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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Lailoken said:
Only because they don't know the full context of Kakara having absolutely zero indication that multiforming interferes with the spirit bomb, and strong evidence against, which would mean that she was shirking her duty over not only paranoid, but outright delusional speculation.
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We have zero evidence in either direction, and Goku did not use Multiform, which, for the sake of replication, is a factor worth replicating because we have no clue whether it matters.

Cargo-cultish imitation of every single detail because we do not know which one is important is annoying, but, well.

What "strong evidence" besides "It would be convenient for us if it did not interfere" do we have?
 
ctulhuslp said:
We have zero evidence in either direction, and Goku did not use Multiform, which, for the sake of replication, is a factor worth replicating because we have no clue whether it matters.

Cargo-cultish imitation of every single detail because we do not know which one is important is annoying, but, well.

What "strong evidence" besides "It would be convenient for us if it did not interfere" do we have?
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We learnt from Gohan and did the really important "be the world" bit - the bit that Multiform would theoretically be interfering with - as a Multiform clone.

On a broader note, I love planning around unlikely possibilities. I am all about shadowruns, and will happily vote to check for assassins before we go to sleep each night on the offchance that there might be one, on one condition: that it doesn't interfere with other stuff. If it's purely an extra little bit of paranoia, that's great! If the concern had been "it might only work with one eye open" I'd have voted for that, because it doesn't affect anything else, so we might as well. But here, choosing not to send off a GO clone would be a huge deal, and is likely to determine how many of the other Royals survive the fight - this shadowrun was not just unsupported, but actively detrimental to our other actions and plans, and that's unacceptable.

As an example, in the previous update I created a write-in to warn the others about possible Ki absorption and to be on the lookout for it, because that was a valid implication of what the dragon had said. But we didn't say "only go melee", because that would have been compromising our main plan on a shaky maybe. (The dragon was kind enough to let us know we were barking up the wrong alley, and so it didn't come to anything, but the point remains.)

EDIT: Oh, and obviously this works both ways - not taking extra actions on the basis of an unsupported shadowrun is just as bad.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
They are not kids, they can handle themselves.

I think not trusting adults to do their duty would hurt them, in a way, more than dying to give us time. They are sayans, and royal ones, driven by both duty and pride.
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If they didn't want a kid bailing them out of a jam, they wouldn't have brought a kid along to the fight in the first place.

They planned to hit the dragon four-on-one. Then we got knocked out of the fight and they had to fight three-on-one. They were doing surprisingly well, and managed to hurt the dragon, but they're running out of steam and may not be able to hang on while we charge a big attack.

How exactly is it distrusting or disrespecting them to join the battle we were already fighting in, while simultaneously charging up the big attack?

Just telling them that we did not trust them to not die while we were puttering around with the Spirit Bomb, given that we are a kid, would be a hell of an insult I imagine: both via telling them we are of such a low opinion about their skills and because we presume that they are so pathetic as to care, even for a moment, more about death than about winning the battle of extinction.
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Uh... the dragon is in fact mauling them pretty badly. Assuming that our help would buy them some more time to fight effectively isn't a matter of disrespecting them, it's a matter of the dragon being big. Especially since it's not like we're compromising our "win the battle of extinction" plan by spinning off a multiform clone to help them out.

I mean hell, we discussed literally this exact plan among ourselves in the pages prior to the dragon's arrival, several times. If Kakara didn't bring it up around the other royals, it's probably mostly because she didn't expect any of them to believe her when she said she could rediscover the Spirit Bomb in the first place.

I mean, Yammar would likely think real hard about punching us if we were to tell him such a thing. If he is a true Vegeta...
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I don't think even Yammar carries the curse of Vegeta-esque obstinacy that far. He's less of a Vegeta and more of a Tywin Lannister, really. Can you imagine Tywin Lannister getting mad because one of his kids showed up to help him out with an army, while simultaneously readying a plan to put down the enemy once and for all? As opposed to just telling him to 'hang on while I prepare my plan?'

And Vegeta was basically the ONLY person in DBZ who took 'saiyan pride' to such absurd levels. Even by saiyan full-blood standards he was a nut, and we are all of us hybrids.

Lailoken said:
Ironically, it probably wouldn't have been an issue if it had never been added to the stock vote. Kakara the character is smart enough to do something that obvious on her own initiative and it was only it being made an explicit vote option which turned voting for the stock option into an implicit condemnation of it.
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It's a bit problematic because Poptart still presents us with plans of the form "Do A, B, C, or D," and the preferred answer is often "use Multiform to do A and B at the same time!"

It was also a problem with failure to use approval voting. A ton of people voted for the 'bare' option, AND NO OTHERS, early in the thread, which created considerable momentum against any and all alternate plans. Even after the problem with this became clear, we had the issue that people still weren't willing to vote for multiple plans like "Imma vote 'bare' OR 'distraction ragemonkey' BUT NOT 'ragemonkey plus sorcerors' "

If the intent of approval voting had been preserved, this wouldn't have been an issue, because there would likely have been a clear consensus winner in the form of "ragemonkey but no sorcerors" that most of the thread could get behind, except for a minority who are specifically afraid of Multiform screwing up the Spirit Bomb.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
If the concern had been "it might only work with one eye open" I'd have voted for that, because it doesn't affect anything else
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Actually given that we're fighting a psychic and since we can't sense psychic power, we're completely dependent upon our sight to spot any thrown objects that would distract us from the spirit bomb. :p
 
Quest said:
Actually given that we're fighting a psychic and since we can't sense psychic power, we're completely dependent upon our sight to spot any thrown objects that would distract us from the spirit bomb. :p
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He does still have a PL of 900 million, but I could probably have picked a better example - having one eye closed would actually be an impediment in a fight. Pouting the whole time, maybe?
 
Why don't we pick a more constructive topic of discussion? Like, what is the plan if we fail the genki dama research roll?

We have both an oozaru and saiyan body in the field, which is what we had discussed we could do since we learned about the dragon. As I see it, we have two ways to take advantage of this. We could either fight as FPSS (PL 1.125) with Oozaru artillery (PL 0.75 with kikoho at 0.9) OR we could have one of their clones give their energy to the other. The reason we were told not to do so was because the resulting PL would be of 1.875 which is SS2 levels and thus detectable BUT we can control our super saiyan boost so that it gives lower than maximum. If we set it at around half boost (0.375) then we could transfer all the oozaru energy to the saiyan body, leaving us at 1.5 (the same power as GO) but without the body penalties, which would leave us less tough but a lot faster than both the dragon or GO. We could also keep the boost a bit higher than that as long as it is below SS2 and it doesn't break the wards (which would make us the strongest saiyan is Garenhul again). The risk, of course, is our body exploding from the sudden power up but it would give us a lot of speed advantage on the dragon and would let us see if it has to track us to debuff us.
 
Bakkasama said:
Why don't we pick a more constructive topic of discussion? Like, what is the plan if we fail the genki dama research roll?

We have both an oozaru and saiyan body in the field, which is what we had discussed we could do since we learned about the dragon. As I see it, we have two ways to take advantage of this. We could either fight as FPSS (PL 1.125) with Oozaru artillery (PL 0.75 with kikoho at 0.9) OR we could have one of their clones give their energy to the other. The reason we were told not to do so was because the resulting PL would be of 1.875 which is SS2 levels and thus detectable BUT we can control our super saiyan boost so that it gives lower than maximum. If we set it at around half boost (0.375) then we could transfer all the oozaru energy to the saiyan body, leaving us at 1.5 (the same power as GO) but without the body penalties, which would leave us less tough but a lot faster than both the dragon or GO. We could also keep the boost a bit higher than that as long as it is below SS2 and it doesn't break the wards (which would make us the strongest saiyan is Garenhul again). The risk, of course, is our body exploding from the sudden power up but it would give us a lot of speed advantage on the dragon and would let us see if it has to track us to debuff us.
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I got the general impression that if the Spirit bomb roll fails, than we will probably cease to be able to contribute materially, or will switch over to a leadership position. Our power level would likely plummet, and fainting is reasonably possible.
 
Jirachi47 said:
I got the general impression that if the Spirit bomb roll fails, than we will probably cease to be able to contribute materially, or will switch over to a leadership position. Our power level would likely plummet, and fainting is reasonably possible.
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I don't think so? We were blissed out after the previous training, but I'd imagine we'd be able to power through that due to the angry dragon. We definitely become the least important fighter though, simply due to our comparative lack of training. It would probably come down to Yammar tanking as best he can, with Grandma firing off Tabe-ified kikohos and and Dad maybe breaking out the Kaio-Ken, while they all inhale Senzu beans.

Like, we're not a pushover, but we put our efforts into a gamble while they all went for less rewarding sure things - if our gamble fails, we're just not the defining factor.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
I don't think so? We were blissed out after the previous training, but I'd imagine we'd be able to power through that due to the angry dragon. We definitely become the least important fighter though, simply due to our comparative lack of training. It would probably come down to Yammar tanking as best he can, with Grandma firing off Tabe-ified kikohos and and Dad maybe breaking out the Kaio-Ken, while they all inhale Senzu beans.

Like, we're not a pushover, but we put our efforts into a gamble while they all went for less rewarding sure things - if our gamble fails, we're just not the defining factor.
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We still have the clone power sharing gamble. It would let us fight at a power level in the range of GO but in our base body so no speed penalties. That and our flying ability should make us good at distracting Dazarel. If we don't explode.

We just have to regulate our SS boost so we don't reach SS2 levels of power.
 
Bakkasama said:
We still have the clone power sharing gamble. It would let us fight at a power level in the range of GO but in our base body so no speed penalties. That and our flying ability should make us good at distracting Dazarel. If we don't explode.

We just have to regulate our SS boost so we don't reach SS2 levels of power.
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Oh geeze, I'd forgotten about that. Yes, you're right, that's an option.
 
Good reason not to will power push. Will power pushing as a GO would likely result in SS2 power levels.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Oh geeze, I'd forgotten about that. Yes, you're right, that's an option.
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I just like the idea of regulating our PL so that we fight at, I don't know, 1.7 billion and we are the strongest saiyan in Garenhuld again. Get the "push the saiyan race farther" reputation once more and make multiform a relevant technique.

I mean, I rather the genkidama works because of all the fame we would get but something like that would be a nice consolation price.

fictionfan said:
Good reason not to will power push. Will power pushing as a GO would likely result in SS2 power levels.
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Well, dad has been training Kaioken as a last resort so the others are prepared just in case we do need to push beyond that.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
It would be a bit alarming, but I very much doubt the Lords aren't allowed to use Willpower pushes. Half of the problem of an SSJ2 is that the PL increase is permanent. (The other half is, of course, the overwhelming rage.)
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Which reminds me something I have mentioned before, about why Tabe's trick has me so excited. It's principle is that it empties the tank faster to make up for the smaller nozzle but what if you use a smaller nozzle on purpose? We could fight in our base at a PL of, say, 30 million, use Tabe's trick to perform at 100 million and be ok stamina wise because we have a 375 million worth tank. Using it for the increase that Tabe had when he fought us would still tired us really fast but if we use smaller increases and a lower power level than our maximum, it should effectively become a ki hiding technique.

It doesn't sound that great but it means that we could face high level threats (at the galaxy level, not saiyan level) with ease yet still read as normal for those looking from space into the planet. Not to mention its use in large scale battles to throw the enemy off guard by performing at a higher level than their scooters say we do.
 
Bakkasama said:
Which reminds me something I have mentioned before, about why Tabe's trick has me so excited. It's principle is that it empties the tank faster to make up for the smaller nozzle but what if you use a smaller nozzle on purpose? We could fight in our base at a PL of, say, 30 million, use Tabe's trick to perform at 100 million and be ok stamina wise because we have a 375 million worth tank. Using it for the increase that Tabe had when he fought us would still tired us really fast but if we use smaller increases and a lower power level than our maximum, it should effectively become a ki hiding technique.

It doesn't sound that great but it means that we could face high level threats (at the galaxy level, not saiyan level) with ease yet still read as normal for those looking from space into the planet. Not to mention its use in large scale battles to throw the enemy off guard by performing at a higher level than their scooters say we do.
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...So you're saying that we could run around with a PL of a few million like we showed the scouts, and use Tabe's trick to perform as if we were using a higher base, but we'd still show up to ki sensors - and presumably scouters - as if we were only a few million?

That's a brilliant idea. We could fight at a level where the attacks barely affect us, but just move slowly enough and hit lightly enough to seem like we're actually at that lower level. I think it might sadly be a little late in the year to train for it (with the exception of Grandma, Tabe etc. who already know the trick and we should absolutely mention this to) but fights are often decided by "champions" here - just throw Grandma in as a ringer pretending to be just that skilled/durable.

It also makes the question of whether we allow the knowledge of how to perform Tabe's trick spread to non-Royals who aren't Tabe even more pressing, but that's another matter.

Oh, I suppose we should check with Poptart regarding how stamina works with regard to using up that PL pool, though it's still a useful trick even if we'd get tired twice as fast. @PoptartProdigy, is Bakkasama's idea feasible?
 
Deathbybunnies said:
...So you're saying that we could run around with a PL of a few million like we showed the scouts, and use Tabe's trick to perform as if we were using a higher base, but we'd still show up to ki sensors - and presumably scouters - as if we were only a few million?

That's a brilliant idea. We could fight at a level where the attacks barely affect us, but just move slowly enough and hit lightly enough to seem like we're actually at that lower level. I think it might sadly be a little late in the year to train for it (with the exception of Grandma, Tabe etc. who already know the trick and we should absolutely mention this to) but fights are often decided by "champions" here - just throw Grandma in as a ringer pretending to be just that skilled/durable.

It also makes the question of whether we allow the knowledge of how to perform Tabe's trick spread to non-Royals who aren't Tabe even more pressing, but that's another matter.

Oh, I suppose we should check with Poptart regarding how stamina works, though it's still a useful trick even if we'd get tired twice as fast. @PoptartProdigy, is Bakkasama's idea feasible?
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Tabe lacks that kind of modulation, and nobody else is as good as him yet. Thus far, it's good for bursting as high as possible with a ruinous stamina cost. He's excited by the possibility of more controlled uses, but can't say whether or not it is possible.
 
Well, we could either train Tabe's trick in the off chance it can eventually work as a ki concealing technique or keep working on ki concentration so we can fight stronger enemies. Given how they work we could in theory use both at the same time but we have so many things to do that I think we should focus on one at a time.

I think we should probably increase our ki concentration, since we actually know a bit of it. It is only at the level of a half a Frieza increment at this point (damn saiyans) so we can certainly do better.
 
Bakkasama said:
Well, we could either train Tabe's trick in the off chance it can eventually work as a ki concealing technique or keep working on ki concentration so we can fight stronger enemies. Given how they work we could in theory use both at the same time but we have so many things to do that I think we should focus on one at a time.

I think we should probably increase our ki concentration, since we actually know a bit of it. It is only at the level of a half a Frieza increment at this point (damn saiyans) so we can certainly do better.
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Given the ridiculous returns it gives for the short amount of time it's up and the huge effect a higher PL can have in this system, I'm pretty sure we're going to max it, though we're obviously going to max Jaffur's trick too because free PL is king. Short of extremely effective tricks like the Dragon's TK I'm reasonably confident Tabe's trick (which really needs a better name) will turn a fair fight into a curbstomp, unless I've misunderstood the system (or possibly just exactly how stamina-intensive it is.)

Oh hey, another thought. @PoptartProdigy, Kikoho and Shin Kikoho both use Life energy instead of ki as a power source right? They have a backlash and can only be used so many times in a fight (between Senzu beans, anyway.) Does the fact that they're effectively draining our health instead of our ki mean that they're less stamina-intensive? Because that would be a really good combo with Tabe's trick. (It needs a name, Tabe. Making people call it "Tabe's trick" is super egotistical.)
 
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PoptartProdigy said:
Tabe lacks that kind of modulation, and nobody else is as good as him yet. Thus far, it's good for bursting as high as possible with a ruinous stamina cost. He's excited by the possibility of more controlled uses, but can't say whether or not it is possible.
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Figured as much other wise he would have done that durning the tournament and just crushed everyone.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Given the ridiculous returns it gives for the short amount of time it's up and the huge effect a higher PL can have in this system, I'm pretty sure we're going to max it, though we're obviously going to max Jaffur's trick to because free PL is king. Short of extremely effective tricks like the Dragon's TK I'm reasonably confident Tabe's trick (which really needs a better name) will turn a fair fight into a curbstomp, unless I've misunderstood the system (or possibly just exactly how stamina-intensive it is.)
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I wouldn't rely on it that much. It pretty much leaves us defenceless afterwards and it only takes the opponent somehow surviving or receiving reinforcements or us failing to notice an enemy or one of the conspiracies we are not part of deciding to take advantage for us to be screwed. I would leave Tabe's trick just for desperation gambits or conceal pl and rely on Jaffur's but still learn Tabe in case we have to fight a royal that knows it.
 
You guys know we can just fake it too. By that I mean we could pop Jaffur's trick then just raise our PL to whatever and claim the super secret technique passed down in the Armst- I mean Marsdon family for generations let's us do that. Claim it works like Kaioken basically.
 
Bakkasama said:
I wouldn't rely on it that much. It pretty much leaves us defenceless afterwards and it only takes the opponent somehow surviving or receiving reinforcements or us failing to notice an enemy or one of the conspiracies we are not part of deciding to take advantage for us to be screwed. I would leave Tabe's trick just for desperation gambits or conceal pl and rely on Jaffur's but still learn Tabe in case we have to fight a royal that knows it.
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Any fight where we use it would probably leave us exhausted afterwards anyway - beating them more quickly would likely leave us in a better spot, because we'd be on average just as tired but have taken less damage.

Artanis Prime said:
You guys know we can just fake it too. By that I mean we could pop Jaffur's trick then just raise our PL to whatever and claim the super secret technique passed down in the Armst- I mean Marsdon family for generations let's us do that. Claim it works like Kaioken basically.
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The thing about Tabe's trick is that it doesn't show up as a PL increase to sensors. I'm not sure what you mean here - Jaffur's 5% trick is a marginal increase (it'll rise with mastery, but if it breaks 25% I'll eat my hat, and that's highballing it) whilst Tabe's lets you go way higher. The Kaio-Ken is detectable by sensors (given how we could measure Jaffur and Berra at the start of the quest) and just raising our own PL would also be detectable, thus missing the point.

I mean, we're totally going to use Jaffur's trick, but it's not an absolute gamebreaker in the same way this hypothetical use of Tabe's would be.
 
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