How about, "If someone calls us on conflicting details, blow it off or deflect or admit, 'maybe I did say that' and move on. The important thing is not to get flustered about it or act embarrassed about being caught in a contradiction."
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
How about, "If someone calls us on conflicting details, blow it off or deflect or admit, 'maybe I did say that' and move on. The important thing is not to get flustered about it or act embarrassed about being caught in a contradiction."
- Location
- Yes.
That seems reasonable, minus the "admit it" part.
So I don't know how the GMs will receive this response, but I do think it actually works well as Hazou (with a high Deception skill rank) explaining how it works to his two siblings with low Deception.
Of course, of course Keiko starts off by thinking that the key here is to construct an airtight, internally consistent story that fits all the facts and doesn't contradict anything we or Jiraiya has said. And Hazou is like, "Nah, sis please. Let me tell you how it really works."
Everybody lies. What people care about is that what you're telling them feels true on an emotional level, that it takes them on a journey where they can buy into the feelings you're trying to evoke and empathize with what you're saying. Give them that and no one will care if you contradict yourself in front of them, because they assumed you were bullshitting on the details anyway.
Of course, of course Keiko starts off by thinking that the key here is to construct an airtight, internally consistent story that fits all the facts and doesn't contradict anything we or Jiraiya has said. And Hazou is like, "Nah, sis please. Let me tell you how it really works."
Everybody lies. What people care about is that what you're telling them feels true on an emotional level, that it takes them on a journey where they can buy into the feelings you're trying to evoke and empathize with what you're saying. Give them that and no one will care if you contradict yourself in front of them, because they assumed you were bullshitting on the details anyway.
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- Yes.
So basically...feels over reals?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I mean, yeah? Propaganda works regardless of whether you're aware of it or not.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I just had a thought.
What if we help Jiraiya and Ren push for a missing nin exchange?
Basically, outline a treaty between Mist and Leaf as such: In exception of general prohibitions against sheltering missing nin, the nations agree to allow the other to shelter the others' missing nin freely -- at the prerogative of Mist and Leaf leadership, of course.
This would effectively enforce Leaf's ideology on Mist without doing so directly.
What if we help Jiraiya and Ren push for a missing nin exchange?
Basically, outline a treaty between Mist and Leaf as such: In exception of general prohibitions against sheltering missing nin, the nations agree to allow the other to shelter the others' missing nin freely -- at the prerogative of Mist and Leaf leadership, of course.
This would effectively enforce Leaf's ideology on Mist without doing so directly.
- Location
- Yes.
It would also lead to Ren trying to get a bunch of Leaf missing-nin onto their side in order to score points. Like, say, Uchiha Itachi.
I'm not -screaming in Kagome- about it, but I would need to see some really strong pros for why this would benefit us, and why it would work as well.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
That's exactly why she would go for it, yes. Ideally, we get Orochimaru back on Leaf's side, at least tentatively, before then.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
@Briefvoice, I can't help but note that several important bits from the previous plan ended up not making in into the update. Most importantly, Keiko did not tell about her conversation with Anna, and we didn't get an opportunity to cast Anna's behaviour into doubt, nor suggest the idea of psychological counter-attacks. Perhaps it should be edited in?
I took from the latest update that Hazou had a much more positive view of Team Downfall than the players do and is not going to cooperate in attempting to sow doubt on them. I don't want to fight the tide if the QMs aren't going for something.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I disagree. Without putting too fine a point on it, last update was a consequence of eaglejarl's lack of time and energy by his own words.
e: I would at least appreciate asking Keiko about Anna's conversation.
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zap lunch
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You have to wonder: why the fuck do I want the other village to harbor my traitors?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Other villages? No idea.
Ours? Well, it's a way to bind tighter to each others' villages. Basically, it's a subtle/not-so-subtle push for the "diplo-annex Mist" route.
And they want to go along with it because of outliers like Itachi.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Alternatively, Keiko successfully diverted the conversation away from the topic she felt awkward about, not even considering the possibility of deception because of the topic's nature and her own self-depreciating mindset.
The enemy team, all jokes about its name aside, is not stupid. They learned about Old Lizardbreath, somehow, and they got Noburi to breach OpSec. If we assume that this interaction was, in fact, an attempt at manipulation, what is likely to be their main target? Keiko — her conversation with Anna was the most irregular of the three. Letting her avoid this topic and internalize that it was her fault Anna turned on her would be playing right into their hands.
I'm not comfortable with doing that just because Hazou has some kind of "view"; we have the power to override him.
I would suggest copying the entire first section from the previous plan sans the bit about Shin's challenge, but we definitely need to convey that Anna might be lying.
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- Location
- Potato land
I'd like to point out that Anna's behaviour is consistent with what we've seen of her in Team Downfall's interlude. In fact, their whole team's behaviour is, which does strongly suggest that they're not manipulating us here.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Not very strongly. It may be consistent, though I call into question the viability of making strong guesses regarding other dangerous Chuunin candidates based on a glimpse of one of their inter-team discussions, but it was too easy, too open. Imagine Anna who would feel extremely guilty upon realizing she betrayed Keiko first. What could she do?
- Call Keiko a liar, attempt to rationalize the guilt away.
- Discuss it with her in-depth, apologize to her when convinced, cry when alone.
- Discuss it with her in-depth, start crying when convinced.
- Fold immediately, start crying, let Keiko leave.
- Fold immediately, start crying, make Keiko watch.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Perfect! We'll pretend we're completely nuts and have no idea what we're doing! No one will suspect a thing, BECAUSE IT'S TRUE!
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- Potato land
I get that, but given what we've seen of Anna, I think her improvising a way to manipulate Keiko on the spot - she didn't know the reason Keiko rejected her, and so couldn't have prepared a reaction - seems unlikely. During the interlude, she gave off the impression of still feeling genuinely hurt by Keiko's rejection. Having an emotional stake in a situation like that makes manipulation a lot harder. Keep in mind, also, that Team Downfall don't know about Keiko's problems in detail, and in principle, they have no way of predicting how she'd react. As far as Anna knows, Keiko could react with pity and disgust, rather than self-recrimination.
If anything, it's Kiri who is most likely to have tried something. She honestly doesn't seem to care much for Noburi, so trying to bait him into leaking information is something she'd be more likely to consider and plan, especially given their relationship. If anything, if Anna were trying to manipulate Keiko, I'd expect her to act like Kiri.
Shin doesn't know Hazou too well, so he has no real leverage to get anything done. Probably why he stuck to relatively safe topics, while trying to sound out how Hazou's actual motivation for defecting.
zap lunch
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Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Her plan didn't have to be that precise. Who is to say Team Downfall doesn't use conversational flowcharts, as we did? She may have memorised a list of manipulation strategies fine-tuned for several of Keiko's likely behaviours, then figured out which one applied the best, and used it. "Keiko claims it wasn't her fault" is not that hard to come up with.
Regarding emotional stake and knowledge of Keiko's personality: It was implied Anna lead an extensive bullying campaign against her. She is likely to have practice with manipulating Keiko, hurt she is or not, and she would have a pretty good idea regarding Keiko's issues upon departure.
On top of that, her team already demonstrated either good information-analysis or good information-gathering skills, and they decided to target us since before the current event. They should have had plenty of time to improve and adjust their understandings of our personalities.
I wouldn't say that they certainly know everything about us, but assuming that the best they could come up with is Kiri needling Noburi into a fortunate OpSec breach feels like underestimating them.
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- Location
- Potato land
Again, I'd agree with a lot of this if the interlude hadn't contradicted it preemptively. Anna, in fact, does not understand Keiko's issues at all. Which isn't so surprising, bullies often don't, which is also why a lot of them don't even think of themselves as bullies.
The interlude ends with Team Downfall deciding to talk to us, with Anna actively opposed to the idea. What happens in the recent update seems to directly follow from that. And if they didn't know back then, having presumably done their info gathering before the exam even began, why would they make a breakthrough in the 36 hours between events? How would they even learn the specifics of Keiko's issues? It doesn't sound like anyone in Mist knew, maybe aside from Ami.
I don't feel like I'm underestimating them, really. They're relatively smart, but still just genin without significant resources or contacts. Even smart people can't do much without reliable information to base their conclusions on.