Paths of Civilization

Citino · May 10, 2017

Sivantic said:
...by us burning the metal tools .

I've seen where this conversation ends. I'm going to wait for word of god.

You do remember that we don't just worship the big spirits, we also worship the spirits of the ground, rivers, etc... How would such spirits get to enjoy the offerings that are burnt?

Burning is most likely not the only way to sacrifice. It just happens to be the easiest way, plus it gets you in good with some of the weather spirits, which for a farmer is quite a nice bonus.

Edit: For example, to appease the earth spirits you might bury the god metal, or maybe throw some herbs or flowers into a river to get on the river spirits good side.

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

bluefur87 said:
By sacrificing enough tools in one way or another to gain a perceived outcome. Not by getting rid of all of our tools.

This is blatant interpretation to force me to be at fault, because if we were that bad we'd just shut down our metal mine. Just like if we so bad as to not be willing to sacrifice anything in the first place because it is so cursed, we wouldn't be willing to use the tools at all. So yes, I do believe that metal will be sacrificed in some way, yes I do believe that if we get a turn where random events to screw us over following everyone will believe it was the right thing to do! Thus, further digging us into this hole.

Your misinterpretation is all on your own head. I never said all.

Citino said:
You do remember that we don't just worship the big spirits, we also worship the spirits of the ground, rivers, etc... How would such spirits get to enjoy the offerings that are burnt?

Burning is most likely not the only way to sacrifice. It just happens to be the easiest way, plus it gets you in good with some of the weather spirits, which for a farmer is quite a nice bonus.

Don't even try, have you already forgotten the opt in argument?

This would be nothing more than a rehash of that.

Let us wait for AN

Umi-san · May 10, 2017

bluefur87 said:

The first line was to point out we are currently at 2 stability, so you were factually wrong. The second line was to point out that no matter what we do, people will find fault with her, so trying to be the bestest is a foolish idea. The third line is to point out that a high stability just makes the population happy, it does not stop her critics, who will be the people who tell everyone how she didn't actually listen to them and help a great deal. The third line addresses your point. Me not agreeing with you doesn't mean I haven't addressed your point.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

I already replied to that sentence. Note that it applies only to the immediate future, too, and thus misses my point.

bluefur87 said:

No, people achieving long lasting monuments has often cemented their legacy more so than how happy the population was around their time. Actions are what history remembers more than vague fondness.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

To repeat myself, people achieving things cements their image; her image is surrounded by a plague and a decrease in happiness. GS, at least, fights the latter.

Edit: K, whatever, this will go nowhere and just create bad feeling.

Huh, you're right, our mine is still working. How does that impact how people view the curse? As something that's unleashed when the metal is first uncovered? They certainly don't seem to view it as an inherent property if they're fine using existing metal tools.

keenscythe · May 10, 2017

[X] Omegahugger

Citino · May 10, 2017

Sivantic said:
Don't even try, have you already forgotten the opt in argument?

This would be nothing more than a rehash of that.

Let us wait for AN

Just wanted to point out that GS isn't just 'burn shit to make the spirits happy', since you really hung up on the seemed 'burning metal' part, which is a bit silly imo. The sacrifice is what matters.

(...Well, it's mostly about burning shit to make spirits happy, but there are probably other rituals to sacrifice stuff involved as well.)

bluefur87 · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
tbh idr what your stance is other than "I want trails and aqueducts but don't care about stability"

I support trails and the aqueducts but care about stability just as much.

I don't support a blaze-ahead approach to the aqueduct because that just means the ST will be less perturbed by people from other places helping them, and thus have less of an impact in changing people. Older people are set in their opinions, so the best way to change them is to expose the young ones to foreigners as long as possible.

My vote will probably be like this:
Main GS
Change Policy -> Expansion
Aqueduct

This mixes people as well as possible, uses her admin score to manage the project and diplo score to interface with the ST and people sacrificing possessions, and gets us another provincial action. We can do a Salt Gift + whatever else is necessary/desired the turn after.

Restore Order is an Administrative Action. We have someone with Heroic Administration. We have thematic reasons to believe it will further help with our March Problem. Did AN clarify and say that when we had the option to use Restore Order at 0 Stability, that was a mistake on his part? Because unless I missed that in this mess, people seem to be forgetting that we can apparently use Restore Order at 0 Stability, and with a heroic admin character, that would very likely get us a +2

A festival is also of greater potential value than Grand Sacrifice, as she will be more easily remembered via the art and stories passed down. It is also less likely to burn us on creating more superstitions, though it may entrench current ones, so that is a worry. I've said it a hundred times, but don't just look at the hard numbers, pay attention to what each option actually does.

Edit: My point is, you have become obsessed with a single action being what we need to restore our stability, Grand Sacrifice. I ask that you look at the thematics behind all of the stability restoring actions, because we have ascertained, quite heavily, that there are parts to many of our options that have effects we are simply not privy to.

Umi-san said:
I already replied to that sentence. Note that it applies only to the immediate future, too, and thus misses my point.

To repeat myself, people achieving things cements their image; her image is surrounded by a plague and a decrease in happiness. GS, at least, fights the latter.

I didn't say you didn't raise a point or that my point has obviously convinced you, I said I addressed it.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1222 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.8.3
[100] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[71] Random Admin tech upgrade
[70] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[51] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[48] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[18] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.
[17] Random Construction tech upgrade
[9] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[8] Let it be known that you have room (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[5] Study Health (-1 Econ, greater chance of new discoveries)
[4] You have lots of room (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, chance of further effects)
[3] Attrikwyn ([Good Admin, Diplo, and Martial]
[3] Free holy site expansion (+2 Mysticism)
[1] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ)
[1] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)[/QUOTE]
[1] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)[/QUOTE]

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[1][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[1][Secondary] Copper Mine
[1][Secondary] Copper Mine X2

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[1][Kick] The Garden
Total No. of Voters: 104

tryrar · May 10, 2017

ok, someone is a vote behind and need to edit

Citino · May 10, 2017

tryrar said:
ok, someone is a vote behind and need to edit

It's @zamin

He had that analysis IIRC that had the previous votes in it.

tryrar · May 10, 2017

Citino said:
It's @zamin

He had that analysis IIRC that had the previous votes in it.

then he needs to kill the xs

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Citino said:
Just wanted to point out that GS isn't just 'burn shit to make the spirits happy', since you really hung up on the seemed 'burning metal' part, which is a bit silly imo. The sacrifice is what matters.

(...Well, it's mostly about burning shit to make spirits happy, but there are probably other rituals to sacrifice stuff involved as well.)

My opinion was that metal wouldn't be part of that. You guys say otherwise.

We have no facts.

Thus. I left it to AN.

Umi-san · May 10, 2017

bluefur87 said:
Restore Order is an Administrative Action. We have someone with Heroic Administration. We have thematic reasons to believe it will further help with our March Problem. Did AN clarify and say that when we had the option to use Restore Order at 0 Stability, that was a mistake on his part? Because unless I missed that in this mess, people seem to be forgetting that we can apparently use Restore Order at 0 Stability, and with a heroic admin character, that would very likely get us a +2

A festival is also of greater potential value than Grand Sacrifice, as she will be more easily remembered via the art and stories passed down. It is also less likely to burn us on creating more superstitions, though it may entrench current ones, so that is a worry. I've said it a hundred times, but don't just look at the hard numbers, pay attention to what each option actually does.

I didn't say you didn't raise a point or that my point has obviously convinced you, I said I addressed it.

My understanding of RoO is that we can use it at -1 and if it rolls a +2 it will carry over. It probably cannot be used at 0. I say this because someone (idr, sorry whoever it is) gave me a quote pointing to a note on one of the main posts where AN says it will roll over. When that post occurred we were at -1, according to a comment on the same page.

Is your main issue with doing Grand Sacrifice and possibly entrenching the belief further, then? I am quite confident that such a thing would not occur, but I suppose I'd be fine with a Festival. I just want to keep our stability high.

And I said you didn't.

To bring up edits to add different facets to our discussion:

Umi-san said:
Edit: K, whatever, this will go nowhere and just create bad feeling.

Huh, you're right, our mine is still working. How does that impact how people view the curse? As something that's unleashed when the metal is first uncovered? They certainly don't seem to view it as an inherent property if they're fine using existing metal tools.

Umi-san said:
tbh idr what your stance is other than "I want trails and aqueducts but don't care about stability"

I support trails and the aqueducts but care about stability just as much.

I don't support a blaze-ahead approach to the aqueduct because that just means the ST will be less perturbed by people from other places helping them, and thus have less of an impact in changing people. Older people are set in their opinions, so the best way to change them as a culture is to expose the young ones to foreigners as long as possible.

My vote will probably be like this:
Main GS
Change Policy -> Expansion
Aqueduct

This mixes people as well as possible, uses her admin score to manage the project and diplo score to interface with the ST and people sacrificing possessions, and gets us another provincial action. We can do a Salt Gift + whatever else is necessary/desired the turn after.

Regrettably, I'll be going to the gym in ~10-15 minutes.

Citino · May 10, 2017

Sivantic said:
My opinion was that metal wouldn't be part of that. You guys say otherwise.

We have no facts.

Thus. I left it to AN.

That's fine, but you repeatedly brought up that it wouldn't be part of that based on the fact that metal doesn't burns, which is a weak argument at best. If you said something like tools not really being appealing to spirits, or our people being too afraid to damage a material of the gods, which were some of your other arguments I believe, that would be fine. But metal not burning and thus being unable to be sacrificed is a horrible argument.

That said, I'll leave it to AN as well. Just wanted to give my two cents on that part of your argument since it was dragging down your other ones.

notgreat · May 10, 2017

bluefur87 said:
Because unless I missed that in this mess, people seem to be forgetting that we can apparently use Restore Order at 0 Stability, and with a heroic admin character, that would very likely get us a +2

Here's the quote that was posted earlier in the discussion.

Academia Nut said:
AN: To answer a question, yes, if you take Restore Order and the result is +2 Stability you will be at 1 Stability rather than 0 despite it being the max. The overflow is allowed.

While it doesn't answer the question directly, it does imply that we can't use it while at 0 stability since then we would be at the max instead of under it. edit: Same as how we can't use Festivals when we're at the max of 2 stability, only when we're under that max.

bluefur87 · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
My understanding of RoO is that we can use it at -1 and if it rolls a +2 it will carry over. It probably cannot be used at 0. I say this because someone (idr, sorry whoever it is) gave me a quote pointing to a note on one of the main posts where AN says it will roll over. When that post occurred we were at -1, according to a comment on the same page.

Is your main issue with doing Grand Sacrifice and possibly entrenching the belief further, then? I am quite confident that such a thing would not occur, but I suppose I'd be fine with a Festival. I just want to keep our stability high.

Yes, that is my main issue with it. I view it as an inferior method of gaining stability, and honestly, if we can use restore order at 0 stability (and end up there), I would be rather okay with your proposed vote, as it does start addressing the issue of the March.

We were at 0 Stability here if I remember. Restore Order was an option, so either AN made a mistake, or we can use it at 0 stability. I remember many people commenting on this, and us never getting an answer, then next turn vote it was crossed out and we were at 1 Stability.

notgreat said:
Here's the quote that was posted earlier in the discussion.

I am aware of that, we were specifically at -1 Stability at the time. So it shows we can get the overflow.

redzonejoe · May 10, 2017

Necratoid said:
Bodies were moved and plague broke out. Taboos against haphazardly handling the dead aren't a bad thing and it did help things... particularly with all infrastructural reorganization that The People do.

Star Fall leading to Star Plagues did this as well. The People have established 'Cause and Effect' through observance. They have not gotten the concept of 'Correlation doesn't automatically equal Causation'.

The 'Metal equals Disease' rumor is a result of them not being methodical enough in how they think about things. The trait that determines how The People think about things is the one that directly effect the way things are thought about.

In short... I see your conclusion as wrong.

I'm pretty sure the body example and your own star fall example prove that our people had established cause and effect long before we had the observance trait.

Aaaaand I'm 15 pages behind. Neat!

Umi-san · May 10, 2017

Academia Nut said:
AN: To answer a question, yes, if you take Restore Order and the result is +2 Stability you will be at 1 Stability rather than 0 despite it being the max. The overflow is allowed.

aceraptor said:
We need stability up folks. -1 is too close for comfort to the red line.

It was at -1.

bluefur87 said:
Yes, that is my main issue with it. I view it as an inferior method of gaining stability, and honestly, if we can use restore order at 0 stability (and end up there), I would be rather okay with your proposed vote, as it does start addressing the issue of the March.

We were at 0 Stability here if I remember. Restore Order was an option, so either AN made a mistake, or we can use it at 0 stability. I remember many people commenting on this, and us never getting an answer, then next turn vote it was crossed out and we were at 1 Stability.

It would be cool if we could do RoO, but tbh~ I doubt it and think it was just a mistake. It doesn't make sense for it to be otherwise, as it's a restoration to order/normality, and 0 is order/normality, so restoration shouldn't need to be restored. Also, O looks a lot like 0.

I actually quite like GS. I like the idea of there being a bonfire and people bringing out things they treasure, clutching them to their chest for a moment, and then throwing them onto the fire as a sacrifice to the spirits and to their ancestors. It evokes a strong sense of community and of equality.

The minimum we'd end up at w/o additional harmful rolls occurring is 0. I hope that we end up at 1, and feel it's somewhat likely, as Festival would then be satisfactory in terms of raising our stability.

Edit: Going now. Will reply to replies* when I'm back unless I'm feeling withdrawal-y and willing to burn my cellular data.

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Citino said:
That's fine, but you repeatedly brought up that it wouldn't be part of that based on the fact that metal doesn't burns, which is a weak argument at best. If you said something like tools not really being appealing to spirits, or our people being too afraid to damage a material of the gods, which were some of your other arguments I believe, that would be fine. But metal not burning and thus being unable to be sacrificed is a horrible argument.

That said, I'll leave it to AN as well. Just wanted to give my two cents on that part of your argument since it was dragging down your other ones.

My argument was not that it wouldn't work because it wouldn't burn.

My argument was that it wouldn't burn, it would melt. In which process it might release toxic fumes as we aren't necessarily working with pure copper. Those toxic fumes would cause them to realize that trying to sacrifice tools might not be the best idea.

Sivantic said:
Except metal doesn't burn. It becomes the same as trying to perform a ritual with a cursed item. If the items aren't pure, then they are just as likely to release toxic fumes as well.

That isn't going to encourage anyone to sacrifice it.

I suppose I could have specified.

bluefur87 · May 10, 2017

Umi-san said:
It would be cool if we could do RoO, but tbh~ I doubt it and think it was just a mistake. It doesn't make sense for it to be otherwise, as it's a restoration to order/normality, and 0 is order/normality, so restoration shouldn't need to be restored. Also, O looks a lot like 0.

I actually quite like GS. I like the idea of there being a bonfire and people bringing out things they treasure, clutching them to their chest for a moment, and then throwing them onto the fire as a sacrifice to the spirits and to their ancestors. It evokes a strong sense of community and of equality.

The minimum we'd end up at w/o additional harmful rolls occurring is 0. I hope that we end up at 1, and feel it's somewhat likely, as Festival would then be satisfactory in terms of raising our stability.

It was noticed, slightly before the update that the wording of Restore Order could imply it could be used at 0 Stability. I remember several people asking about it at many times, so it should have been brought to AN's attention.

Maybe we'll find out, hopefully we won't, really hopefully TGG will trigger. That said, I am becoming more and more convinced that 'tiny' means 'might as well not exist unless it could possibly completely screw you over.'

Citino · May 10, 2017

Sivantic said:
My argument was not that it wouldn't work because it wouldn't burn.

My argument was that it wouldn't burn, it would melt. In which process it might release toxic fumes as we aren't necessarily working with pure copper. Those toxic fumes would cause them to realize that trying to sacrifice tools might not be the best idea.

Eh, that's still a pretty weak argument. I mean, they already know that melting it can be dangerous, so they would probably just bury it instead. A sort of 'return it from whence it came' sort of thing.

Our people burn stuff to send it to the major spirits of the sky, since the minor ones can probably be appeased with daily ritual stuff at an individual level. So if they thought that the metal was meant to be returned to the spirits, they'd probably just dig a 'sacred' pit, toss it in with a nice ritual, and then bury it. Appease the terrestial spirits and hope they lift the disease, since trying to send it back to the celestials who dropped it is too hard and dangerous.

Kiba · May 10, 2017

A note: The Ymaryn knowing that they can acquire better "magic" to defeat disease meaning that they might have an ahistorical outlook.

The Romans probably don't conceive of anything like technological progress. Everything was virtually the same before and after they died.

Andres · May 10, 2017

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Citino said:
Eh, that's still a pretty weak argument. I mean, they already know that melting it can be dangerous, so they would probably just bury it instead. A sort of 'return it from whence it came' sort of thing.

Our people burn stuff to send it to the major spirits of the sky, since the minor ones can probably be appeased with daily ritual stuff at an individual level. So if they thought that the metal was meant to be returned to the spirits, they'd probably just dig a 'sacred' pit, toss it in with a nice ritual, and then bury it. Appease the terrestial spirits and hope they lift the disease, since trying to send it back to the celestials who dropped it is too hard and dangerous.

That just causes it to poison the ground.

Which in turn, you say that they would seal it like they do their dangerous materials by using waterproof urns.

At which point, I just don't understand that if they already know what harm metal can do, why on earth did they decide that they were weapons of gods.

Like seriously, we've been digging up stuff since way before and the Metal Workers...

There's an Idea. What if we sent a trade mission to either the Metal Workers or the Hahathyn? Clearly they already know how to deal with it, since they've been working with metal even longer than us. So have them teach us the "proper" way

Sivantic · May 10, 2017

Andres110 said:
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

aww, why the switch? ;_;

notgreat · May 10, 2017

To display in one place the arguments for taking the maximum refugee wave:
1) We likely get to steal tech from the relatively upper class immigrants that will come if we take larger numbers- otherwise we only get the lower class with nothing to lose from leaving (edit: Cosmopolitan Acceptance says we get "technological and social advancement by absorbing especially large numbers of people")
2) We get our first "true city" while we have a heroic admin leader to deal with any issues that may arise from that
3) This drops our stability just low enough that we can use a Restoration of Order. It has recently been confirmed that not only does our admin skill modify the chance of getting the better values, it also adds additional effects- likely reducing corruption
4) Festivals are also incredibly boosted by our hero, since their additional effects roll against admin and diplo. Our hero has heroic skills in both.
5) It's more efficient. In the absolute worst case scenario, recovering to our current stability will take ~8 actions due to the incredibly efficient RoO action. We get ~8 additional econ anyway from this. We have a chance for lower stability loss due to both the initial "chance" modifier and the likelihood of GG triggering, and the chance for additional econ benefit (among other things- it was mentioned a long while ago that we'd be grabbing things like their warriors and other specialists when we take larger refugee waves)
6) Taking in larger populations of refugees is more likely to cause Cosmopolitan Acceptance to evolve even further as we get more use out of it. CA is already massively better than LoO, and while further evolution is likely a few turns off, it's still something we definitely want.

Arguments against and associated rebuttals:
0*) I and many others thought that the standard ordering rules applied, meaning that this had a chance of bringing us to -4 stability and instantly killing us. AN has since confirmed that our hero's admin skills actually apply even while she's only the heir, meaning that this can't happen.
1) Integrating the March is more important
- Unless you think that this problem is going to boil over in 1-2 turns into a civil war, going with the maximum wave puts us in a better position to create infrastructure and otherwise aid the north in integrating with us the turn after next. And while they're not totally happy with us, that's represented by the stability drops: as long as we keep stability above -4 we should get pretty clear warning that they're considering fighting us instead of just desiring one reasonable leader over another.
2) Dropping to a low stability (-1 or -2) is really bad
- It's bad, but Policy: Restoration means we're out of that hole the same turn we enter it. The cause of the stability loss is the sheer number of people who don't understand our ways, and as mentioned above we have a massive bonus to Restore Order and Festivals due to the hero's skills. They're fleeing their homes because they think our ways are better, we just need to teach them what they are. We also get a free switch off of the policy once we hit Stability 3.
3) The city will be a breeding ground for disease
- We already have about as good healthcare as we'll ever get for the next dozen or so turns, and the Whooping Cough isn't going to be stopped by not putting a city together. The explicit point of The Garden is to make it so that it's not any worse than our older settlements.
4) Overcrowding
- It's only a chance. Even if it does trigger, we have two new province locations available to us. This might even cause us to automatically get a new province since our heroic admin hero will see the need coming and deal with it.

These arguments were all true before the revelation, but argument 0 made it not worth the risk. With the revelation that argument 0 is invalid, this option suddenly becomes massively more viable. As such I believe that there should be a vote reset, the same as how when The Garden became massively more viable due to the extra +1 stability. There were also 2 other changes that occurred mid-vote, as we got +1 extra econ and gained the option to Study Health. While these two will likely not heavily affect people's votes, the massive shift from ~20% chance of instant-death to 0% is a very significant change.

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

No longer NEET

Procrastinating.

Vaguely Pastafarian

Procrastinating.