
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
The people that are voting to give away our extremely limited amount of food to strangers and making a big offering seems to believe that our people can live on air until it rains again. Let me remind you, we do not even have enough food for another year despite already instituting harsh rations. What do you think will happen when you decide to give half or more of that food away? How do you think the people whose children are dying will react to such generosity towards strangers? What you're advocating could potentially ruin the civilization that we're trying to build.
 
The people that are voting to give away our extremely limited amount of food to strangers and making a big offering seems to believe that our people can live on air until it rains again. Let me remind you, we do not even have enough food for another year despite already instituting harsh rations. What do you think will happen when you decide to give half or more of that food away? How do you think the people whose children are dying will react to such generosity towards strangers? What you're advocating could potentially ruin the civilization that we're trying to build.
Unless it pleases the spirits and they return us to prosperity as our less enlightened neighbors stay cursed and starving.
 
[X] Spirit talkers
[X] From within
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
Unless it pleases the spirits and they return us to prosperity as our less enlightened neighbors stay cursed and starving.
It's funny that everyone in the region was "cursed" with a drought at the same time but I'm sure a sacrifice will please the spirits and allow us to prosper. After all, the spirits who were so discerning in the initial curse that they will surely be discerning now as well and give us their blessings! Nothing bad could possibly come from providing such a rightous sacrifice while our populace at home starves, certainly not if the "blessing" of the spirits fail to materialize immediately.
 
Last edited:
[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
This isn't Amber age. I doubt we can actually get spirit blessings.

[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)

Yeah, I'm gambling on the drought being natural and the climate bouncing back in the next couple of years
 
If this were Amber Age, we'd be fucked anyway, because that means Harz exists/existed/will exist.
 
The religion thing could be a social option too. Our neighbours might respect the fact that we are a pious people.
We might even use it for propaganda if the drought ends soon after the trip. We could basically go "Hey! You know that terrible drought you suffered from? Well we had a chat with the spirits and had it stopped. You're welcome."
I admit. It is kind of a high-risk high-reward thing. But the sacrifices should give us a small safety net by giving us fewer mouths to feed


I dunno. Lots of civilizations survived for centuries despite doing (and indeed, sometimes because they did) some pretty douchy things (slavery, human sacrifice etc.)
Besides. You can't really judge the morals of stone-age settlers by the same standards as modern-day westerners. If you do that, then like 95% of all pre-modern humans would be "douchebags".
It also seems like the people we'd sacrifice would be willing volunteers from within our tribe. That's how I read it, at least.
Extremely early religion instigates philosophies and the higher-learning caste of priests. The spirit walkers, assuming no magic shenanigans, are a technological advancement option (both the humanities as we know them today and early sciences).
Unless it doesn't because we truly have angered the spirits. Holding out and hoping for better rolls to end the drought only works if the drought is a natural thing rather than a curse on the land for our sins.
This isn't Amber age. I doubt we can actually get spirit blessings.
I am inclined to believe there's no magic shenanigans going on right now, and actually, the main reason I really wish I could do Spirit Walkers is due to the above reasoning. Early religion is a springboard into primitive 'magic,' or - more sensibly - things like basic chemistry and physics under the guise of the supernatural. The first dedicated learning institutions were religious centers for a reason!

Ultimately, however, I am willing to let religion lie for now in favor of growing goodwill. My personal rule here is simple; All three option groups CAN spend food OR save food. I would prefer to do no more than two options that SPEND food. Thus, saving food on the expedition, willingly restricting human sacrifice (the most food intensive option in the Human Sacrifice option group), and generosity (The most food intensive option in the Neighbor group).

I strongly advise against taking triple-spend choices, and honestly generosity/no sacrifice is teetering on the edge of risky for my as is.
 
[X] Lowlands
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
The above two votes are a perfect example of what I'm almost certain will put us even deeper in the hole.
1. Food intensive with no return
2. No sacrifices means maximum food spent during the turn
3. Generosity will likely occur before the worst of the famine sets in (even if we never let a single grain go free when crunch time happens), consuming extra food.

All three options blow food like we can afford it (we can't), and do nothing to ensure we get any back (like attacking the seaside fishers for food, which pays food to have a chance at way more food). Assuming a build like that goes through, we'll likely be spending generations compromising our cultural identity taking on outsiders to make up the massive losses the famine will cause us.
 
[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)

Even if spirits exist, they do not seem to be discerning in their punishment, they do not hold to our ideal of Eye for Eye. They will receive no tribute from us. We will thrive and die by our own hand.

Besides, I'd find it interesting if we do manage to become a completely atheistic culture. I don't think that's ever been done in RL History.

ANYWAY, AN has already shown us the face of the true gods in this quest
 
@Academia Nut, can our people point to how long the rainfall seems to have been decreasing for? Has there been a general trend of lower summer rains in recent years before the spring rains falling?

I'm trying to work out if we're three years into the drought, or more like 6 and we were just able to ignore the earlier years because our infrastructure was good enough.

The worst case, of course, is that this has been getting gradually worse over the last 20 years, in which case we're almost certainly dealing with climatic change, rather than the local equivilent of an El Nino effect. In that case we're probably fucked and we need to go for drastic measures to have a hope of survival.
 
Last edited:
[X] Spirit talkers
[X] From within
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
I would disagree with this. Killing our young doesn't actually harm our future growth, having our adults die would though. They're both the ones who physically farm and breed which are required to rebuild the population, and severe starvation greatly undermines that. Young children on the other hand would be consuming scare resources, while not being able to contribute for years, and due to suffering from famine in their adolescent years they would be physically and mentally diminished for the rest of their lives anyway. Older children and teenagers would be a mistake to kill though, as you've already invested resources into them, and they can contribute.
*shrug* if we kill off our kids and the drought ends in a year we're a bit fucked for a 5 year period or so. It depends on when the cutoff point is. But I otherwise agree.

The above two votes are a perfect example of what I'm almost certain will put us even deeper in the hole.
1. Food intensive with no return
2. No sacrifices means maximum food spent during the turn
3. Generosity will likely occur before the worst of the famine sets in (even if we never let a single grain go free when crunch time happens), consuming extra food.

All three options blow food like we can afford it (we can't), and do nothing to ensure we get any back (like attacking the seaside fishers for food, which pays food to have a chance at way more food). Assuming a build like that goes through, we'll likely be spending generations compromising our cultural identity taking on outsiders to make up the massive losses the famine will cause us.

So why not sacrifice some of our own? You made the point that it builds a sense of community as some die for others, and if the old get sacrificed it arguably would speed up (yet destabilize) our society. It's also just plain economical.

What do you think the political result of distributing food to our neighbors in a time of trouble is like to be? How will it shape our culture and the view other locals have of us?

Also, if we attacked the fishing village and succeeded we'd own the fishing village. If we attacked the fishing village and partially succeeded, we'd have fish and lose some lives. If we attacked the fishing village and didn't succeed, we'd lose some lives and thus save food. It's a win/win/win, unless the drought ends soon and all our warriors are dead, of course.

Also, can someone actually explain WHY we should go pray to spirits who haven't even told us WHY we're being punished?? Like, what's the point of an expedition to that one place? (other than the benefit of receiving divine favor if we get that tribe to like us)
 
Last edited:
Besides, I'd find it interesting if we do manage to become a completely atheistic culture. I don't think that's ever been done in RL History.
There's a certain necessity for religion. Most people tend to need something to orient all of their morals and opinions, and religion makes a nice line in the sand for that. People who identify first as members of a political party before members of a religious group actually become irrationally incapable of believing negative statements about their political leaders. There's simply a need in the average person's mind to have a core belief system that they base everything else upon, and if it's not religion, it may well be battle, like the lowlanders.

Atheism is an old idea, but there needs to be a certain level of general knowledge and higher philosophy needs a chance to be mass distributed before it can really take a front-and-center point in a culture.
So why not sacrifice some of our own? You made the point that it builds a sense of community as some die for others, and if the old get sacrificed it arguably would speed up (yet destabilize) our society. It's also just plain economical.


Also, if we attacked the fishing village and succeeded we'd own the fishing village. If we attacked the fishing village and partially succeeded, we'd have fish and lose some lives. If we attacked the fishing village and didn't succeed, we'd lose some lives and thus save food. It's a win/win/win, unless the drought ends soon and all our warriors are dead, of course.

Also, can someone actually explain WHY we should go pray to spirits who haven't even told us WHY we're being punished?? Like, what's the point of an expedition to that one place? (other than the benefit of receiving divine favor if we get that tribe to like us)
I did make that point. I simply don't want to take that direction, because, for the fifth or sixth time, I am not aiming for some subjectively ideal set of actions, I'm aiming for a particular variety of socio-cultural group, and Soilant Green isn't on the list of social elements I want to include in it.

Yes. Yes. and No. All actions first require the warriors be given extra rations for enough time to give them the strength to make an attack, so not only would we lose lives, we'd lose lives we invested extra rations in, which would ultimately be a net negative or at best break even on food consumption.

Because for the fifth or sixth time, again, religion has the convenient effect of jumpstarting a priest caste, from which springs many early sciences, useful or healthy traditions, and record-keeping practices that are extremely useful for our particular brand of government.
 
Extremely early religion instigates philosophies and the higher-learning caste of priests. The spirit walkers, assuming no magic shenanigans, are a technological advancement option (both the humanities as we know them today and early sciences).


I am inclined to believe there's no magic shenanigans going on right now, and actually, the main reason I really wish I could do Spirit Walkers is due to the above reasoning. Early religion is a springboard into primitive 'magic,' or - more sensibly - things like basic chemistry and physics under the guise of the supernatural. The first dedicated learning institutions were religious centers for a reason!

Ultimately, however, I am willing to let religion lie for now in favor of growing goodwill. My personal rule here is simple; All three option groups CAN spend food OR save food. I would prefer to do no more than two options that SPEND food. Thus, saving food on the expedition, willingly restricting human sacrifice (the most food intensive option in the Human Sacrifice option group), and generosity (The most food intensive option in the Neighbor group).

I strongly advise against taking triple-spend choices, and honestly generosity/no sacrifice is teetering on the edge of risky for my as is.


True enough that religion is a gateway to technological advancement, but it is by no means the only one. We've done very well for ourselves, technologically speaking, with inroads into land management, forestry, soil chemistry, and the like.
 
People who identify first as members of a political party before members of a religious group actually become irrationally incapable of believing negative statements about their political leaders. There's simply a need in the average person's mind to have a core belief system that they base everything else upon, and if it's not religion, it may well be battle, like the lowlanders.

Atheism is an old idea, but there needs to be a certain level of general knowledge and higher philosophy needs a chance to be mass distributed before it can really take a front-and-center point in a culture.

I'm aiming for a particular variety of socio-cultural group, and Soilant Green isn't on the list of social elements I want to include in it.

we'd lose lives we invested extra rations in, which would ultimately be a net negative or at best break even on food consumption.

Because for the fifth or sixth time, again, religion has the convenient effect of jumpstarting a priest caste, from which springs many early sciences, useful or healthy traditions, and record-keeping practices that are extremely useful for our particular brand of government.
It's true that studies show that believers have an easier time divorcing emotions from logic. On the other hand, they can be completely illogical when it comes to their religion. And as other people have said, religion is not the only way forward.

Yes, you've said it 4 or 5 times, and I've generally agreed. This was about why we should send a group of people to another village, not why we should(n't) find religion internally. Obv.

Soilant Green is a completely different affair, as I assume you know. That's cannibalism and unwilling death, not knowing self-sacrifice to propitiate the spirits on the behalf of the relatives you're dying for. Please explain how this conflicts with the particular variety you are aiming for, i.e. a social-class fluid meritocratic oligarchy/republic.

We'd lose rations if the warriors failed but probably only slightly more rations than they'd have received anyways, i.e. enough to help them stay strong, which would be outweighed over the long term by the amount of rations that they do not consume. And if they win, it's a massive positive in all respects other than the fact that we invaded someone - which we will need to do at some point, or be taken over ourselves.
 
[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)

I like these options, what can I say?

~this land is our land~
 
Personally, I really don't like the "stay home" option, since it means that we aren't doing anything to try and solve the problem, and are instead left praying that the powers that be will just, stop trying to kill us? It just seems like a poor message to pass down to following generations: when bad shit happens, just wait it out. ... Ok, so it isn't the worst message, but it's still inaction! pah.
 
[X] Stay home
[X] None!
[X] Help as best as can (incompatible with attacking them for human sacrifices)
 
It's true that studies show that believers have an easier time divorcing emotions from logic. On the other hand, they can be completely illogical when it comes to their religion. And as other people have said, religion is not the only way forward.

Yes, you've said it 4 or 5 times, and I've generally agreed. This was about why we should send a group of people to another village, not why we should(n't) find religion internally. Obv.

Soilant Green is a completely different affair, as I assume you know. That's cannibalism and unwilling death, not knowing self-sacrifice to propitiate the spirits on the behalf of the relatives you're dying for. Please explain how this conflicts with the particular variety you are aiming for, i.e. a social-class fluid meritocratic oligarchy/republic.

We'd lose rations if the warriors failed but probably only slightly more rations than they'd have received anyways, i.e. enough to help them stay strong, which would be outweighed over the long term by the amount of rations that they do not consume. And if they win, it's a massive positive in all respects other than the fact that we invaded someone - which we will need to do at some point, or be taken over ourselves.
Because the opportunity allows us to take religion and possibly give it a very powerful platform in the tribe (should the pilgrimage lead shortly into the famine ending).

Internal voluntary sacrifice sets an very extreme precedent for the degree of response we give to dangers or threats, and devalues individual human life in favor of the collective. That way lies repression of individual expression to prevent people from gaining apparent value in the eyes of others. Individual expression is important to develop the arts and philosophy. When you crush individual expression under dogma, you get the stagnation of the medieval era.

We'd also have no warriors, and the most food in many miles. Consider how great an idea that is when raiders arrive.
Personally, I really don't like the "stay home" option, since it means that we aren't doing anything to try and solve the problem, and are instead left praying that the powers that be will just, stop trying to kill us? It just seems like a poor message to pass down to following generations: when bad shit happens, just wait it out. ... Ok, so it isn't the worst message, but it's still inaction! pah.
I, too, am freakishly upset that I can't do an expedition, but I just can't justify an additional cost in food when my stronger convictions of charity/unity in hard times and intrinsic human value are also on the line.
 
Back
Top