Regarding pertussis, it's a bitch. Immunity is partial to begin with, and fades pretty quick. On top of that, even if the immunity stops somebody from displaying the disease, they have a nasty habit of still acting as a carrier. This is not like smallpox.
Quotes from CDC:

Q: Doesn't herd immunity protect most people?
A: Herd immunity (or community immunity) is a situation in which, through vaccination or prior illness, a sufficient proportion of a population is immune to an infectious disease, making its spread from person to person unlikely. Even individuals not vaccinated (such as newborns and those with chronic illnesses) are typically protected because the disease has little opportunity to spread within their community. Since pertussis spreads so easily, vaccine protection decreases over time, and acellular pertussis vaccines may not prevent colonization (carrying the bacteria in your body without getting sick) or spread of the bacteria, we can't rely on herd immunity to protect people from pertussis.
Vaccines are the most effective tool we have to provide protection against pertussis. It's important that everyone get their recommended pertussis vaccines to protect themselves.

Q: Do pertussis vaccines protect for a lifetime?
Pertussis vaccines are effective, but not perfect. They typically offer good levels of protection within the first 2 years of getting vaccinated, but then protection decreases over time. This is known as waning immunity. Similarly, natural infection may also only protect you for a few years.

Q: Why are reported cases of pertussis increasing?
A: Since the early 1980s, there has been an overall trend of an increase in reported pertussis cases. Pertussis is naturally cyclic in nature, with peaks in disease every 3-5 years. But for the past few decades, peaks got higher and overall case counts went up. There are several reasons that help explain why we're seeing more cases as of late. These include: increased awareness, improved diagnostic tests, better reporting, more circulation of the bacteria, and waning immunity. The bacteria that cause pertussis are also always changing at a genetic level. Research is underway to determine if any of the recent changes may be related to the increase in disease.

When it comes to waning immunity, it seems that the acellular pertussis vaccines (DTaP and Tdap) we use now may not protect for as long as the whole cell vaccine (DTP) we used to use.... [People switched from whole cell to acellular vaccines because of unsubstantiated accusations that they cause mental damage.]

Q: Are most coughs pertussis and does everyone with pertussis "whoop"?
A: There are a lot of causes behind a person's cough and not every cough is pertussis. In general, pertussis starts off with cold-like symptoms and maybe a mild cough or fever. But after 1 to 2 weeks, severe coughing can begin. Unlike the common cold, pertussis can become a series of coughing fits that continues for weeks. The best way to know if you have pertussis is to see your doctor, who can make a diagnosis and prescribe antibiotics if needed.
The name "whooping cough" comes from the sound people make gasping for air after a pertussis coughing fit. However, not everyone with pertussis will cough and many who cough will not "whoop."
Teens and adults, especially those who haven't been vaccinated, may have a prolonged cough that keeps them up at night. Those who do get the coughing fits say it's the worst cough of their lives. And the cough may last for weeks or months, causing major disruptions to daily life and complications like broken ribs and ruptured blood vessels.
Babies may not cough at all. Instead, they may have life-threatening pauses (apnea) in breathing or struggle to breathe. Any time someone is struggling to breathe, it is important to get them to a doctor right away.
 
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The gender bias can be reduced If we ensure both male and female receive training and inheritance.

Having wealth and knowledge directly increase one's independence, thus allowing them to strive for greater achievement if they wish.

So enforced universal inheritance for every family in our realm? It will also break up the large families and breed competition among the heirs, discouraging formation of large alliance and encourages smaller plots within the wealth groups.


Might accident age of strife and chaos if carried out badly.
 
Technically it wouldn't end the game. IIRC, it would "just" cause civilization failure, likely civil war, and we'd have to choose which of the successor states we wanted to play as. Still something we want to avoid for... very obvious reasons.

But yeah, I and many others avoided the -4.5 stability option since a -5 combined with a bad admin roll causing the GS to come afterwards would cause civilization failure. With the clarification that electing Magwyna means that this won't happen, suddenly we have a chance to get a lot of useful items and still be in a good position to put them to use within a single turn. (Tech upgrade from refugees, True City status, plausibly getting closer to upgrading our value again, the costs are reduced due to Greater Good, Restoration of Order and Festivals are both massively powered up due to the heroic skills, and probably some more that have been argued already but that I'm forgetting). These were all true before, but paled in comparison to a civilization failure since that would kinda ruin everything. By removing that primary downside, it massively changes the valuation.
 
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It should also be pointed out that the first 4 or so pages, whenever someone voted for the -5 stab option, they were bombarded with things like 'are you crazy, that will destroy the civ!' or 'don't be stupid, that puts us one bad roll from game over'.

Which was then disproven a short time ago.

So yeah, the new info is pretty game changing.
 
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It should also be pointed out that the first 4 or so pages, whenever someone voted for the -5 stab option, they were bombarded with things like 'are you crazy, that will destroy the civ!' or 'don't be stupid, that puts us one bad roll from game over'.

So yeah, the new info is pretty game changing.
Except it's not like discussion has actually stopped by this point, and it evolved pretty quickly from 'let's fear monger about this' to 'huh, there's actually a lot of opportunity here that immigrants would fuck up!'

My issue is that time and time again it's been pointed out we have a lot of tension and issue with the newer immigrants disagreeing with how we run things. The Stallion Tribes are absolutely a rallying point for that, and it's pretty easy for them to make a populist platform again if they can appeal to those immigrants.

Immigration is so much more than just econ, stab, and tech- and no one who is voting for it has adequately acknowledge the societal impact. Congrats! Either our massive capital city is filled with people who don't necessarily like how we do things or our next province is one far more inclined to back the Stallions.

We don't need a metric ton of econ right now, we don't urgently need to keep up with our neighbors in terms of tech, and we still have the highest population in the region. Going all in was chasing the shiny then, and it's chasing the fucking shiny now. The fact it costs less for us in one single facet doesn't change that in the slightest.

Edit: My point is, the actual issues we need to try and address are hurt by grabbing immigrants- this is a fact. And while shiny, the immigrants don't offer us anything that's really more than a nice to have by this point.
 
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The gender bias can be reduced If we ensure both male and female receive training and inheritance.

Having wealth and knowledge directly increase one's independence, thus allowing them to strive for greater achievement if they wish.

So enforced universal inheritance for every family in our realm? It will also break up the large families and breed competition among the heirs, discouraging formation of large alliance and encourages smaller plots within the wealth groups.


Might accident age of strife and chaos if carried out badly.

We are communal, there's no thing called "inheritance"
 
We don't need a metric ton of econ right now, we don't urgently need to keep up with our neighbors in terms of tech, and we still have the highest population in the region. Going all in was chasing the shiny then, and it's chasing the fucking shiny now. The fact it costs less for us in one single facet doesn't change that in the slightest.
Yeah? So is integrating the March, that's another shiny. The only thing that isn't a shiny is staying above -4 stability. Everything else is optional.

By grabbing the maximum refugees we're in an excellent position to do large infrastructure projects and other such things after a single [Main] Restore Order. In contrast, going with the minimum refugee count means we'll need to switch to Policy: Expansion if we want to have any chance of having enough econ to do what we want, and that means a much slower rate of getting things done since our provinces will all be busy drumming up the econ to pay for the infrastructure instead of just working on said infrastructure.
 
@Academia Nut

Are shamans and medicine man relativity numerous when compared to HK and Western TH?

Like if a family gets sick will the shaman visit them within a week? (Disregarding the current disease situation.)

Is our myth score relevant in the diease situation?
 
Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Gravity hasn't been discovered either but apples still fall.
I honestly don't care too much about the battle against sexism, I just want that beautiful Heroic Admin and Diplo leader. I mean, I'm usually all for trying to incorporate the Stallion Tribes into our society, but fuck their leader. I'll take 2 heroic traits over 3 good traits.
Except it's not like discussion has actually stopped by this point, and it evolved pretty quickly from 'let's fear monger about this' to 'huh, there's actually a lot of opportunity here that immigrants would fuck up!'

My issue is that time and time again it's been pointed out we have a lot of tension and issue with the newer immigrants disagreeing with how we run things. The Stallion Tribes are absolutely a rallying point for that, and it's pretty easy for them to make a populist platform again if they can appeal to those immigrants.

Immigration is so much more than just econ, stab, and tech- and no one who is voting for it has adequately acknowledge the societal impact. Congrats! Either our massive capital city is filled with people who don't necessarily like how we do things or our next province is one far more inclined to back the Stallions.

We don't need a metric ton of econ right now, we don't urgently need to keep up with our neighbors in terms of tech, and we still have the highest population in the region. Going all in was chasing the shiny then, and it's chasing the fucking shiny now. The fact it costs less for us in one single facet doesn't change that in the slightest.

Edit: My point is, the actual issues we need to try and address are hurt by grabbing immigrants- this is a fact. And while shiny, the immigrants don't offer us anything that's really more than a nice to have by this point.
That's a good argument against taking in refugees, but its not as much of one against redoing the vote.

The beginning fearmongering had a massive impact on the vote. Going back to the beginning, people were originally enthusiastic about the True City and innovations we could steal, but that was pretty quickly killed by people literally quoting people that put their vote out to tell them how bad of an idea that was. We never really discussed it after it was shot down in those first few pages, other than some people who thought the risk was worth it. AN confirming that the biggest argument against it in the beginning was false is a pretty big change.

As to the societal changes, you do remember that Festivals, the things that are used to teach newcomers the ways of the people, are Diplo/Admin influenced? And that we have a heroic diplo/admin leader next turn? Throw a main festival, and we get a nice stab increase and who knows what else with that synergy.

Edit: And taking in refugees will definitely help improve our tech, so that addresses the one major issue. Especially as we are taking in some of pretty much every group, and thus have a chance to steal all the tech.
 
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@Academia Nut

Are shamans and medicine man relativity numerous when compared to HK and Western TH?

Like if a family gets sick will the shaman visit them within a week? (Disregarding the current disease situation.)

Is our myth score relevant in the diease situation?

In most places the local shaman would try to visit within the day, although there are obviously times when they get busy and would end up taking longer because they have some other ritual to do or other people to look over.
 
Immigration is so much more than just econ, stab, and tech- and no one who is voting for it has adequately acknowledge the societal impact. Congrats! Either our massive capital city is filled with people who don't necessarily like how we do things or our next province is one far more inclined to back the Stallions.
Our next and currently newest province will be/is to the south, filled with southerners, people who do not have the same traits and values as the Stallions. They will be together in their difference, but also opposed by it.

Cultural integration is an issue that can be dealt with through art, trade, and whatever a fancy word for moving people around is.


Plus, having a bum rush of pop. explosion in Southshore means we'll start outcompeting the damned SHP for land. The thieves!!!
 
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Yeah? So is integrating the March, that's another shiny. The only thing that isn't a shiny is staying above -4 stability. Everything else is optional.
You lost me. Major ideological drift and culture clash is going on and you're calling it a fucking shiny? 'It might eventually escalate to separatism and civil war- AN specifically mentioned it but it's not fucking important because it's a shiny?'

:rage:


as for econ, can you actually be fucking reasonable about that? We have 6(+1) econ, that's enough for at least 3 aqueducts if we don't waste econ on GS. It's hardly the end of the world if we're generating money in expansion mode.

As to the societal changes, you do remember that Festivals, the things that are used to teach newcomers the ways of the people, are Diplo/Admin influenced? And that we have a heroic diplo/admin leader next turn? Throw a main festival, and we get a nice stab increase and who knows what else with that synergy.
Yes, because we have a ton of actions and just throwing festivals at our immigrants has worked out nicely for us before. The point is- immigrants? Strictly optional. And while I suppose notgreat has a point in preventing civil fucking war is optional- call me biased but I'd much rather avoid it.

Frankly, there will always be a refugee crisis. It'll be there in a turn or two, and that's perfectly fine by me. The only reason this is even in question is because the heroic admin. If we resolve the crisis and regain our stab- there's nothing stopping us from grabbing refugees later on, even next turn. But starting our reign with the diplomatic coup against the stallions becomes so much harder if we're having to waste time with stability and acclimatizing immigrants we don't actually need.
 
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One sec.

gotta vote myself.

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)


Edit: I did this so there wasn't a tie. I'm fine with either one, but New Trails out did Grand Sac by a nanowire.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on May 10, 2017 at 7:00 PM, finished with 31272 posts and 104 votes.
 
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You lost me. Major ideological drift and culture clash is going on and you're calling it a fucking shiny? 'It might eventually escalate to separatism and civil war- AN specifically mentioned it but it's not fucking important because it's a shiny?'

:rage:


as for econ, can you actually be fucking reasonable about that? We have 6(+1) econ, that's enough for at least 3 aqueducts if we don't waste econ on GS. It's hardly the end of the world if we're generating money in expansion mode.
Yeah? It's not 'major' yet, it's moderate. Solving it now is definitely not a requirement, though it will incur further stability hits over time until eventually it causes said sole non-shiny to trigger. It is a shiny to solve it immediately, as solving it sooner will save us resources that could be better spent in other places. Similarly, tech upgrades and econ boosts save us resources that could be better spent in other places.

And what? 7 econ is not enough for 3 aqueducts unless that's literally the only thing you're going for. Since ending up above 0 stability means we can't use the super-effective Restore Harmony, Grand Sacrifice is significantly more cost-effective than Festivals but loses the extra effects which are probably exactly what we want. And Festivals are expensive now.

And no, it's not the end of the world. It's simply more actions spent generating economy than would be spent restoring stability.
 
Yeah? It's not 'major' yet, it's moderate. Solving it now is definitely not a requirement, though it will incur further stability hits over time until eventually it causes said sole non-shiny to trigger. It is a shiny to solve it immediately, as solving it sooner will save us resources that could be better spent in other places. Similarly, tech upgrades and econ boosts save us resources that could be better spent in other places.
Stallions openly lambasting a political candidate, serving as a rallying point of dissent in the North, entrenching and spreading cultural values this thread refuses to accept. Treating an infection before it becomes gangrenous is common fucking sense, not pursuing a luxury like a shiny.
 
Yes, because we have a ton of actions and just throwing festivals at our immigrants has worked out nicely for us before. The point is- immigrants? Strictly optional. And while I suppose notgreat has a point in preventing civil fucking war is optional- call me biased but I'd much rather avoid it.

Frankly, there will always be a refugee crisis. It'll be there in a turn or two, and that's perfectly fine by me.
Throwing a festival under a diplo/admin leader is definitely not a waste of action. Ignoring the mechanical benefits of stab and art increase, a crit, which is likely with our leader, on a festival could bring about amazing things for our society, such as incorporating the various new immigrants, promoting new forms of craftsmanship and innovation or increasing community ties.
Stallions openly lambasting a political candidate, serving as a rallying point of dissent in the North, entrenching and spreading cultural values this thread refuses to accept. Treating an infection before it becomes gangrenous is common fucking sense, not pursuing a luxury like a shiny.
Those are problematic, yes, but AN already said it doesn't mean we are on the verge of a civil war. He said that he put that in to show where the political fault lines are right now, so if we ever do have something to trigger it, we can know what to expect. I expect our heroic diplo/admin leader to do quite well in smoothing things over, unless we get really unlucky.
 
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Throwing a festival under a diplo/admin leader is definitely not a waste of action. Ignoring the mechanical benefits of stab and art increase, a crit, which is likely with our leader, on a festival could bring about amazing things for our society, such as incorporating the various new immigrants, promoting new forms of craftsmanship and innovation or increasing community ties.
  1. incorporation, fixing a problem we don't have to make
  2. craftsmanship, cool and all but not a necessity for us now.
  3. innovation, nice but a luxury
  4. community ties- and reaffirms the values of people celebrating. A festival action does nothing to actually address the Stallions issue because the festivals thrown there simply reaffirm their social values.
AN specifically gave the example of festivals making things worse was pillaring half-exiles. Where do you think that's most likely to happen, hmm? And how does diplo magically address an issue she might not even be aware exists? That's the problem here, the communal ties festivals affirm right now can be incredibly toxic and no amount of diplo will prevent what the King doesn't know- and why would the artisan come-king of the south know about the cultural practices of the place she's never been to and seldom hears about.

All I'm asking here Citino- is one fucking turn. I'm not saying never accept immigrants, I'm not saying our hero isn't perfect for it- all I'm asking is for us to address our existing problem with alacrity and focus before we risk potentially making more problems for ourselves.
 
One sec.

gotta vote myself.

[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)


Edit: I did this so there wasn't a tie. I'm fine with either one, but New Trails out did Grand Sac by a nanowire.
Now it is a tie.

Please Grand Sac?

We are guaranteed to do Main New Trails next turn. Same cannot be said of stability increasing actions.
 
All I'm asking here Citino- is one fucking turn. I'm not saying never accept immigrants, I'm not saying our hero isn't perfect for it- all I'm asking is for us to address our existing problem with alacrity and focus before we risk potentially making more problems for ourselves.
Which risks the hero being dead and assumes the problem will be dealt with in one action, of course.

Trails + Festival via Provinces is always an option.
 
All I'm asking here Citino- is one fucking turn. I'm not saying never accept immigrants, I'm not saying our hero isn't perfect for it- all I'm asking is for us to address our existing problem with alacrity and focus before we risk potentially making more problems for ourselves.
*sigh* Alright, I'll accept your logic for now. But I do want to pull in a lot of refugees eventually. This is either the 3 or 4th time we have done the bare minimum, even though the benefits to bringing in immigrants have been proven time and again. I could accept it with grace when we were low stability, but when we have good stability, a good leader and a way to dampen the stab issues? Ugh.
Now it is a tie.

Please Grand Sac?

We are guaranteed to do Main New Trails next turn. Same cannot be said of stability increasing actions.
? New trails is winning, according to the thread tally?
 
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Also borderline impossible if people don't take [main] new trails, so either we do that in this mid turn-turn, or we say bye bye to new province to do it.

Now it is a tie.

Please Grand Sac?

We are guaranteed to do Main New Trails next turn. Same cannot be said of stability increasing actions.
You remembering to clear cache? I've made that a habit of mine at this point.
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1222 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.6
[100] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[72] Random Admin tech upgrade
[69] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[50] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[49] Grand Sacrifice (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[19] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.
[17] Random Construction tech upgrade
[8] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)
[7] Let it be known that you have room (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[5] You have lots of room (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, chance of further effects)
[5] Study Health (-1 Econ, greater chance of new discoveries)
[3] Attrikwyn ([Good Admin, Diplo, and Martial]
[3] Free holy site expansion (+2 Mysticism)
[1] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ)
[1] Reassure the People of their safety and prosperity (+1 Stability)[/QUOTE]
[1] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)[/QUOTE]

Task: Kick
[1][Kick] The Garden

Task: Main
[1][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores

Task: Secondary
[1][Secondary] Copper Mine
[1][Secondary] Copper Mine X2
Total No. of Voters: 104
 
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