Paths of Civilization

sidestory · May 13, 2017

Lailoken said:
We have maxed legitimate and an easy way to restore it using at, which is also maxed. What we don't have is a reliable supply of hero units, especially compared to other civs- and look at everything just the one we currently have has accomplished.

This is misleading,

1. if we take the son, we won't be able to restore our Legitimacy outside of luck as we won't be able to decide the next few turns of actions due heroic admin
2. We have far more notable hero units then our neighbors due our type of government, which technically allows everybody who is talented enough to become a king, which are heroes by default & which isn't the case for our neighbour kingdoms
3. Our current Hero unit had a time of peace to perform her heroic action, we won't have the same here, therefore actual control might actually be better then just sitting on the sidelines and letting our hero do whatever he wants

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

Tylonius said:
I look forward to the day we roll a Heroic Martial, Diplomacy, Administration, Mystical Hero.

And then need to turn them down for political reasons.

This would actually happen.

Which is even funnier because people keep on going on about a meritocracy.

Academia Nut · May 13, 2017

Average kings have average stats mechanically, which still make them above average compared to the typical person.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

veekie said:
We've rebuffed two heroes to date because they are not the best options for setting precedent.

More that they were trying to destroy a massive mega project and trying to definitely make the king role more hereditary

Not like this guy who is not only the best for the job as acknowledged by everyone, but does not want to screw over the players and society

Kiba · May 13, 2017

sidestory said:
This is misleading,

1. if we take the son, we won't be able to restore our Legitimacy outside of luck as we won't be able to decide the next few turns of actions due heroic admin
2. We have far more notable hero units then our neighbors due our type of government, which technically allows everybody who is talented enough to become a king, which are heroes by default & which isn't the case for our neighbour kingdoms
3. Our current Hero unit had a time of peace to perform her heroic action, we won't have the same here, therefore actual control might actually be better then just sitting on the sidelines and letting our hero do whatever he wants

Point number one is wrong. The hero doesn't always take control.

ETA50M · May 13, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Average kings have average stats mechanically, which still make them above average compared to the typical person.

Ah the last part is where I got good from.

Hangwind · May 13, 2017

Academia Nut said:
non-existant->awful->poor->mediocre->average->above average->good->exceptional->heroic

Sivantic said:
Thay puts into question why show the stat in the first place. If his bad stats are immediately nulled, why would AN tell us?

I think that the lower you go below Average, the more of an active hinderance you are. Like Heroic is "Literally no-one is better than you", Average is "You aren't an expert, but you know which ideas are terrible and can work this area into an overall plan while leaving the details to your sub-chiefs", and non-existent is Dilbert boss "Your people experience a significant increase in productivity the less you know about what they're doing".

bluefur87 · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
We've been negative stability for several turns at a time before but now we are worrying about dropping out of Green?
Also it's already been discussed how to easily counteract that

We haven't been on green for a full turn, there have been stated implications to this.

Also, you know how we get out of a legitimacy hole? We proclaim glory.

You know the easiest thing to proclaim glory? Glorifying the current ruling family.

This is everything we gave up so much for, all so we can move someone from still being useful as an adviser, to being the king, when his war stats don't work well enough to prepare our people for the potential upcoming conflict. Because, no, it's not just about war missions, but by knowing what to build and who to build it.

What troops to build?
How many troops to build?
What defenses to build?
Where to build them?
How much of each of these things do we need?

All for a heroic admin to answer. Heroic admins, who tend to take over turns from us. A heroic admin who has mediocre martial talent.

This is a bad idea. A horrendous idea even.

Kiba · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
More that they were trying to destroy a massive mega project and trying to definitely make the king role more hereditary

That is a huge misrepresentation of their position.

They want to go back the old way and prevent abuses by making property ownership communal hereditary. They had never fought against the Law megaproject.

Lailoken · May 13, 2017

Since when do heros shut down the turn? I recall it happening once, and being told that a critical roll can cause them to do so, usually to fantastic benefit, not that they just always play autopilot.

In any case, I certainly trust the heroic admin's decisions far more than the thread's.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

ETA50M said:
Ah the last part is where I got good from.

Your average politician is much smarter than your average person, doesn't mean they aren't still an 'average' politician

veekie · May 13, 2017

Lailoken said:
Isn't the rule that the heir can't be of the same tribe as the king? That would seem to largely rule out inheritance.

Long gone. People have cheated this for so long that you could just send your kid to another city and pull strings so they get elected there.

Though Magwyna's son being Lustful is a notable flaw too, which hadn't been raised yet. He's been having sex with people, including married people. Enough that Magwyna was thankful he didn't inheriit Heroic Diplomacy, or he'd have made things De Facto Hereditary probably by impregnating every noble family

bluefur87 · May 13, 2017

Kiba said:
Point number one is wrong. The hero doesn't always take control.

All of our true heroic admins have taken control of the turn. AN even purposefully pointed this out.

He is a heroic admin, he is likely to take control.

Kiba · May 13, 2017

@Academia Nut

Will the Stallion Tribe be able to support us if we're attacked in the south?

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

bluefur87 said:
We haven't been on green for a full turn, there have been stated implications to this.

Also, you know how we get out of a legitimacy hole? We proclaim glory.

You know the easiest thing to proclaim glory? Glorifying the current ruling family.

This is everything we gave up so much for, all so we can move someone from still being useful as an adviser, to being the king, when his war stats don't work well enough to prepare our people for the potential upcoming conflict. Because, no, it's not just about war missions, but by knowing what to build and who to build it.

What troops to build?
How many troops to build?
What defenses to build?
Where to build them?
How much of each of these things do we need?

All for a heroic admin to answer. Heroic admins, who tend to take over turns from us. A heroic admin who has mediocre martial talent.

This is a bad idea. A horrendous idea even.

It's a remote possibility.

Again you are trying to make it out as though this is the definite end of the democratic monarchy.

It's not.

The son doesn't want to make the role more hereditary and we have already taken steps last turn with the wives to make sure that is less likely.

You are inflating a remote possibility into a certainty

ETA50M · May 13, 2017

McLuvin said:
Your average politician is much smarter than your average person, doesn't mean they aren't still an 'average' politician

What? A better analogy is the guy at work who knows how to do everyone's jobs well and understands the whole picture being tapped to lead rather then the one accountant whose exceptional at only his job.

Abby Normal · May 13, 2017

Lailoken said:
Isn't the rule that the heir can't be of the same tribe as the king? That would seem to largely rule out inheritance.

The last time i remember that coming up was Gwygoytha...you know, back in the time of myths, at least one government change ago, maybe two...When our entire polity consisted of 3 previously distinct groups (the valley people, the sea people, and the nomadic traders)...and Gwygoytha's son and granddaughter or whatever it was came to power specifically because the groups were merging in a lot of ways so it was easy to have each generation be a different one. If we have a similar rule now, it would probably be something like "can't have governor of the same province the king served as governor as, as heir", but we'd have to ask @Academia Nut cause i dont remember anything like that being mentioned.

McLuvin said:
More that they were trying to destroy a massive mega project and trying to definitely make the king role more hereditary

Not like this guy who is not only the best for the job as acknowledged by everyone, but does not want to screw over the players and society

They weren't going to destroy the mega project. We'd have still had the laws if they were elected. They were "just" going to destroy the tax reforms and change inheritance to hereditary (though even then, not full private ownership or anything), and had honestly pretty good arguments in character/as far as our People knew. I didn't want them either*, but can we stop lying about what they wanted to make them look worse?

*I think i voted for Patryn, but that was because i didn't like either option, and thought he was the lesser evil

Dream Logic · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

I have been convinced that we should avoid endangering the system. Even if it means we need to pass on that heroic admin.

Hopefully the diplomacy works. I mean, we have a heroic diplomancer so it should probably work?

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

Kiba said:
That is a huge misrepresentation of their position.

They want to go back the old way and prevent abuses by making property ownership communal hereditary. They had never fought against the Law megaproject.

They still would've wrecked it though. Which is why most people were against having them in charge

Powerofmind · May 13, 2017

Sivantic said:
Thay puts into question why show the stat in the first place. If his bad stats are immediately nulled, why would AN tell us?

Because it represents their personal ability. We were told when picking Bynwyn (the mystic) that except in very far-reaching grand strategy cases, the powers afforded the war chief would overrule Bynwyn's own.

McLuvin said:
How many other times has it worked out like that? We've passed up chances to have Heroic leaders and gained absolutely no benefit from it before. That happened several times.

We passed them up because they were actively antagonizing against the establishment, which we've worked quite hard to get to where it is.

Lailoken said:
Isn't the rule that the heir can't be of the same tribe as the king? That would seem to largely rule out inheritance.

Old rule for Big Man only, things have changed since then.

Katsuragi · May 13, 2017

[x] Support son (-1 Legitimacy, heir becomes Yehlmyn [Mediocre Martial, Good Diplomacy, Heroic Admin])

Say yes to promotion via merit.

Glassware · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)

The son is too heterosexual for me, how would we even make marriage alliances with him?

godofsmallthings · May 13, 2017

notgreat said:
The "we're about to go to war" argument would have a lot more weight if "small chance of triggering war" wasn't the currently leading vote by far.

Agreed. We have a Heroic Diplomat at helm right now. The chances of going to war are negligible. I dunno why people are throwing a hissy fit over it.

Plus we might need a Heroic Admin to take care of the new provinces we have set up. The usual average king would find it difficult to manage them. A Heroic Admin would know exactly what to do with these new provinces.

McLuvin · May 13, 2017

Powerofmind said:
We passed them up because they were actively antagonizing against the establishment, which we've worked quite hard to get to where it is.

I know why we passed them up and have been using it to support my argument.

What I'm saying in the post you quoted is that we didn't get any benefits from them to a lesser extent, as had been suggested by several debaters.

They believed that just because we had a Heroic character we would still be able to get his perks, they had one example of that happening, what you just quoted was my two examples of it not happening.

highs2lows · May 13, 2017

[X] Send an envoy to request the Thunder Speakers rein in youths (-2 Diplomacy, chance of TS king actually complying, small chance of triggering war)
[X] Remain quiet (Next king is probably standard)
nepotism will not be permitted.

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The 1%