I mean, sure, okay, but immigrants still bring strife and unrest and disease with them, and that hurts us - especially when we have our hands entirely full with other stuff. If you remove the abstraction of the numbers, the fact is that we don't want the problems that refugees bring while our polity is already engaged in multiple wars, in need of massive internal reform, and struggling with cultural disunity.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Changing city to yes, we have the room. We can integrate it later. Also changing HK to tribute, as good as the land would be better to end the war now.
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
Changing city to yes, we have the room. We can integrate it later. Also changing HK to tribute, as good as the land would be better to end the war now.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Eh, stability,legitimacy and religious authority are still a bit squishy too.
- Location
- Austria
Thing is, there is a narrative benefit to the refugees: habit of generosity. It is not a number, but it played a part in how our society is, for example, more accepting of female rulers or non-orthodox genders in priesthood and so on and so forth.
Xenophilia and pluralism are strong habits, but they need cultivation.
Or, if you mean immediate narrative benefits and do not care all that much about long-term ones (which is a position I can respect with the ongoing crisis: you have to survive to enjoy long-term benefits and all), well, bragging rights about our climate.
I semi-suspect that telling people "Hey, our climate is stable, git gud, farming-scrubs" is likely to give us more ammo in arguing with other faiths because this is a freaking miracle of ecology.
Granted, it comes with having even more people to argue against, but still - being known as generous people (remeber, the only thing Swampers and other Lowlanders far enough know about us is us burning down Xohyr - they must think we are murderous horde of semi-nomads or something) probably would do narrative wonders to our civ, maybe even making wars less likely due to family contacts and so on. ALso, knowledge of situtation in foreign lands - AN has mentioned we'd get Swamp People refugess, so that's a source of info on them and...heh.
And Swamp People refugees give a shot at stealing their techniques of farming at this weather - they were noted as outright prospering due to climate change.
The more refugees we take, the better are our chances to get yet another farming tech, tailor-made for this shit going on, maybe even rice (dunno what grows in the swamps)?
So there: both long-term benefits and short-term ones. Good enough?
We do want benefits they bring though. Listed above: both long- and short-term ones.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Winning vote atm:
Religion-
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
Lowlands-
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
Re/action-
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
Highlands:
[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
City:
[] [City] No
Red Banners:
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
Refugees:
Minimal
Result is basically that the Lowlands are going to keep sacrificing people and spouting war propaganda but won't have slaves but will need more labor for black soil but will also have a massive reduction in labor due to mills helping with multiple things. We'll be hammering the HK with the RB at the same time as we demand tribute. Sounds like a bit of an overreaction, but guarantees completion. Festival counters the minimal potential stability loss from the lowland + refugee combo. I.e., we'll be gaining 1 stability and lose an expected 1 stability, so we stay at 1.
Personally, I feel this is mostly just treading water other than freeing us up from the war. The main change I'd prefer is that we crush the lowland priests. It will reduce cultural differentiation and ease future integration. More refugees and a harsher penalty to the HK would be nice, but I can understand why these are undesirable in the face of a probable integration + palace combo next turn.
Religion-
[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
Lowlands-
[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
Re/action-
[] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
Highlands:
[] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
City:
[] [City] No
Red Banners:
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
Refugees:
Minimal
Result is basically that the Lowlands are going to keep sacrificing people and spouting war propaganda but won't have slaves but will need more labor for black soil but will also have a massive reduction in labor due to mills helping with multiple things. We'll be hammering the HK with the RB at the same time as we demand tribute. Sounds like a bit of an overreaction, but guarantees completion. Festival counters the minimal potential stability loss from the lowland + refugee combo. I.e., we'll be gaining 1 stability and lose an expected 1 stability, so we stay at 1.
Personally, I feel this is mostly just treading water other than freeing us up from the war. The main change I'd prefer is that we crush the lowland priests. It will reduce cultural differentiation and ease future integration. More refugees and a harsher penalty to the HK would be nice, but I can understand why these are undesirable in the face of a probable integration + palace combo next turn.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I definitely do mean short-term ones, cause conservative-in-crisis. The religious one is a double edged sword (as you observed) because it both reinforces our position while bringing in a bigger challenge.
The best case you made here was the diplomacy one, but... we know that usually our neighbors hate us for taking their Econ. I don't think it would work.
- Location
- United States
Eh, I mean, here is what I think they broadly represent.
Stability: How happy people are with your nation, loss causes corruption as people swoop in to make profit as public trust falters.
Raised by doing actions to reassure the people that the government has their best interests in mind: Restore Justice, Restore Order, Annual Festival, Proclaim Glory.
Legitimacy: The Right to Rule of the King, lowering it increases corruption and likely makes it easier for others to attempt to seize the kingship (Don't know most of the negatives since we never let it get too low)
Raised by showing the Glory of the King and reminding the people why the King deserves their position: Proclaim Glory
Religious Authority: How influential your religion and priests are, enforces cultural traditions and common behavior, lowering reduces the power of the priests.
Raised by agreeing with the priests, increasing centers of religion(temples), possibly by proselytizing (lowland minors), haven't done much with it yet.
Romv
A Memory of TREES
[X] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
Not sacrificing people should fall under following the spirit of the law.
Not that it has any hope of winning, but are you trying to fracture us?
- Location
- Canada
[X] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
Last edited:
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Right, so far so good. But we don't know how (say) a stability drop due to flooding compares to a stability drop due to lack of confidence in government. We don't even know what italic Religious authority means, and have only base speculation on what raising it significantly would do. And so on.
We understand the details about Econ or Martial. Not really Stability.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
as stated, self- and other-sacrifice is disguised a criminal punishment
you're still solving the symptom but not the cause, anyways
- Location
- US
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
Yes. IMO though, eliminating slavery is a significant step in reforming their culture. AN said we would have future options to handle the issues we're not handling now, so I'd suggest we take it easy and buy time for now.
The update is called all at once...
[✗] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[✗] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[✗] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[✗] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[✗] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)
[✗] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I guess slavery is more problematic
Yes, and things disguised as other things is what "Force them to follow the spirit of the law" is cracking down on.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
you're still solving the symptom but not the cause, anyways
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
- Location
- Trumpistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I literally just said we didn't have the stability slider.Do you honestly mean to say we would've gotten Share the Circle with Stability slider?
We had most of the others, however.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
While it is a good ideal for everyone to be self-sufficient and requires no outside protection, it simply isn't feasible.
We are all looking for a leader, but i don't know those who found it or those who haven't is more tragic.
- Location
- Hell
That's a sudden swing to free city. I cannot say I agree with it.
See? I can make vague foreboding sentences as well!
Centralization is mankinds only salvation from the chaos of the edges.
See? I can make vague foreboding sentences as well!
Romv
A Memory of TREES
No and yes.
If people can vote for five different options to fiddle with the voting system, I can vote for stuff that I want but won't win anyway.