We get Policy:Infrastucture 1-2 turns out as a free switch. This way we also have the econ to pay for our rush builds, since they cost extra due to our legacy. We won't complete the Aqueduct this coming turn, but the turn after we'll still have a massive econ buffer which we can spend on the econ-expensive Extended Projects and we'll be in a great position to do so.


We spend half of it, it's recovered in 1 turn unless we get horribly unlucky. We make a "True City", it likely fixes the corruption issues (Restore Order with heroic admin), we get tech advancement, maybe even evolve Cosmopolitan Acceptance even further. The alternative is we have to spend half her life building up the econ we need to do the things we want since we lost the Baby Boom.
No we won't. With the current winning vote, we'll have 6 Econ next turn. If New Trails wins, we'll have 8. Plenty unless we go for Dam.

Moreover, I'm not at all sure it'll only take one turn to fix the issues raised, and we might only get one turn with our hero.
 
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I'm not going to wait two turns to even start.
...We'd be starting it immediately with the plan I just proposed. It'd finish either the turn after or the 3rd turn at absolute worst if we get really stupid provinces and/or shitty luck.

With the current winning vote, we'll have 6 Econ next turn.
I suppose it depends upon the costs of the Extended Projects.

@Academia Nut
Can you give us more details on how Extended Projects work? Approximate econ costs? Approximate number of [Main] actions needed? Can [Secondary] actions be used to contribute to them? How much has Rush Builders changed it?
 
It also rises our unhealthy population drastically and directly drop our ratio of cow pox vaccinated people to dangerous level.

While playing with population overcrowding during disease season, do you realize the amount of death this causes?

These migrants are coming from areas worst hit by disease and starvation, they are sick scared people. That much instability during an artisan king? Terrible context for already shaken confidence.
It's an airborne disease, it literally doesn't matter how many people we take in, we already can't isolate people away from each other enough to isolate the infection from gen. pop. In addition to the former point, the illness won't magically stick around despite everyone getting it and getting immune to it. We're insanely unlikely to be hit by the cough again for at least one stop-over turn just because of how humans gain immunity to disease.

As to our immunity to the pox, it doesn't actually reduce our ability to be immune to it. It would take time, but for the same reason the average immigrant is isolated for a short time after joining, they would also be given the inoculation. They couldn't spread it in the population proper even if they tried, even when we're completely ignoring the megaproject's stated mechanical effect of making us immune to that type of outbreak.

I already pointed out that the highest possible likely stability result is 0, from 2. That is a comparatively acceptable drop we've taken several times in the past. We can't take a crisis from taking the 2 stability hit (as we've done so before without initiating a crisis), we can't take a crisis from the disease (because an airborne bacteria that the body can produce antibodies against will cease becoming epidemic for at least one generation after it's initial infection), and while we might be hit with overcrowding from the amount of people we take in, there's not too much risk of a crisis (or at least a difficult one) from that, as it's literally as easy as adding a new settlement to counteract the sudden pop weight.
 
You're not gonna be finishing it in a single turn either way. Extended projects take more than 1 [Main] actions to complete. That means that unless you switch policies immediately and it takes the minimum possible amount you can't finish it next turn, and if you do that you're liable to be running critically low on economy.
By doing this we get 2.5 or 3 [Main] actions for provinces (3 since if everyone works on the same thing The Law is likely to double the main since there's no possible secondaries), which is almost certainly enough to complete it the turn we switch.
Not really, we have econ and Infrastructure Provinces can and will still try to generate some econ. The thing is, we need for our Queen to decisively and relatively quickly address the concerns of the North. They're the most resentful and the most misogynistic, having a woman ruler go up to bat for them and push for the construction of the most complex feats of engineering most of these people will ever see for their sake? That, more than literally anything else we could or should do- would fight both sexism, separatism, and make Ymaryn even more developed.

As far as I'm concerned, not jumping for joy and spreading the wonders of aqueducts to our northern brethren is insanity. It's just, by far, the best option we've seen to address the north's concerns. And flooding our civ with even more people that don't understand our rule and are liable to be sympathetic to the values of the Stallions is very much going to get in the way of that.

I'd be a lot less circumspect about not taking Grand Sacrifice if people at least paid lip service to returning it to Stability 2.

If we don't do trails now, I can clearly see the thread pushing to do them next turn. I don't see any sort of push for Stability happening.
tbf, the reason we're so blase about stability is restoration of order- which our Queen is perfectly built to do.

I won't say it's without risk, but a crash Main Resto+Secondary Resto would basically be enough to drag us out of -3 on it's own. Add in a Policy Restoration (and the fact that our provinces might be able to run Restos as well...) and we could bounce from -3 to +3 in a single turn.
 
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I don't really care for which plan is currently winning. Getting pretty tied of debating, honestly and would like to see lock-in soon, or at least a voting deadline.

Or discuss something else, like how fast could we really accelerate technological development of the world.

Right now, the Ymaryn has no slaves, which mean that we have some of the most expensive labor force in the world. We also farmed hills, which is very labor intensive. This is conductive to technological development because the scarcity of labor will force the Ymaryn to find labor saving devices such as watermills and windmills.

This is a good thing, assuming we can keep our civilization and its value intact.
 
We will also be absorbing the TS and the DP.
That is a long term plan... centuries off. It may never work.
HK cannot afford to declare war at this point because they are already having issue with one of the province trying to break away, and they may be forced to abandon their Law megaproject.
No... we take stupid amounts of people from the 11+ economy worth. HK can't not declare war, being the closest they take at least half that economy damage. Their 'Order Over' All mandates it. Its forcing them to attack full out or stop existing.
Massive immigration will also increase the likelihood of the ETH in conquering or ravaging the rest of the lowland.
You mean you want to eliminate the Buffer States? Meaning no one is stopping them from coming at The People directly.
That's literally the idea. The last time we absorbed a fair number of people we got a value evolution and pottery glaze. The plan is to pick up as much as we can at once, because for once, we can afford it.
This plan is attempting to annex the population of the Lowlands to the extent The People effectively become a Lowlands state. This is a plan to be at war forveer.
 
...We'd be starting it immediately with the plan I just proposed. It'd finish either the turn after or the 3rd turn at absolute worst if we get really stupid provinces and/or shitty luck.


I suppose it depends upon the costs of the Extended Projects.

@Academia Nut
Can you give us more details on how Extended Projects work? Approximate econ costs? Approximate number of [Main] actions needed? Can [Secondary] actions be used to contribute to them? How much has Rush Builders changed it?

Well that could be part of the miscommunication here, because I for one am not in favor of doing an Extended Project now. At least, probably not, depending on costs and such. It just seems likely too expensive for any potential gain. Only reason I could see doing the Dam is because we're already on Megaproject support. And note the Divine Stewards bonus of Econ and Stability is only to Megaprojects, not Extended Projects.
 
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That is a long term plan... centuries off. It may never work.

No... we take stupid amounts of people from the 11+ economy worth. HK can't not declare war, being the closest they take at least half that economy damage. Their 'Order Over' All mandates it. Its forcing them to attack full out or stop existing.

You mean you want to eliminate the Buffer States? Meaning no one is stopping them from coming at The People directly.

This plan is attempting to annex the population of the Lowlands to the extent The People effectively become a Lowlands state. This is a plan to be at war forveer.

I am just outlining the consequences as I see it.

I do not want to eliminate the buffer states to let the ETH ravage it. I think weakening any of them beyond the usual absorption rate is directly harmful to our interest.
 
[X] notgreat
AN all but stated that Study Health was a trap option. We're already basically at the highest possible tech for Study Health.
Nah just that it won't deal w/ our "immediate problems." The whooping cough isn't an immediate problem.
while the Xohyssiri have comparable leadership lifespans to you.
*sobs* Our brethren...
{M} New Province
{S} Change Policy: Restoration
{S} Aqueduct
K I ship this so long as the Aqueduct is @ Stonepen or the March. Preferably the March.
 
For all the speculation about this option offending other countries, it's surprising that there's no diplomacy hit on the action.
 
Also, I slightly prefer notgreats plan.

[X] notgreat
 
K I ship this so long as the Aqueduct is @ Stonepen or the March. Preferably the March.
Not sure we can do it in the March since they're so far away, be we definitely can hit Stonepen.

Also there's a ~30% chance that we'll trigger GG which would mean that we'd end up at positive stability in the end anyway and won't even need to use Restoration, meaning we can jump immediately into making that Aqueduct. There's also a chance that our admin hero will see the problems coming and just spontaneously make another province on her own (or just a whole province from the HK defecting to us with all their land), which would also open up the [Main] slot for something else.

So that's a plan for the worse-case scenarios. If we get lucky, we'll be able to do other things instead, plausibly even immediately making that Aqueduct due to our legacy.
It just seems likely too expensive for any potential gain
The point is that if we accept everyone we'll have so much spare econ that the cost is relatively insignificant.
 
We almost certainly cannot do an extended project for the March. Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if we could do an aqueduct anywhere but Redshore; it's the only other major population center we have.

Not sure we can do it in the March since they're so far away, be we definitely can hit Stonepen.

Also there's a ~40% chance that we'll trigger GG which would mean that we'd end up at positive stability in the end anyway and won't even need to use Restoration, meaning we can jump immediately into making that Aqueduct. There's also a chance that our admin hero will see the problems coming and just spontaneously make another province on her own (or just a whole province from the HK defecting to us with all their land), which would also open up the [Main] slot for something else.

So that's a plan for the worse-case scenarios. If we get lucky, we'll be able to do other things instead, plausibly even immediately making that Aqueduct due to our legacy.

The point is that if we accept everyone we'll have so much spare econ that the cost is relatively insignificant.

I meant if we didn't accept so many refugees; then it would probably be too expensive.
 
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@Academia Nut If we choose not to take this opportunity to build a city, how long will it take to get one naturally? Can we even get one without some sort of sudden pressure pushing people together, or would we just naturally keep on expanding? Also, do we have upgraded kilns yet?
 
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It's an airborne disease, it literally doesn't matter how many people we take in, we already can't isolate people away from each other enough to isolate the infection from gen. pop. In addition to the former point, the illness won't magically stick around despite everyone getting it and getting immune to it. We're insanely unlikely to be hit by the cough again for at least one stop-over turn just because of how humans gain immunity to disease.
Okay, the first problem I foresee is that our superior healthcare which is currently making the cough hit us less hard than our neighbors rests on the idea that we have enough shamans and gatorade and food to help all the sick people survive the symptoms. We don't exactly have an organized healthcare system, but we certainly have limits on the number of 'doctors' and I don't expect many of such doctors among the refugees. Going from one doctor in a hundred to one doctor in a thousand will definitely have knock-on effects.

The second problem I have is more pressing- taking in people with diseases from other regions when there are other highly infectious diseases in the mix is a perfect recipe for producing a hybrid strain, just like happens every damn flu season due to the modern ability to travel. Pertussis vaccine is able to function reasonably well despite the penchant the disease has for mutation, but there are varied strains of whooping cough and another go-round because of mutation is very possible.

This holds true with the fact that whooping cough is weakening infants for other diseases too- I'm not saying the immigrants are more or less healthy than the People, but the sicknesses they have would likelier be sicknesses our cough-weakened people have no resistance- and again, mixing diseases can produce hybrids which circumvent established immunities. That's just how they work.
 
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We almost certainly cannot do an extended project for the March. Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if we could do an aqueduct anywhere but Redshore; it's the only other major population center we have.



I meant if we didn't accept so many refugees.
I was under the impression that lower valleyhome was the other major pop center we had...i know there was an AN quote on our pop distribution lately, so off to the search system :p
 
I don't really care for which plan is currently winning. Getting pretty tied of debating, honestly and would like to see lock-in soon, or at least a voting deadline.

Or discuss something else, like how fast could we really accelerate technological development of the world.

Right now, the Ymaryn has no slaves, which mean that we have some of the most expensive labor force in the world. We also farmed hills, which is very labor intensive. This is conductive to technological development because the scarcity of labor will force the Ymaryn to find labor saving devices such as watermills and windmills.

This is a good thing, assuming we can keep our civilization and its value intact.
I agree that it's likely the Ymaryn will see the value in labor saving devices such as watermills and windmills, especially since the large amount of water in the form of the river (and the small irrigation channels) is likely to inspire such a conclusion.

It's also notable that our society is the most equitable one, meaning that we don't possess a habit of dismissing intelligent individuals due to their caste or enslavement. As a result, particularly smart people are put into our intellectual class, shamans, which in turn is pretty specifically dedicated to studying the world and coming up with new things.


Edit: @notgreat I'd rather do Main New Trails than the aqueduct if stability isn't an issue, tbh. A double Main New Trails would be cool but it'd be better to be on the front foot when dealing w/ the March. A good combo option is doing an Expansion Policy + Trails + secondary aqueduct, of course.

Edit 2: Redcoast is the other main population center. We can do the aqueduct anywhere there is water and a city; the March's main settlement happens to be built on a river. It will be less valuable than doing it in a major population center, but also less work and starts the settlement off better, with an efficient pattern that can be grown by simply continuing the pattern as initially laid out.
 
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it's the only other major population center we have.
We have a major population center in every province, though Valleyhome is our largest.
I meant if we didn't accept so many refugees.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it being reasonable to make the Aqueduct if we don't accept a bunch of refugees. One of the primary benefits of an Aqueduct is a boost to our available econ slots and enabling a "true city", so a massive number of refugees both gives us the economy necessary and gives us incentives to build another.

First getting a "true city" when we have a heroic admin hero seems like a good idea, as she'd be better able to deal with the problems that may arise.
but we certainly have limits on the number of 'doctors'
Good thing we're going to Mysticism 11 then. (Which means we have lots of spare Shamans available to do doctor work)

And I'm talking about the upgraded version.
It sounds like the DP got another kiln upgrade which we might be able to steal from them w/ a large refugee wave, but the action to upgrade them has gone away so it seems highly likely that we've finished the transition.
 
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