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Was that not when our normal martial was red though?
Remember the number in the brackets represent called in militia, not professional or even seasonal warriors. I don't know if they count towards the normal martial limit.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
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Remember the number in the brackets represent called in militia, not professional or even seasonal warriors. I don't know if they count towards the normal martial limit.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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It's a bit foggy but what I remember is that Red base Martial plus negative stab is definitely going to trigger the malus. I think the Village Fiasco happened when we were at yellow base and Red boosted Martial, but I cannot quite remember.
PyroTechno
The Procrastination Pokemon
[X] Forge a new path of war
Voting for what I want rather than what will obviously win.
PyroTechno has been awarded honorary membership in the Libertarian Party!
Voting for what I want rather than what will obviously win.
PyroTechno has been awarded honorary membership in the Libertarian Party!
Correct. Boosted value is what matters for pretty much everything.
Could send some dudes to the Trade Post maybe. Those guys don't have a lot of Martial.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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[X] Forge a new path of war
Approval Voting!
Edit: yeah science is in the lead enough i'm just switching fully to war, since i dont need to worry much about diplo beating science.
Edit: yeah science is in the lead enough i'm just switching fully to war, since i dont need to worry much about diplo beating science.
Like you said later, probably stole a couple settlements to add to southshore
I think we got the diplo +4 this turn, but instead of the usual overflow we immediately went Diplo 16 -> Diplo 4 + Wealth 12
I mean, technically the best horses have to manage a teenage (young adult at this point?) girl, wearing heavy iron scale armor, and from teh sounds of it also iron horse armor? Which sounds like it would be an equal load to a young adult male warrior if you didn't have the iron armor on either of them? I think? But yeah, your general point that we won'tbe getting actual war cavalry for a while stands.
I think the point was that the king isn't elected by popular vote, they're electedby the Council. In turn, as far as we can tell, the council is a mix of elected by settlement chiefs (province chiefs), elected from amongst the priests (head priest/shaman), and appointed by the king (farming/admin/etc chiefs). Settlement chiefs seem to be elected by clan heads, while the lower level X-chiefs are probably a mix of "appointed by province chiefs" and "voted in by the artisans of their field in valleyhome"? So there's not exactly much direct diplomacy, no.
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BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
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The invention of horseback riding surprised me greatly and pushed my estimate of when we will get actual war cavalry way closer.
I expect we will see light infantry warriors, armored in quilted cloth with a small shield and wielding short spears or other weapon more appropriate for charging, or some equivalent unit in the next four updates.
Anything shorter I would call a stretch because of the size issue that has been brought up.
Once we invent Light Cavalry, bricks will be shat.
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Aren't archer's more likely, given that we have a strong archery tradition?
BungieONI
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Nope. Well, kinda nope.
The Ymaryn are very archery focused, but Horse Archery is a bit of a different beast from Chariot Archery, and is much more difficult if I remember rightly. It also requires special types of horse bows to be really scary.
Personally I think what will happen is we have mounted infantry and then we will quickly advance into horse archery. Specifically I mean that we would advance quicker into horse archers than we would if we were not so archery focused.
I rate horse archers... *does some quick counting*... six to eight updates away.
E: all told somewhere between 70 and 80 years from right now. I think. It would be much longer for any culture not as ranged focused.
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Abby Normal
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Our Best of the Best trait should also help with things; Chariot Archers are already considered the best of the best, and if there's a new competing military discipline thats even more manly to our people, and even more difficult? I expect a lot of the chariot archers to try and get in on this new "horse riding" thing as soon as we start getting any non-couriers doing so.
Also i forgot to actually respond to this in my last post because i just woke up, so... I'll note that this wouldn't just be about (presumably) getting us "a single hero king"; it would also 1. give us a "free" hero led war mission on a weakened enemy, that might be enough to break them up again and 2. most importantly to me, it would give us a chance to fight back at entrenched gender norms when our warrior queen-to-be and her new group of female couriers (and maybe if we're lucky the older couriers could transition to (very) light cavalry?) lead our people to victory. This whole set of votes sounds like we rolled really well and are getting a set of awesome things we can do, just with different drawbacks, whether "increases hereditary norms" or "is trying for a diplomarriage with all the pros and cons attached" or "nomads are hard to predict..." or "mystery option!" or whatnot.
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None really, but what gains have been made have been rolled into Hatriver.
Uhhhh... Farvid the Elder and Tormid the Quick.
Econ->Wealth->Diplo->Art->Mysticism
One slight difference is that Art->Wealth first
It's basically the same as Honour of Elites, just a bit broader now.
BungieONI
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Hah. I keep doing stuff like that and forgetting things. Whoopsies.
So in the name of enlightening discussion how long do you think it will take to get horse archers, in update count?
I'm rating each update as 10 years, i.e it will take ten years between this last update and the next one, and the one after will be another ten etc because AN has said time between mid turns is roughly 20 years.
I figure it will take about 6 updates and so 60 years (this coming main turn -> mid turn -> main turn(we get light cavalry) -> mid turn -> main turn -> mid turn(we start to get horse archers 30 years after we get light cavalry)
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Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
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Has the use of currency spread beyond Valleyhome, or even just beyond "get paid your daily rations in coin, drop coin off at central stores for rations" by now?
So Art goes to Wealth, then Mysticism? Or is it Art -> Wealth -> Diplomacy -> Mysticism?
Gah. This whole thing is confusing. The main point is that earlier, you had a sort of overflow transitivity; if X overflow to Y and Y overflows to Z, but Y is full, then X overflows to Z. Do we not have that any more?
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
We've already got the composite bows that help with draw strength while keeping the bows short, the thing that really needs to develop is saddles and stirrups. If we get focused development on that, then...
[X] Forge a new path of war
BungieONI
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We do still have it. Wouldn't make sense to get rid of it.
Art went Art -> Myst -> Old!Diplo
Now I think it goes:
Art -> Wealth -> Mysticism -> New!Diplo
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How long will it take to breed the horses?
Abby Normal
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I think it'll depend a lot on this vote; if we take the war path, then
1. we'll have another "hero leads fight with new development in mind!" that should help spread at least the courier system
2. We'll hopefully push back on gender roles, at least in war, and from what others have said, it's a hell of a lot easier with the horses we have now to use teenage or young adult women for riders...meaning that if we can get women a solid role in fighting, with a female hero in charge of things, we might get light cavalry sooner by way of an elite female unit.
3. Even if we don't get as lucky as 3 hopes, then i predict having expanding numbers of female couriers at all is likely to spur (pun not originally intended but now that i've noticed it it sure as hell is
) our hotheaded elite male warriors into trying to outdo these upstart young women outshining them, which would in turn increase development of male horseback riding.
BungieONI
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Not long at all really, we've really already done that which is why we are considering this at all. The fine tuning and increases in size and stamina are what are needed now and that's a big part of the time required along with specialized equipment.
Hmm, K. How much would it cut off? Cut it in half? Reduce it by a third?I think it'll depend a lot on this vote; if we take the war path, then
1. we'll have another "hero leads fight with new development in mind!" that should help spread at least the courier system
2. We'll hopefully push back on gender roles, at least in war, and from what others have said, it's a hell of a lot easier with the horses we have now to use teenage or young adult women for riders...meaning that if we can get women a solid role in fighting, with a female hero in charge of things, we might get light cavalry sooner by way of an elite female unit.
3. Even if we don't get as lucky as 3 hopes, then i predict having expanding numbers of female couriers at all is likely to spur (pun not originally intended but now that i've noticed it it sure as hell is
I'd say reduce by a third.
Funnily enough with this course of advancement we are edging back to more Pure Nomad Tactics where everyone who can fight should. Cool! This amuses me!
Abby Normal
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Ah, yes, that makes sense now
Not just weight. Width as well. Currently it's basically teen girls wearing maybe 3-5 kg of iron riding on a blanket. An adult male warrior(noting greater height and muscle density) is going to weigh something like 20% more naked.
Not sure if the horses actually have barding yet, since that's REALLY heavy if you want the horse to protect more than a bit on the vitals.
And then of course, you need to train horses not to panic at blood.
Limited direct diplomacy yes, though given the nature of the structure, the opinions of lower level powers are quite significant in a spoiler effect if there's no strong rival candidate.
Ah yeah, you'd actually have to partially reverse the archery developments to have bows which shoot well from the limited space of horseback, then without stirrups...it's a hyper elite endeavor to hit ANYTHING at all while bouncing up and down and moving fast enough to generate a breeze.
Also some serious testicular fortitude to fight from horseback until you have the saddle. Quite distracting.
Depends on which one you're pushing against. As long as she gets to Kingship by means of achievement, gender norms will take pushback(though the messengers are useful enough that they'd be getting SOME pushback just to have the horse messenger units at all). But the militarization of our culture over time is something I'd strongly like to avoid, especially reinforcing the already easy to bolster precedent of making successful generals king.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Not true! The Ymaryn use composite bows, which already avoid the size issue for high draw-strength bows.
BungieONI
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And this makes all female horse archers a improvement and a likelyhood. No testicles to paste.
Though the breasticles might get in the way. Dunno!
Longer than you'd think. We've been breeding for better horses in general, but theres a reason that quality warhorses were considered a strategic good protected by their countries for a long time. Horses took over a thousand years of highly motivated directed breeding to go from auxillaries used for scouting and messengers in the Greek era to the heavy armored dude on heavy armored horse cataphracts of Byzantium(and in turn those heavy warhorses were kind of drama queens for maintenance in terms of food demands and disease vulnerability, since the faster you push a breeding program the more inbreeding flaws you're going to have to eat)
BungieONI
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What's your estimate on getting light cavalry and then horse archers in number of updates?