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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
Necratoid said:
Side Effects include:
-Generations of pointless wars.
-Population that changes hands so many times they just give tribute taxes to whoever shows up consistently.
-Being cut off from trading with some parties on a regular basis.
-Having most of your actions tied up in holding the line.
-Thinking invading the lowlands is a grand idea.
-Hanging out in the international plague spawning chamber.
-Lack of being surrounded by trees.
-Making it easier for idiots to attack you.
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For all this talk about the downsides if we do take the lowlands there is a very small amount discussion about what will happen if we ignore the lowlands and it's people unites against us.
 
Hangwind said:
Ultimately, you're killing your own point, because even in the most aggressive (and wrong) possible way of interpreting the Trill actions, they'd be doing exactly what we do! You literally said that we act as the store that both sides sell to! We certainly don't let trade caravans waltz through our territory without getting our due!
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We don't need to. They come to us specifically because we have goods that what we want. We also have housing, water, entertainment, prostitutes, etc.
 
DocMatoi said:
I distinctly remember an saying that traders from xoh and hk routinely ignore each other in our territory
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Which proves them wrong, because they were arguing that we just let caravans through our territory so that warring nations can trade with each other!
McLuvin said:
The Xoh have stuff the Highlanders want, the Highlanders alphabet stuff the Xoh want, they can't go through the western route directly because that's choked up in war. So the only safe route is through us.
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McLuvin said:
Also that's why traders would use our territory, it's safe and we don't tell foreigners what to do, they could walk through and trade in peace
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drake_azathoth said:
Um, no. "Where did you get that? Is it Highland Kingdom make?" "Yeah, but I bought it from a Ymaryn." "Damn Ymaryn! They'll trade with anyone!" "I know right, those guys are such jerks." "Well, if you've got it, how much?"

Protip: Trader has not ever met a Ymaryn.
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They were literally arguing that warring nations were trading with each other directly! And if they're using us as the middleman, guess what?

That's the bloody Trill!
 
Threatening or going to war to break monopolies is a reality of the ancient world. One of the things that's gotten us the peace we generally have today is noone enforcing monopolies, but instead charging reasonable usage fees.

And, judging by the update, I believe they don't allow any trade goods to pass through their canal. If so, war against them may be necessary at some point. That's just reality.
 
Reader of all said:
For all this talk about the downsides if we do take the lowlands there is a very small amount discussion about what will happen if we ignore the lowlands and it's people unites against us.
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There's been quite a lot of it. Just last update we talked about sending HK iron weapons to keep that from happening.
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

Voting before it closes while i'm reading.

edit: also, @Academia Nut Does the Aqueduct net us +1 art and mysticism once completed?
 
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pblur said:
There's been quite a lot of it. Just last update we talked about sending HK iron weapons to keep that from happening.
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But not as much as the fears of stepping foot in the lowlands oh dear we should definitely try to seige a city hundreds of KM away by boat but god forbid we take even a bit of the lowlands no siree when we have much more experience in land battles than naval ones, and have better archers, and have better chariots, and are able to send our men on irregular attack routs through rivers, and ave iron weapons.
 
pblur said:
Threatening or going to war to break monopolies is a reality of the ancient world. One of the things that's gotten us the peace we generally have today is noone enforcing monopolies, but instead charging reasonable usage fees.

And, judging by the update, I believe they don't allow any trade goods to pass through their canal. If so, war against them may be necessary at some point. That's just reality.
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Academia Nut said:
their ships ensuring that none could pass between without trading with them.
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Again. They don't stop people from going through, they demand a tax.
McLuvin said:
Also see the quote above, the update hinting heavily that they aren't letting us pass. This is basically them using force to make people trade where they want them to, not just take a tax
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Then prove it. Because I keep giving proof of how things work, both in the update and in the real world. You just keep on rambling with jack all to back up your points beyond naked greed!
McLuvin said:
Turkey controls both sides of the straight as is their right with major settlements on each side and major territory on each side.

However these guys are one city state on one side doing it. It's not Not!Turkey, it's a single city state of thugs
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The entire area is their sphere of influence! That's how cities get started! And honestly, you have no proof that they don't sit on both sides of the channel.
 
Frankly I feel you are making a mountain out of a molehill @McLuvin.

They are tolling people to pass. Oh well, who cares? We did not even have trade routes that way until now and our boats do not even support going the distance. If it was realy so heinous, do you really not think one of their neighbors would have already tried something?

They are being jerks. Again, who cares? We are surrounded by jerks. Why direct that anger at them and not any of ther others we could reaaonably attack, such as the Metal Workers or the Hatathyn Remnants.

Then there is the fact that we still need to improve infrastructure, improve sciences, build megaprojects, and fight off our neighbors.

We have too much to do to deal with something that is frankly none of our concern.
 
So, Trelli.

They have speedy boats. No mention of size, so it would be similar to ours. Next on the proto-longboat agenda is probably speed+portability.

What this means is that we could launch surprise attack on land using rivers, if there are any. Their boats will probably be faster than ours, though.

If we want to match them, we either have to make our boats bigger, or faster. We could probably outproduce them in term of ships, since they are presumably only a city-state. Even if they do try to match us in production rate, they will probably run out of forests, precipitating in an ecological disaster.
 
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Hangwind said:
Again. They don't stop people from going through, they demand a tax.

Then prove it. Because I keep giving proof of how things work, both in the update and in the real world. You just keep on rambling with jack all to back up your points beyond naked greed!

The entire area is their sphere of influence! That's how cities get started! And honestly, you have no proof that they don't sit on both sides of the channel.
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I'm not going to argue with you. You're running way too hot right now; maybe later.

I just read that line and the following one to mean something closer to an embargo than a toll.
 
Reader of all said:
But not as much as the fears of stepping foot in the lowlands oh dear we should definitely try to seige a city hundreds of KM away by boat but god forbid we take even a bit of the lowlands no siree when we have much more experience in land battles than naval ones, and have better archers, and have better chariots, and are able to send our men on irregular attack routs through rivers, and ave iron weapons.
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If we can get horseback riding to actual use, make the NE march, don't have our enemies pick up iron*, and don't have anything super pressing at the time, then i would like to take the next chance to provoke the Xoh or maybe even outright attack; If we actually manage to have that setup, where we have cavalry (though from what people have said, probably not horse archers or heavy cav yet, "just" light cavalry), elite chariot archers, abundant scouts, proto-long boats, widespread iron weapons vs minimum bronze weapons, at least a little of the infantry gap caught up on with close formation, and a march supporting us, then i think we could stomp face.

*When i was looking up a little bit about the history of bronze and iron, i found 1. that it sounds like we're actually closer to major improvements than i'd thought, we should study metal with this mysticism hero next turn if possible, and 2. that it sounds like the main thing fueling the transition to iron age was a disruption in tin supplies leading to previously bronze age civs exploring iron more...which means that i'm worried the Xoh might figure out iron working sooner rather than later. Through us they know that its possible, and they were mentioned in this update as being short on tin and thus bronze, and they've almost certainly got good mysticism score and values, plus they have easy stability gain to get back into a golden age...
 
McLuvin said:
The Lowlands are no concern of ours,
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McLuvin stating that is like saying Germany is no concern to Russia in the 1930/40's it is out right BS and you know it.
As for a way to handle the Trelli without going to war would be to scare them into summiting the water way aka get big badass bouts/ships,
Rather much how like America forced open Japan with gunboats in 1853.
 
pblur said:
I'm not going to argue with you. You're running way too hot right now; maybe later.

I just read that line and the following one to mean something closer to an embargo than a toll.
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I want literally anybody arguing with me to provide proof of their claims! I've actually backed up my statements, and all I get in return is "I think".
:Citation Needed:
Prove something. Hell, tell me how you can read "Don't let boats though unless" as "Don't let boats through at all"! Seriously, I would be fascinated to find the logic there!
 
Candesce said:
Eeh.

I think we might want two types of boats - size/portability for river trade and warfare, and size/speed for sea trade and warfare.

Trying to make one boat do both things...
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A longship is a master of all trade, great for exploration, raid, and trade. But you're right, we should have something like trireme for controlling the Med and the Black Sea, if only we don't want our ships to get rammed by them.
 
Hangwind said:
I want literally anybody arguing with me to provide proof of their claims! I've actually backed up my statements, and all I get in return is "I think".
:Citation Needed:
Prove something. Hell, tell me how you can read "Don't let boats though unless" as "Don't let boats through at all"! Seriously, I would be fascinated to find the logic there!
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Academia Nut said:
They sat upon what they claimed was the Gateway of the Two Seas, their ships ensuring that none could pass between without trading with them.
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Academia Nut said:
and the boats that Trelli had tended to be sleek looking things, meant to chase down interlopers that tried to defy their demands
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So, the Trelli only let people through if they give up some goods for the toll and chase down anyone who's new/doesn't want to pay. It isn't specified what they do with them, but it's likely that they're given the option of paying up or being refused passage.
 
Oooh coolio! I kinda like her! Trippy as balls obviously! But she is going for Tailings and Tailings = path to sulfur and path to sulfur = path to the Boom Booms.

Also. Whheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Horsies!

[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome
[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)
[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)
[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)

I wonder what our new subordinate is supposed to be?
 
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