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Paths of Civilization

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drake_azathoth said:
Well, yes. But sooner or later if it hasn't already happened a sporty young woman will try to do it to impress a guy or girl as well. She may or may not be successful, and may or may not take flack for it, but she'll probably discover it's fun.


...And no, we can totally beat the Lowlands. Wouldn't surprise me if we kick the crap out of them in our next war. In all honesty, while their infantry makes me sort-of interested there's a reason heavy cavalry was mistakenly regarded as 'invincible' for centuries. And volley fire archery is just nasty even if you've got a shield. Once we've taken part of the Lowlands we won't need to trade it back and forth like the Xoh and HK do because we'll actually be building up and fortifying the interior- the reason the Lowlands are a sandtrap is nobody had a big enough population to settle it and fortify it. The HK were good at forts, but had fairly low numbers. We're numerous enough at this point and really good at colonizing and fortifying land- the nomads and Stallion Tribe area are basically hard difficulty to the Lowlands normal or easy mode and we've kept the territory we've taken.

The Trelli will be a slog if we try to conquer them- they're undoubtably incredibly rich and undoubtably have ways to translate that wealth into military power. Beating them probably requires we stop their trade route, as our Martial hero suggested, to stop the flow of wealth. To be honest, while it's a strategic enough position I'm all for subordinating them, it's probably a distant future goal and diplo-annexing may be far more practical.
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To be fair, we won't have heavy cavalry for quite a while.
 
[X] [Curr] Yes, in Valleyhome

[X] [Horse] Openly allow but regulate it (-1 Religious Authority, potential stability loss)

[X] [Infra] Build aqueduct in Sacred Forest (-4 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion, increased True City threshold)

[X] [Hero] Provide sponsorship (Main Study Tailings under Mystic Hero, possible Legitimacy loss, possible Religious Authority loss)
 
McLuvin said:
The Xoh have stuff the Highlanders want, the Highlanders alphabet stuff the Xoh want, they can't go through the western route directly because that's choked up in war. So the only safe route is through us.
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:jackiechan:
What? THEY ARE AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER. THAT KILLS TRADE. A TRADER THAT TRIED WOULD BE KILLED.
 
Reader of all said:
I am against this right now the lowlands are about to boil over and the chance for us to finally take it is almost at hand
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I think multiple polities thought that at some point, and look where they stand now. I'm not going to dismiss a plan at conquering the lowlands out of hand, but I think it would have to pass very stringent test or rigor first.

drake_azathoth said:
What's very likely is that once it's 'official' and people can't really deny the legitimacy of the currency, someone from outside Valleyhome where they mine silver will try to take advantage by 'counterfeiting', which could various problems. It's probably down to a roll as to whether we take a stability hit, as opposed to the guaranteed stability hit for universal implementation, which could outright fail.
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The nice thing about using bullion currency is that duplicating the coins and peddling them to us doesn't actually hurt us, since the value of the coin is tied to the value of the metal-content of the coin.

The tricky part is when someone starts clipping coins or making coins which are actually made of e.g. led with a silver coating instead of silver, and so on. That is where we start running into trouble.
 
McLuvin said:
Ands it's become three again with the Thunder Speaker rebellion
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Please they will fall they are only a city facing an empire at most they will bloody the Xoh a bit but we will see even greater punishments heaped upon them than last time to make sure they stay down I would not be surprised if the Xoh decided to sacrifice every first born Thunder Speaker as to show what would happen to all who oppose them.
 
Hangwind said:
:jackiechan:
What? THEY ARE AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER. THAT KILLS TRADE. A TRADER THAT TRIED WOULD BE KILLED.
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Oh like a Highlander Noble wouldn't want access to the fine pottery the Xoh dominate and a Xoh wouldn't want access to Highlander goods the same way, war or not trade still happens, they just have to do it away from the battle lines.

Don't act like a war cancels out human nature if trying to make a profit, traders will still trade and it's naive and silly to believe otherwise when there are masses of real world examples of traders still trading goods between counties during war

Also that's why traders would use our territory, it's safe and we don't tell foreigners what to do, they could walk through and trade in peace
 
Reader of all said:
Please they will fall they are only a city facing an empire at most they will bloody the Xoh a bit but we will see even greater punishments heaped upon them than last time to make sure they stay down I would not be surprised if the Xoh decided to sacrifice every first born Thunder Speaker as to show what would happen to all who oppose them.
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I've said it once, I'll say it again, I'm not repeating the Lowlanders argument this thread has had half a million times over.

At some point there's not enough Horse corpse left to beat
 
notgreat said:
Our people are all about understanding nature and then improving it. See: Step Farms, Managed Forests, Black Soil, etc.
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I agree with you about wanting to understand and improve nature, but all those examples you provided were plants. We can't visibly see what plants are feeling in any way that humans can understand, but unlike plants, we can tell what horses are feeling to some extent.

This situation started because people decided to purposely startle them by jumping onto their backs for kicks and giggles. And yes, eventually getting horseback riding out of it would be understanding nature and then improving it, by human standards. If we regulate the practice there's potential for less startling methods to be put in place for dealing with the horses, but it still looks like we aren't really taking the animals' feelings in much consideration at first glance, and that makes me a bit uneasy.
 
Hey guys, I know shaman-pacifying aqueducts are great, but did nobody notice that little option that went
[X] [Infra] More foot soldiers (-2 Econ, +3 Martial, potential additional effects)
the turn after we figured out that formation fighting with spears and shields is a good thing?

Are we maxed out on martial already or can we bulk that up a little more?
Lilithium said:
i saw that as a kind of innuendo as well tbh

"Talk mysticism to me."
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"I am the heavens and you are the earth," said the shaman. "Let us see if terrestrial matters and stars align."
 
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drake_azathoth said:
Bob: "Monologue after it's finished. For now, get back to digging."
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Frank: *grumbles* "Its salt water... That is rather hard to farm with... fourteenth rant today."
Reader of all said:
I have known about you guy's phobia for the lowlands for a long time now and quite frankly now more than ever should we try to finally take territory haven't you noticed that the more time has passed the more united the lowlands became? first there were three then it became four now it is only two, you seem to think we can just shut ourselves away from our closest neighbors and assume that even if they do unite we can fight them of when AN clearly stated that in over all infantry they are better than us
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Its meat grinder that taking over results in moving you towards hostile/expansionist powers.

Also, they are both getting to the point of over reaching their administrative reach.
 
drake_azathoth said:
Um, no. "Where did you get that? Is it Highland Kingdom make?" "Yeah, but I bought it from a Ymaryn." "Damn Ymaryn! They'll trade with anyone!" "I know right, those guys are such jerks." "Well, if you've got it, how much?"

Protip: Trader has not ever met a Ymaryn.
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McLuvin said:
Oh like a Highlander Noble wouldn't want access to the fine pottery the Xoh dominate and a Xoh wouldn't want access to Highlander goods the same way, war or not trade still happens, they just have to do it away from the battle lines.

Don't act like a war cancels out human nature if trying to make a profit, traders will still trade and it's naive and silly to believe otherwise when there are masses of real world examples of traders still trading goods between counties during war

Also that's why traders would use our territory, it's safe and we don't tell foreigners what to do, they could walk through and trade in peace
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That isn't how this works. At all. Trade, at this point in history, is largely a strategic decision, and usually controlled by the king or high nobles. The trading class doesn't rise for millennia yet. But, let's end this argument.

@Academia Nut How does trade work in our area? Do we let traders through our borders freely? Are the Highlanders still trading with the Xoh?
 
Hangwind said:
That isn't how this works. At all. Trade, at this point in history, is largely a strategic decision, and usually controlled by the king or high nobles. The trading class doesn't rise for millennia yet. But, let's end this argument.

@Academia Nut How does trade work in our area? Do we let traders through our borders freely? Are the Highlanders still trading with the Xoh?
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So we'd let immigrants come and go freely but force merchants to do what we wanted?

Yeah sure, let's ask Academia Nut mate.
 
Necratoid said:
Its meat grinder that taking over results in moving you towards hostile/expansionist powers.

Also, they are both getting to the point of over reaching their administrative reach.
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Would you rather those hostile powers have the full benefits of the lowlands to draw upon before attacking us? We are on a ticking clock the more time is passing the more united the lowlands will become there will be a civ that will get the admin techs needed to administer the lowlands I would rather that civ be us than another.
 
McLuvin said:
So we'd let immigrants come and go freely but force merchants to do what we wanted?

Yeah sure, let's ask Academia Nut mate.
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We don't let them go! Literally the only time we've had someone try to leave, we only let them go when they established a periphery state entirely dedicated to us!
 
I come back to like 30+ pages....skip to the end because I just woke up and wasn't in the mood to read it all.

*sees* talks about yellow rocks and a completely new vote occurring*

...so, for some reason I didn't get a notification in my email of the new update. :mad: All well...I guess i'll start reading now.
 
Hangwind said:
??? That's literally what they're doing, and what I said though?
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No they're forcing people to trade in their area, letting them amass more goods and reputation because of it and not letting anyone sail past thier city, forcing them to trade where they want so they can profit.

Basically forcing people to use them as middlemen via a strong navy and good geographical position
 
Sugnez said:
This situation started because people decided to purposely startle them by jumping onto their backs for kicks and giggles. And yes, eventually getting horseback riding out of it would be understanding nature and then improving it, by human standards. If we regulate the practice there's potential for less startling methods to be put in place for dealing with the horses, but it still looks like we aren't really taking the animals' feelings in much consideration at first glance, and that makes me a bit uneasy.
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Oh my god much wow. Here's a thing: horses don't really like pulling carts either. And most modern horses would still prefer people not sit on them, they just tolerate it for apples and being let out to run. We still ride them, because they don't get a full say.

The fact we actually have priests and such that are CONCERNED about the HORSE'S feelings to begin with to the point they might punish them for doing stuff to the horses they basically own is kind of mind-boggling. This is the kind of thing that would make most nineteenth century civilizations give you the side-glance and start discreetly walking off to call the men with the fancy jackets that don't open easily because womanish sentiment has obviously overheated your brain.

It is a fact that a horse must work for his apples, as a man must for his bread, and some men and horses must undergo some unpleasantness to serve the state. Those who do so shall be rewarded. Maybe some day we will give our horses the vote.
 
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Hangwind said:
We don't let them go! Literally the only time we've had someone try to leave, we only let them go when they established a periphery state entirely dedicated to us!
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Then where are the accounts of us stopping them????
All we've ever seen is us letting people go where they wish in our civ, if they want to live in the city they can, if they decide to move province they can, there has never been any mention of restrictions in movement beyond reallocation of farmers
 
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Sugnez said:
I agree with you about wanting to understand and improve nature, but all those examples you provided were plants. We can't visibly see what plants are feeling in any way that humans can understand, but unlike plants, we can tell what horses are feeling to some extent.

This situation started because people decided to purposely startle them by jumping onto their backs for kicks and giggles. And yes, eventually getting horseback riding out of it would be understanding nature and then improving it, by human standards. If we regulate the practice there's potential for less startling methods to be put in place for dealing with the horses, but it still looks like we aren't really taking the animals' feelings in much consideration at first glance, and that makes me a bit uneasy.
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Those were just the first ones that I thought up of, look at our Sacred Warding which involves massive herd management or the White Calf we bred with all the others. Or how we use chariots where the horses have plenty of chances of dying there too.

And yeah, it makes people uneasy. That's why there's the chance of losing stability.
 
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