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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
No one has ever looked at where they are from overhead. Gliders were retconjurated out of existence. For all we know, their islands could just be disguised from below/to the sides, and raised about half a mile into the air.
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They also could be on the ocean floor now.
 
Cariyaga said:
Gliders were retconjurated out of existence
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I can never remember, were gliders 'eaten by a grue' retconned or 'we decided this never made any sense to begin with so it never happened' retconned? If just the former, then gliders may have been used to search for Whirlpool and nowadays they just don't remember actually doing it, much like how henge protocols still exist but no one understands why anymore.
 
Cariyaga said:
No one has ever looked at where they are from overhead. Gliders were retconjurated out of existence. For all we know, their islands could just be disguised from below/to the sides, and raised about half a mile into the air.
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It might be worth making an estimate of the size of Whirlpool, and roughly calculating the size of the BOOM that would occur from making a sphere of vacuum that size. If it is loud, would it be loud enough that people should have heard it when they disappeared?
 
KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
It might be worth making an estimate of the size of Whirlpool, and roughly calculating the size of the BOOM that would occur from making a sphere of vacuum that size. If it is loud, would it be loud enough that people should have heard it when they disappeared?
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Storage scrolls don't make booms when they store or unstore things, right? I think they must compensate for it somehow to avoid the sudden vacuum or shockwave problem. Maybe storage seals that are 'empty' are full of air (that they absorb slowly to get in the first place) that they swap with an object when they store it. That'd probably be the easiest way, but I can think of others.

PurposefulZephyr said:
That is an idea that won't bring ninja equivalent to men-in-black onto us, but:
-Sealing failures we'll encounter on our own will be dangerous enough. We are literally a dice roll away from dying every time that happens.
That could be at least partly avoided by simply asking other sealmasters for accurate documentation of failed attempts and eye-witness reports. Far less information than seeing it ourselves (especially considering memetic and sensory effects), but also far safer.
-As Kagome himself said - replicating sealing failures is a bad idea.

Mostly because you never know where it all went wrong. And the possibility space for effects is pretty much infinitely massive.
So what you'll be getting is mostly unknown input and random output.
EDIT: Also, other people's seals are done in a slightly different manner, based on minute differences in understanding of sealing. That's why only Iron Nerve users can fully copy other's seals (and even then they can't infuse it without B̵͍AD̻̜ͮ̈́ T̿H̆̉͡I̛̹̣ͤ̔NGS͓̣). So add that to unknown input.

And this will bring them onto our doorstep, which is less fun (and more FUN).
-We don't know anything about how Watchers look upon those who want to delve into sealing failures, for any reason. Or about valuing their secrecy. Or rules of interference with sealsmiths.
-This goes double to joining them. For all we know, all of them must shave their hair. And be celibate for rest of their lives. And not interact with any non-Watcher outside of work, ever.
We only know they are immensely powerful and equally secretive. That's not a danger someone who's not a soc-spec should delve into.
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Yes, replicating sealing failures is a bad idea. I do strongly suspect that a lot of what is known about sealing came from learning from things that sealing failures did, though. Getting documentation on other people's sealing failures might be a good idea. If nothing else, knowing about more kinds of failures would enable the creation of more robust safety procedures for handling them, especially rare failure modes that don't show up often. We could publish the resulting list of safety procedures as a book and freely give it to all the villages. "They're going to experiment with seals no matter what we do; let's help them not end the world while they're doing it."

As for the Watchers, the thing that makes the most sense to my thinking is that the organization is made up of regular seal masters who mostly go about their normal lives but keep an eye out for sealing-related threats to humanity and put on their Watcher hats as necessity arises to address those threats. They're probably secret because not all of the Kages would be pleased to know that ninja of different villages are conspiring together to work on anything, even if that anything is 'not letting idiots destroy the world'.
 
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Inferno Vulpix said:
I can never remember, were gliders 'eaten by a grue' retconned or 'we decided this never made any sense to begin with so it never happened' retconned? If just the former, then gliders may have been used to search for Whirlpool and nowadays they just don't remember actually doing it, much like how henge protocols still exist but no one understands why anymore.
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The "Kagome's Journal Entry" interlude we got seems to suggest they were grue'd as well at some point, but I'm not sure how reliable this is.

KaGoGoGadgetMe said:
It might be worth making an estimate of the size of Whirlpool, and roughly calculating the size of the BOOM that would occur from making a sphere of vacuum that size. If it is loud, would it be loud enough that people should have heard it when they disappeared?
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It's also possible they're doing some sort of local space-time fuckery. The island could still be there, just that space is folded around it like some ridiculous origami.

TaliesinSkye said:
Storage scrolls don't make booms when they store or unstore things, right?
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They do from what I recall, it's just not super noticeable usually.

Although I think Implosion Seals are supposed to use this vacuum to do their "rips seal after activation." thing.

(Which begs the question of why Kagome said he had small 0.5 meter radius Implosion Seals, since this shouldn't produce more vacuum than a regular storage seal would. I dunno. Implosion Seals are a headache. )
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Yeah. replicating sealing failures is a bad idea. I do strongly suspect that a lot of what is known about sealing came from learning from things that sealing failures did, though. Getting documentation on other people's sealing failures might be a good idea. If nothing else, knowing about more kinds of failures would enable the creation of more robust safety procedures for handling them, especially rare failure modes that don't show up often.
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There are other venues of knowledge, however.
From the Village Hidden in the Mountains, we've seen local seal designs derived from the Summoning Scroll, which was made by someone of a far higher level than known mortal sealmasters (being indestructable and other functions).
And there are venues where sealmasters went in and discovered things from pretty much scratch (well... a given value of from scratch):
eaglejarl said:
Kagome rolled his eyes. "The Sage was a mednin and Dummy was a technique hacker," he said, as if that were the most obvious thing ever. "Neither of them knew squat about sealing except that it was dangerous. They gathered up a few sealmasters, put them together a long way away from Leaf, and told them to have at it. That was Whirlpool—a big R&D station.
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But in general, I agree- it's good to know more about those failures. Failures that can be defended against, anyway. Hard to defend against "two of your loved ones will experience a severe case of turning into dust".
TaliesinSkye said:
As for the Watchers, the thing that makes the most sense to my thinking is that the organization is made up of regular seal masters who mostly go about their normal lives but keep an eye out for sealing-related threats to humanity and put on their Watcher hats as necessity arises to address threats. They're probably secret because not all of the Kages would be pleased to know that ninja of different villages are conspiring together to work on anything, even if that anything is 'not letting idiots destroy the world'.
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Another theory is that they are survivors of Whirlpool, vowing to stop another group from destroying their own homes, if not the world.
That would make them far less pleasant to deal with, considering that they would have collective Kagome-grade PTSD, and deep sealing-phobia.
 
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OliWhail said:
Are you sure that isn't supposed to be 5...?
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eaglejarl said:
"Twenty meters, ten meters, half a meter," Kagome said, handing the bags over one by one. "A hundred in each." Fidget, fidget. "You, uh, you can keep the extras."

Jiraiya opened the twenty-meter bag and looked in. A wealth of heavy wooden disks stared back at him. Each one had a seal on one side and the number '20' on the other.

"The half-meter ones are good if the stinkers get up close," Kagome explained. "Probably won't kill 'em, but it gives 'em a good shove so they're offbalance and you can squish 'em. The disks are heavy so you can throw 'em. Boom, squish. Well, really more schlurp, squish. Gets the job done."
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Of course, I've been @faflec -ed
 
OliWhail said:
Dammit @eaglejarl
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I mean it could be something like "Storage seals store the stuff on top of them, while implosion seals store all the air around them so there's more of a pull from the vacuum created."

or "implosion seals do this more violently than storage seals do, somehow, because magic"

Am not a physicist/materials scientist so I'm not even sure if thats an issue, just pointing out that its curious.
 
PurposefulZephyr said:
From the Village Hidden in the Mountains, we've seen local seal designs derived from the Summoning Scroll, which was made by someone of a far higher level than known mortal sealmasters (being indestructable and other functions).
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If memory serves, the sealmasters of Hidden Mountain derived their sealing tradition not from their summoning scroll, but from the lock seal around it.
 
OliWhail said:
Dammit @eaglejarl


From the Lock Seal that was keeping the Scroll closed, just FYI
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What did I do that you should curse me to the everlasting fires...?


Cariyaga said:
g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚ were retconjurated out of existence.
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Say what now?

Inferno Vulpix said:
I can never remember, were g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚ 'eaten by a grue' retconned or 'we decided this never made any sense to begin with so it never happened' retconned? If just the former, then g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚ may have been used to search for Whirlpool and nowadays they just don't remember actually doing it, much like how henge protocols still exist but no one understands why anymore.
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I have no idea what you guys are talking about. Can you check your keyboard? I think it's malfunctioning.

Apropos of nothing, there was an interlude containing one of Kagome's journal entries:

eaglejarl said:
Oh, yeah. We had another shift—h͗̃̈̚҉̡̛̜͈̮̙͉͚̦̟͍͉͚͓̘́͠ͅe̴̴̸̡̺̮̹͖͖͚͉̞̥̣͎̟̪͌͊̒̄̃̽̌̚̚n̽ͫͥ̋̀̓͂̇͂ͮͥͦ͝͞҉̯̖̮͡ͅğ̶̐̂̏͂ͫ҉̴̪̭̺͉̯̘̦̫̱͔͙͇͖̮͉̘͕͉̹e̶̲̜̭̺̖̖̜̼͊ͪ̈ͬ̈́ͬ̽̇̚͝ͅ is gone. No one remembers it, of course, anymore than they remember the anthrazi, or that watermelon used to be sour, or there was another color beyond red, or that Wind used to have g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚. Idiots. How do you forget that you used to be able to fly?! I mean, I still remember being able to become a chakra eagle—I should, I sure spent enough time practicing! That shifted out a long time ago, though. And sure, all of the g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚ disappeared and every reference book that had mentioned them turned blank and all the g̷̢̨̬̺̹̼͔͕̰͕̜̜̖͈͔͕̽̈̔̔̉̄͡l͛̀̍̒̚̕͏̵̠̣͉̭̗̮̬̣̬ͅȋ̡͇̲̦̬͔͉̬̺̱̬̥͉̠͎ͪͨͫͥ͋̋ͥ͑̃̆ͮͦͪ̏ͯ͌͜͡d̵̫͇̮̰̎̄̓̈̀̽̌ͦ̓̈́́̕e̢̩̤̻͇͐̓̾ͣ̾̅̇͂̄͑̌́͑̿͟r̓̑̇͒̍̐̏͆̆̑̓̍̿ͦ̂̽̚͘͏̙̼̝͇̞̰̖s̨̞̗͚̞̜̯̰̯̙̘̉ͨ̈ͯ̊̉͆̃͑͛̓̀̃̈́̚ makers and pilots thought that they were simply idiots who had never done anything with their lives and that's why they were destitute.
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TaliesinSkye said:
Getting documentation on other people's sealing failures might be a good idea.
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Ask and ye shall receive: Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest | Page 3039
 
OliWhail said:
From the Lock Seal that was keeping the Scroll closed, just FYI
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Inferno Vulpix said:
If memory serves, the sealmasters of Hidden Mountain derived their sealing tradition not from their summoning scroll, but from the lock seal around it.
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Let me check...
eaglejarl said:
Keiko bowed deeply. "Honored elders," she said. "I have not yet attempted to open the scroll. It seemed a task that should happen in front of all of you. A task for which I should speak to the Aida that I might do it in a way that is respectful of your customs."

Aida opened her mouth to say something that would undoubtedly be vitriolic, but Yoshida cut her off. "Let me see that," she said. "I can attest to whether it's the true scroll."

She stepped forward and took the scroll from Keiko, giving it a quick but professional examination. "Yes," she said. "This is the true scroll. The seal of summoning is unmistakable." She tapped her finger on the seal that covered the ribbon.

"Give me that," Kagome said, snatching the scroll from her.
dice said:
Kagome, Sealcraft:
?d100 + 1d100 (circumstance bonus: prior research of local sealing): 997

Seal that was made several hundred years ago and lacks the advantages of modern sealing techniques:
?d100: 710
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Yoshida's eyes went wide and fury poured across her face. "How dare you?!" she said. "How dare you—"

"You idiot," Kagome said, not looking up from his examination. "This is a locking seal, and a primitive one. A monkey with a pointy stick could get it open in twenty minutes." He plopped down on the ground and rummaged in his pack for supplies, muttering to himself and oblivious to everything around him.
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Yeah, you are right. They even thought it was the real scroll, so no chance of them using the original.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Those were excellent and terrifying, but I'm thinking of something systematic. A huge book of sealing failures from which we can look for patterns, learn things, and develop the best and most comprehensive set of safety procedures for sealing ever made.
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Tell Kagome you'd like to do this and just write down everything he screams for the next three days straight.
 
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It's been stated that the type of sealing failure depends in part on how esoteric a seal you're creating; storage seals produce less... dangerous (for a given value of dangerous) sealing failures than others.
 
Cariyaga said:
It's been stated that the type of sealing failure depends in part on how esoteric a seal you're creating; storage seals produce less... dangerous (for a given value of dangerous) sealing failures than others.
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I wonder how much of that is because storage seals are simply easier to make (and thus would produce fewer sealing failures) relative to more esoteric seals?
 
Cariyaga said:
It's been stated that the type of sealing failure depends in part on how esoteric a seal you're creating; storage seals produce less... dangerous (for a given value of dangerous) sealing failures than others.
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???

Da Rules said:

  • Infusing a seal is the process of pushing chakra into a blank in order to turn it into a seal. This is an extremely risky proposition, as the effects of a failed infusion are unpredictable and almost always dangerous. The type and magnitude of the seal's power have nothing to do with the nature of the failure, which is part of what scares people so much about infusion failures. You could fail infusion on a Hiraishin seal and all that happens is a puff of stinky smoke, but then you fail infusion on a basic storage seal and everything within 50' turns into mucus.
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Cariyaga said:
That's something we could investigate.
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Just because it's something we could investigate doesn't mean that it's something we should investigate. Because honestly, the only way I can think of for us to check this is by getting people to deliberately cause seal failures while making storage seals. Which is dumb.

Edit: Or what MMKII said.
 
Cariyaga said:
It's been stated that the type of sealing failure depends in part on how esoteric a seal you're creating; storage seals produce less... dangerous (for a given value of dangerous) sealing failures than others.
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Curious, I'd expect dimensional manipulation to be more dangerous than just making explosions or whatever.

MMKII said:
Tell Kagome you'd like to do this and just write down everything he screams for the next three days straight.
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That'd be a good start, but it'd be nice to gather failure reports from all the sealmasters in the Elemental Nations, and offer them the completed Recommended Safety Procedures manual in exchange.
 
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