DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yes, because we lost Greater Good (the source of grand sacrifice) when it fused
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
PyroTechno
The Procrastination Pokemon
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X] [Secondary] Study Health
[X] [Secondary] Study Health x2
If we want to engage in proper paciFIST tactics, obviously rapid expansion is the way to go. One of the best ways to promote population growth is healthcare, and salt is good for food preservation. As for "The Greater Good" - the socialism thing seems to be the best of the bad apples, and it's on the bandwagon anyway
(Yeah guys lets keep taking values from the people who practice human sacrifice, what could possibly go wrong)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X] [Secondary] Study Health
[X] [Secondary] Study Health x2
If we want to engage in proper paciFIST tactics, obviously rapid expansion is the way to go. One of the best ways to promote population growth is healthcare, and salt is good for food preservation. As for "The Greater Good" - the socialism thing seems to be the best of the bad apples, and it's on the bandwagon anyway
(Yeah guys lets keep taking values from the people who practice human sacrifice, what could possibly go wrong)
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
In future i want a turn that's full on "TREES" just expand forest and study forest actions, hopefully we'll wind up with our people doing Tree Shaping and be even more elvey than we currently are.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
My headcanon is that the DP's trait is a spiritual one called something like "A Gift Given" and first evolved back when they were sacrificing people to the spirits in order to prevent their death. It's probably been mellowed out by their defeat and constant wars, however. It might be what gave them Econ from war but it's doubtful.
@pblur I'd rather just integrate the knowledge more widely tbh.
@pblur I'd rather just integrate the knowledge more widely tbh.
So, I have a proposition. Since we aren't going to get two new provinces, and thus a new province action next turn, what about we build a copper mine next turn?
This should actually cut down the time of other megaprojects significantly, and allow us to more easily do other things while working on them.
This should actually cut down the time of other megaprojects significantly, and allow us to more easily do other things while working on them.
- Location
- his hidden lair
And leave Southshore open for colonization by the HK for any longer? I'm going to firmly say no on that one.
- Location
- Panama City
Only as a main, and only if we aren't still doing a megaproject so we can combine it with Southshore. Otherwise it can wait another turn
Bleh, got woken up early by some asshole slamming on their door repeatedly. Full analysis can wait since this turn seems fairly straightforward other than Water vs Salt
Anyways! We got 3 actions worth of project progress per turn. Kicking buys ONE action. It's only beneficial in specific cases where we need exactly one action to tip over a turn.
The Garden(Don't kick)
-1 turn - Boosted chance to finish with Symphony.
-2 turns - Automatically finish. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions
The Garden(kick)
-1 turn - Boosted chance to finish with Symphony. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
-2 turns - Automatically finish. Some province support actions WILL become economy boost actions.
-2 turns - Automatically finish
Saltern(don't kick)
-1 turn - Cannot finish
-2 turns - High chance to finish. Boosted chance to finish with Symphony. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
-3 turns - Automatically finish. Some province support actions WILL become economy boost actions.
Saltern(Kick)
-1 turn - Chance to finish. Boosted chance to finish with Symphony.
-2 turns - Automatically finish Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
As such, the conclusion is that:
-Garden = Don't Kick. Theres no benefit
-Saltern = Kick. It will save us at least one turn.
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Saltern
I'd point out that if we had entered the Tax Crisis with even ONE more Stability we probably could have scored the perfect ending, as Double Main Double Kicked Law would let us use a Policy to provide literacy two turns early.
It was mentioned that we have a chunk of our shamans dedicated to remembering them, and that it involved some writing.
Probably from their eastern side. Remember they're huge. Also cotton is extremely labor intensive to process, without using slavery the economy cost is likely to be high.
Anyways! We got 3 actions worth of project progress per turn. Kicking buys ONE action. It's only beneficial in specific cases where we need exactly one action to tip over a turn.
The Garden(Don't kick)
-1 turn - Boosted chance to finish with Symphony.
-2 turns - Automatically finish. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions
The Garden(kick)
-1 turn - Boosted chance to finish with Symphony. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
-2 turns - Automatically finish. Some province support actions WILL become economy boost actions.
-2 turns - Automatically finish
Saltern(don't kick)
-1 turn - Cannot finish
-2 turns - High chance to finish. Boosted chance to finish with Symphony. Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
-3 turns - Automatically finish. Some province support actions WILL become economy boost actions.
Saltern(Kick)
-1 turn - Chance to finish. Boosted chance to finish with Symphony.
-2 turns - Automatically finish Chance of province support actions becoming economy boost actions.
As such, the conclusion is that:
-Garden = Don't Kick. Theres no benefit
-Saltern = Kick. It will save us at least one turn.
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X][Kick] Saltern
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Kicking it twice statistically only wastes the stability for a point of economy. No value in it. Save it for the next HK refugee discharge as they work out their succession dispute by surgery.
- Location
- Hell
Okay, I think I see where the problem is.
We have multiple disagreements. And they keep melding into each other.
First and easiest to unravel is what megaproject. I prefer Saltern to Garden. Reasoning is that I would prefer to do Dam before Garden. Every Megaproject still has a chance of accidents. An Accident on the Dam is more likely to affect the Garden than visa versa. If we had a guarantee of not having accidents, I wouldn't worry so much.
This leads to the second disagreement. Kicking. Saltern take 4-7 turns, Garden takes 3-6 turns. While Garden does have a chance of finishing this very turn if it does indeed only cost 3 turns, Saltern does not. Saltern also has a chance to end in 7 turns, so rushing out the gate...I don't see the need in it.
Which leads into the third disagreement. Use of Stability. I wish to spend it only in necessity. I think you as well. The problem is what do we each consider a necessity. My impression is that you see necessity is when we have a chance to grab more. I see it as a chance to lose less. For example. Say we had warning of an upcoming crisis next turn. The only way to avoid it is Megaproject L. Problem is that Megaproject L requires 3-5 turns and we have only a single turn notice. That to me would be a perfectly reasonable excuse to double main and double kick the megaproject and pay 2 Stability for it. That is why I don't consider a kick necessary for this. Because I don't see crisis if we don't kick this.
The final disagreement being what constitutes a sufficient buffer. I've seen how easily we spend Stability. I've also seen how necessary some of those have been as well. For me, it's always seems to happen in situation where when it rains, it pours. We go from one crisis almost directly into the next. Which means we have little chance to undo the damage from the instabilty. That's why I want Stability 2. So when we have to deal with both Cosmopolitan Acceptance Triggering and an internal crisis at the same time, we can easily tank both and come out shining after. You disagree. I won't presume to state why as it seems to have been mixed up in all of this.
Does this make the debate easier to parse?
Your first image brokt.
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
Can cotton be mill processed?
- Location
- Hell
Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 1130 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.8.4
[41] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[10] Dead Priests
[1] Highland Kingdom
[1] Thunder Horse (Probable Honour value)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[41][Main] Saltern
[15][Main] The Garden
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[21][Kick] Saltern
[11][Kick] The Garden
[11][Kick] Don't Kick Saltern
[1][Kick] Saltern x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[48][Secondary] Study Health
[44][Secondary] Study Health x2
[10][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore
[7][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore x2
[1][Secondary] Art Patronage
[1][Secondary] Art Patronage x2
[1][Secondary] Study Forest
Total No. of Voters: 57
Okay, there may need to be some clarification. That's 21 voting to kick Saltern, 11 specifically voting against as well as the remainder not adding it to their votes. @Academia Nut How would you parse this?
##### NetTally 1.8.4
[41] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[10] Dead Priests
[1] Highland Kingdom
[1] Thunder Horse (Probable Honour value)
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[41][Main] Saltern
[15][Main] The Garden
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[21][Kick] Saltern
[11][Kick] The Garden
[11][Kick] Don't Kick Saltern
[1][Kick] Saltern x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[48][Secondary] Study Health
[44][Secondary] Study Health x2
[10][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore
[7][Secondary] New Settlement-Southshore x2
[1][Secondary] Art Patronage
[1][Secondary] Art Patronage x2
[1][Secondary] Study Forest
Total No. of Voters: 57
Okay, there may need to be some clarification. That's 21 voting to kick Saltern, 11 specifically voting against as well as the remainder not adding it to their votes. @Academia Nut How would you parse this?
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
It would increase the chance of 1 turn finish.
- Location
- Panama City
Well, except I also prefer Saltern, I'm voting for it after all.
Also, again you are wrong in that Saltern DOES have a chance at ending this turn if we kick it.The action order is Main+kick saltern+double main province action(upgrade from single main due to Law)+Symphony bonus(whatever that is, assuming that here it's +1 action)=5 actions, right in the middle of the Saltern action spread. Granted the Garden does have a HIGHER chance of completing in one turn, but Saltern still has a chance of doing so, so why not? It's still 2 turns max, and we still get another stability point out of it.
- Location
- Hell
I'd rather not depend on that. Again I don't see it a necessity to finish the problem in one turn or that we must spend a Stability to do so when waiting could just as easily open up a different less costly assist. Work smarter not harder.Well, except I also prefer Saltern, I'm voting for it after all.
The action order is Main+kick saltern+double main province action(upgrade from single main due to Law)+Symphony bonus(whatever that is, assuming that here it's +1 action)=5 actions, right in the middle of the Saltern action spread. Granted the Garden does have a HIGHER chance of completing in one turn, but Saltern still has a chance of doing so, so why not? It's still 2 turns max, and we still get another stability point out of it.
Huh, I can honestly say the Dead Priests turning up was probably the last thing I expected to happen.
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X] [Kick] Don't Kick
I don't really see the need to spend stability to rush this since it has a pretty low chance of finishing in one turn. Plus I'm just tired of spending stability like water. Have to say, though, I'm glad we didn't take that -3 stability option last turn, even though I voted for it.
[X] Dead Priests (One compatible value: The Greater Good)
[X] [Main] Saltern
[X][Secondary] Study Health
[X][Secondary] Study Health x2
[X] [Kick] Don't Kick
I don't really see the need to spend stability to rush this since it has a pretty low chance of finishing in one turn. Plus I'm just tired of spending stability like water. Have to say, though, I'm glad we didn't take that -3 stability option last turn, even though I voted for it.
- Location
- Panama City
.....AN has confirmed that symphony in conjunction with Megaproject support will provide large bonuses to our megaprojects. It's why we flipping TOOK megaproject support.
- Location
- Hell
Doesn't address the second part which is my main point on not taking it. If our Symphony trait and Megaproject Support Policy help, Cool. Still doesn't need a kicker.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon
I'd argue its the wrong time to worry about it. We have +2 stab going into the next turn, and +3 when it finishes.
If there's a time to spend stability, this is it.
- Location
- Panama City
Yeah, the thing is I doubt there IS a less costly assist for Saltern, given that it's mainly seaside engineering. Better boats maybe, but that's -2 econ. Another thing would be copper tools, but unless we main that it's -3 econ to set up the mine.
Better to kick it when we can afford the stability.
pblur
Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn
- Location
- Lawrence's Wagon