Paths of Civilization

[ctulhuslp]

Why should we be using the Policy Megaproject?

Balanced is in many ways a superior Policy to be on, and anything we lose in speed to not having Policy support we gain in starting earlier.

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At the very least for +1 Action from Symphony; it's a valid enough reason on its own, IMO.

Also, because having Library built so soon after the cultural shift from (hopefully) evolving the Observance is cool and shiny; and we can, if necessary, chain into PttS or the Palace (which probably will boost Centralisation and give administrative bonuses, for that matter) after that.

I mean, double Main Trails would be cool too, so chaining is optional, but Symphony means that we basically get +1 action from using it.

 

[notgreat]

Province actions don't count or me, they are somewhat inferior compared to our main actions.

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There has been absolutely no indication of this whatsoever throughout the entire quest. Every time we ask to confirm various specifics we get told that they are treated as equivalent to our actions except that we don't control them and by default they're targeted by whichever province does it.

The legacy was from our very first single-turn megaproject. The second one gave nothing special.

And we already have a shitload of roads, the only ones with more was the Western Confederacy (because Pioneering Spirit meant that they needed them a ton just to keep Centralization from getting too negative and they didn't have Enforce Authority- which they then immediately used as soon as they got it in the transition to HK)

At the very least for +1 Action from Symphony; it's a valid enough reason on its own, IMO.

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That's +2 action-equivalents, but also -2 action-equivalents from changing to Megaproject and then changing away afterwards. Unless we're planning on doing 2 or more megaprojects at once we should stay off of Megaproject Support. (1 action-equivalent is a Secondary)

 

[ctulhuslp]

And we already have a shitload of roads, the only ones with more was the Western Confederacy (because Pioneering Spirit meant that they needed them a ton just to keep Centralization from getting too negative and they didn't have Enforce Authority- which they then immediately used as soon as they got it in the transition to HK)

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Southshore and Eastern Hills don't really have those, or at least have shitty ones IIRC.

Western Wall definitely does not have them, and they, as ones who'll take a brunt of nomadic assault, would really really benefit from having a way to get reinforcements from us via quality roads.

 

[maximillian]

There has been absolutely no indication of this whatsoever throughout the entire quest. Every time we ask to confirm various specifics we get told that they are treated as equivalent to our actions except that we don't control them and by default they're targeted by whichever province does it.

The legacy was from our very first single-turn megaproject. The second one gave nothing special.

And we already have a shitload of roads, the only ones with more was the Western Confederacy (because Pioneering Spirit meant that they needed them a ton just to keep Centralization from getting too negative and they didn't have Enforce Authority- which they then immediately used as soon as they got it in the transition to HK)


That's +2 action-equivalents, but also -2 action-equivalents from changing to Megaproject and then changing away afterwards. Unless we're planning on doing 2 or more megaprojects at once we should stay off of Megaproject Support. (1 action-equivalent is a Secondary)

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We have dirt trails and glorified dirt trails, not roads.

 

[pblur]

That's +2 action-equivalents, but also -2 action-equivalents from changing to Megaproject and then changing away afterwards. Unless we're planning on doing 2 or more megaprojects at once we should stay off of Megaproject Support. (1 action-equivalent is a Secondary)

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It's only -2 if we're going back to balanced afterwards. That's fairly unlikely IMO.

 

[Candesce]

That's fairly unlikely IMO.

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Balanced is a good idea for several reasons:

It gets us +4 econ per turn. It lets us see what our provinces are concerned about. Because our provinces take our circumstances into account, we have to change it less often, saving actions.

Why wouldn't we be on it?

 

[Citino]

There has been absolutely no indication of this whatsoever throughout the entire quest. Every time we ask to confirm various specifics we get told that they are treated as equivalent to our actions except that we don't control them and by default they're targeted by whichever province does it.

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They were stated to not get Symphony bonuses unless we worked with them. That implies that they don't work well together. The provinces are a bunch of different factions that use their resoruces to do stuff they need or support the kingdom. But the fact that they are a bunch of factions makes it hard for them to work together.

Thus, I find it unlikely that they would benefit from doubling actions in the same way we would. Individually, their actions are just as good as our, but collectively, unless they are working with the kingdom itself, they just lack that same level of coordination.

When the King calls for a major project, he can manage a bunch of resources and harmonize them. When a Province or two wants to do a major project, they have to rely on the other provinces being willing to contribute their own resources to that, and even then there is no guiding figure that can make them work together seamlessly.

 

[pblur]

Balanced is a good idea for several reasons:

It gets us +4 econ per turn. It lets us see what our provinces are concerned about. Because our provinces take our circumstances into account, we have to change it less often, saving actions.

Why wouldn't we be on it?

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It's not a bad setting, but since we got Policy we've only been on Balanced for 2 turns IIRC. So it seems likely we'll want to leave it to work on a more pressing problem (say defensive or something.)

 

[pblur]

They were stated to not get Symphony bonuses unless we worked with them. That implies that they don't work well together.

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We've never gotten Symphony bonuses without them either. There are two running theories on symphony:

• 3+ Main actions
• At least a Main province and a Main nation action

Neither of those support your idea.

 

[notgreat]

Southshore and Eastern Hills don't really have those, or at least have shitty ones IIRC.

Western Wall definitely does not have them, and they, as ones who'll take a brunt of nomadic assault, would really really benefit from having a way to get reinforcements from us via quality roads.

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Southshore was before the [Main] strength New Trails in "The Salt Must Flow".
The rest haven't gotten a dedicated action, but we automatically build trails to them. We'd be seeing textual evidence of problems if it actually was an important issue. (We were seeing problems with the Stallions last time, nothing like that has popped up beyond the bad lower-level administrators which Enforce Law seems like it might fit better)

We have dirt trails and glorified dirt trails, not roads.

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Yes, and adding more dirt trails helps solve that how? We need better construction techniques, which is easiest brought through via Grand Dam or Golden Age innovation.

They were stated to not get Symphony bonuses unless we worked with them.

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Source? AFAIK we were told that 2 mains on the megaproject wasn't enough and that adding a 3rd main ourselves would be enough. Nothing about the source of those actions.

 

[pblur]

Also, while I'm on the "Library-senpai is best senpai" train, I think we should do Dam afterwards. It synergizes really well with the new farming technique from Xoh (which needs a reservoir of freshwater to work.)

 

[Citino]

Like, really, look at what the provinces probably would do to pick double main trails with their actions.

Northern Provinces: Hey, we're going to build a bunch of roads to make it easier to get around.
Other Northern Provinces: Cool, sounds like a good idea. We'll help.
Southern Provinces: Cool, but no benefit to us, so do it on your own. We're going to go study stars again.
NP: Ok, so now, I'm thinking the road should go from here to there.
NP City: Wait, but that will reduce trade for us!
NP: Ok, ok. So we'll make it so the road goes through your city then. Not quite as fast, but eh.
Another NP City: But that makes it so that road is better than ours!
NP: OK, fine, we'll make a side road connect to your city so that it benefits you as well.
Another Another NP City: But!
NP: *Sigh*


The King's Roadmaking: Ima build a road.
City: But!
King: Fuck you, I'm the King. That road is going to be useful to everyone, not just you.

 

[maximillian]

You innovate best when you focus on something, ie focusing on roads lead to better roads as people are tired of this shit and want a better way to do it /maintain it /utilise it. (we are a bit early for tunnel vision to be a concern)


New building techniques discovered when building a Palace are fantastic, but won't reach roads unless roads are something people focused on. And would be ancillary:they will be modified to fit roads. Which while effective is rather limited in potential. I'd rather new tech specifically suited to road engineering.



Maybe we can do study forest after? It's the bronze age and we still haven't domesticated bees for God sake! Never mind mushroom/herb farms!

 

[Citino]

Source? AFAIK we were told that 2 mains on the megaproject wasn't enough and that adding a 3rd main ourselves would be enough. Nothing about the source of those actions.

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Here.

With megaproject support already up, yes, you could pass the megaproject over to the provinces, although you wouldn't get the concentrated effort possibilities.

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Which, to me at least, implies that without the King, they don't get our bonuses.

 

[notgreat]

The King's Roadmaking: Ima build a road.
City: But!
King: Fuck you, I'm the King. That road is going to be useful to everyone, not just you.

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Not really. We actually have a (primitive) system of balance of powers. The King will take into account what those under him are saying, and their objects will be either dealt with or will be shown why they are of lesser importance than the benefits. If we don't we start getting stability drops.

Here.

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Concentrated is defined as "wholly directed to one thing; intense."
And indeed, increasing the effort by 50% by adding our own efforts as well would thus trigger it, as it would be a lot more intense/directed.

There is the Symphony's description boosting "concerted efforts" which might apply. But that's not confirmation either way.

 

[pblur]

Here.

Which, to me at least, implies that without the King, they don't get our bonuses.

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But the King doesn't get coordinated bonuses without the provinces either. So far as we know, this is completely equivalent.

 

[Candesce]

Which, to me at least, implies that without the King, they don't get our bonuses.

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I'd agree that Symphony's bonus almost certainly kicks in only when we're doing the same thing as our provinces.

But this means Symphony's bonus isn't free; it costs us in setup work and loss flexibility when there are often multiple things we need to be doing at once.

It's a nice bonus, but we should not be trying to force it to activate as often as possible.

 

[maximillian]

Like, really, look at what the provinces probably would do to pick double main trails with their actions.

Northern Provinces: Hey, we're going to build a bunch of roads to make it easier to get around.
Other Northern Provinces: Cool, sounds like a good idea. We'll help.
Southern Provinces: Cool, but no benefit to us, so do it on your own. We're going to go study stars again.
NP: Ok, so now, I'm thinking the road should go from here to there.
NP City: Wait, but that will reduce trade for us!
NP: Ok, ok. So we'll make it so the road goes through your city then. Not quite as fast, but eh.
Another NP City: But that makes it so that road is better than ours!
NP: OK, fine, we'll make a side road connect to your city so that it benefits you as well.
Another Another NP City: But!
NP: *Sigh*


The King's Roadmaking: Ima build a road.
City: But!
King: Fuck you, I'm the King. That road is going to be useful to everyone, not just you.

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Add legalese and high speak, and copious usage of gold and swords and that's real history.

 

[pblur]

Like, really, look at what the provinces probably would do to pick double main trails with their actions.

Northern Provinces: Hey, we're going to build a bunch of roads to make it easier to get around.
Other Northern Provinces: Cool, sounds like a good idea. We'll help.
Southern Provinces: Cool, but no benefit to us, so do it on your own. We're going to go study stars again.
NP: Ok, so now, I'm thinking the road should go from here to there.
NP City: Wait, but that will reduce trade for us!
NP: Ok, ok. So we'll make it so the road goes through your city then. Not quite as fast, but eh.
Another NP City: But that makes it so that road is better than ours!
NP: OK, fine, we'll make a side road connect to your city so that it benefits you as well.
Another Another NP City: But!
NP: *Sigh*


The King's Roadmaking: Ima build a road.
City: But!
King: Fuck you, I'm the King. That road is going to be useful to everyone, not just you.

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We... do have Symphony you know. It's probably a mistake to underestimate pettiness of humans in general, but I think this gets settles a lot more harmoniously most of the time.

 

[Kiba]

Maybe we can do study forest after? It's the bronze age and we still haven't domesticated bees for God sake! Never mind mushroom/herb farms!

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Herb are probably grown by shamans already.

Mushroom was only cultivated in the 17th century. Certainly, it was food for thousand of years, but nobody really thought to cultivate mushrooms.

 

[Citino]

Not really. We actually have a (primitive) system of balance of powers. The King will take into account what those under him are saying, and their objects will be either dealt with or will be shown why they are of lesser importance than the benefits.

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He will, but not nearly to the extent the province will. The King is in a position where he can act for the entirety of the nation, as compared to the province lords who will focus their efforts on their own people. Thus, the King won't get sidetracked trying to appease everyone like a group of provinces will.

We... do have Symphony you know. It's probably a mistake to underestimate pettiness of humans in general, but I think this gets settles a lot more harmoniously most of the time.

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Symphony is a great trait, and fixes a lot of problems.

But humans are still humans. If your lords are discussing making a road that will make your trade routes only half as useful, you are going to make sure that you get something out of it. And your local lord will probably back you.

This is why major projects done by centralized leaders work best. A king/emperor/president/whatever has to think about the whole, while the governor is going to be worried about the local effects. So instead of a nice straight road that a king builds to let his armies get around/open new areas to trade/whatever he wants, we get long, windy roads that meander through each city.

 

[pblur]

I'd agree that Symphony's bonus almost certainly kicks in only when we're doing the same thing as our provinces.

But this means Symphony's bonus isn't free; it costs us in setup work and loss flexibility when there are often multiple things we need to be doing at once.

It's a nice bonus, but we should not be trying to force it to activate as often as possible.

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I completely agree. Another caveat is that the mechanics of Symphony have not been shared with us. People here have been putting it at +1 Main action, but that's merely reasonable speculation. It could be +2, it could scale in some way, and it could have non-action impacts. We just don't know.

I personally price it at 1 Main or a bit more as well, so when considering a course of action that will activate it, I think of it as equivalent to 1 stab.

 

[pblur]

Symphony is a great trait, and fixes a lot of problems.

But humans are still humans. If your lords are discussing making a road that will make your trade routes only half as useful, you are going to make sure that you get something out of it. And your local lord will probably back you.

This is why projects done by centralized leaders work best. A king/emperor/president/whatever has to think about the whole, while the governor is going to be worried about the local effects. So instead of a nice straight road that a king builds to let his armies get around/open new areas to trade/whatever he wants, we get long, windy roads that meander through each city.

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Remember that the King does have a say in this as well; that's the policy setting. If we're set to Expansion policy, the provinces will try to abide by it, etc. Particularly on more focused policy settings, I suspect the bickering goes down a lot.

 

[maximillian]

Herb are probably grown by shamans already.

Mushroom was only cultivated in the 17th century. Certainly, it was food for thousand of years, but nobody really thought to cultivate mushrooms.

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Bees domestication is old enough that it's hard to get a very accurate date on, herbs are more likely systematicly collected than grown on large scale, and for mushrooms, large scale cultivation was quite late, but small scale attempts happened every now and then, the main reason for not expanding was the sheer unprofitability of it. And tiny minimaly nutrituos harvest compared to effort.

 

[pblur]

Bees domestication is old enough that it's hard to get a very accurate date on, herbs are more likely systematicly collected than grown on large scale, and for mushrooms, large scale cultivation was quite late, but small scale attempts happened every now and then, the main reason for not expanding was the sheer unprofitability of it. And tiny minimal nutrituos harvest compared to effort.

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According to this History of the mushroom | My Champi, mushrooms were probably first cultivated around 600 AD. The 17th century was just when Europe got around to it.