- Location
- Land of Confusion
o.0
A world that flat out embraces ki, dragons, space aliens-that-are-also-human-except-when-they-aren't, the Kai's, and Saiyans...
and your suspension of disbelief blows out at Stephen King having a double?
Okay then.
Dragon Ball: After the End
o.0
A world that flat out embraces ki, dragons, space aliens-that-are-also-human-except-when-they-aren't, the Kai's, and Saiyans...
and your suspension of disbelief blows out at Stephen King having a double?
Okay then.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
A single-world-government, culturally closer to Japan world would probably have a somewhat different set of writers, yes.
- Location
- Maybe?
"You've been lying to us! All those traditions you've introduced us to... were really .... INVENTIONS!"
:audience gasps, begins gathering stones to throw:
"Indeed. We've been scamming you into improving your life for generations now."
:audience pauses:
"Many generations."
:audience looks thoughtful:
"By this point, you might almost call it a tradition."
:audience begins chattering excitedly:
:audience gasps, begins gathering stones to throw:
"Indeed. We've been scamming you into improving your life for generations now."
:audience pauses:
"Many generations."
:audience looks thoughtful:
"By this point, you might almost call it a tradition."
:audience begins chattering excitedly:
Nah, he was there, but in this universe he was an allosaurous and his editor was a talking, shapeshifting magic dog.
Admittedly, it did make reaching the keyboard more difficult.
Fixed that for you.
Well, if it wasn't for the fact that the Exiles are technically not lying that it's old technology.
- Location
- Maybe?
My point was more that at this point, lying to them has been clearly shown to be effective and reliable.
According to recent GM posts, it hasn't even been lying. Most Saiyan "inventors" have just been regurgitating saved and therefore old and proven designs, or at most just reproducing them from description and principle. Most of what the Saiyans have provided is actually older and more proven than Garenhuld's entire civilization.
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Looking at things....wouldn't Occam's razor be that the Grenhoulders were simply designed this way back when they were created?
"Remnant slave race" is one of the theories on the table, though also as an explanation for the general prevalence of humans in the galaxy.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
See, that trips over the "no ham sandwiches" prohibition in a lot of practical cases, if you try to apply that prohibition consistently.
"Well yes, having a form you can fill out worked well for the last thousand things we tried it on, but that doesn't prove it would work here! We don't know what will happen if we try it this time! It might turn into a monster!"
There's no problem if you grant the Garenhulders at least a minimal ability to reason about new ideas abstractly or by analogy, but that is precisely the ability I'm being told they don't have.
If Garenhulders can't program their own computers, then things get that extra bit... sillier.
You were addressing the question, "can Garenhulders do abstract mathematics and model systems mathematically?" My main question is, how, if they're this super-allergic to thinking about why things work? I mean, I'm trying to imagine explaining anything in physics or chemistry to a person with these hangups, and with a mindset characteristic of a culture where "tweaking your car's suspension causes it to turn into a werewolf" is considered superficially plausible enough to make a non-camp horror movie. And... guuuuhhh.
The idea of universal laws that actually work all the time, consistently, would be super-reassuring to Garenhulders, I would think, but also super-difficult for them to even remotely begin to comprehend if they can pretzel-logic themselves this hard.
I hadn't, at least not as of that time.
Now that I read it, well... in that case it comes down to me grossly underestimating just how much in the way of supplies and machinery the first generation of proto-Exiles crammed into the ships. Them having the tools to 3D-print (so to speak) literally all the things that go into, say, a 20th century civilization (because not ONE design can be left to the natives to figure out themselves) is simply not a capability I'd thought was being attributed to the Exiles.
Okay, think about the last time you looked under the hood of a car. Note the very large number of parts and the complexity of the system. Think about how many of those parts would need at least slight modification to make, say, a six-cylinder engine into a four or eight-cylinder one.
If it takes five years for a bunch of people to figure out "this bolt keeps breaking, replace it," then while in some very technical, rules-lawyering sense, they are "altering a design..." In the meaningful sense of being able to make working examples of high technology (i.e. beyond the early to mid-Steam Age)...
They have no realistic ability to alter a high technology design. Not on the timescales we're seeing.
To make alterations that mean anything, given how engineering of high technology actually works, they'd need that minimal "ham + sandwich = ham sandwich" capability, or some of it.
See, emphasizing the underlined bits makes this work. This is pretty much what I've been trying to get at all along.
If a not-too-abnormal sandwich-maker is capable of taking ham and a sandwich, and making a ham sandwich that they are pretty damn sure won't kill them, and eating it to show that it's not poisonous, and getting other people to sign onto the "ham sandwich" thing, the system can work.
If only about a hundred thousand people on the entire planet are capable of doing this, while the entire rest of the population does nothing but actively obstruct anyone who dares to try making a ham sandwich... Then you have a plausibility problem.
[Interestingly, I have heard someone speculate that autism may actually be caused by a severe over-sensitivity to changes. To perceiving minute differences in stimuli as being enough to make them "not the same category of thing," thus disrupting the ability to perceive that things are "normal" and comfortable. And likewise disrupting the ability to group together a bunch of not-quite-identical things like 200 different smiles as a single unified "smile" phenomenon. So comparing the Garenhulder Problem to autism may not be quite as inappropriate as one might think...]
CaesriusPolybius
Worldgate Mechanic
- Location
- United States. Ish.
With capsules, it's less a question of "how much can I fit in here" and more "how much do I have the time and/or resources to gather".
KnightDisciple
Brotherhood. Unity. Peace.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
Honestly I wouldn't count on the limit increasing that much.
That...doesn't sound appealing. It comes off as a bit meta-game-y to me, and it's sure to run into a host of problems, including the "but are you really present with me right now" concerns of loved ones.
Like, don't get me wrong, Action Economy strain hurts, but after a certain point we just need to accept it. If we try to game the system too much, @PoptartProdigy may just say, OOC "you can never have more than X number of actions in a year no matter what you do". I'm kind of astonished we haven't hit that limit already.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Mindful of this fact, I was very much not thinking in terms of physical space constraints. More in terms of "oh hey, it's panic time, shovel what you can into the ships in the moments before the planet explodes," which we've been explicitly told was their main constraint.
- Location
- Scotland
is there an actual limit to how much a capsule can pick up in the first place because if not I would be not surprised if they just went fuck grabbing the stuff take the whole building. I mean we know you can fit whole workshops and assorted tools in them(Or at least I think we do I forget what we have seen them do) so you have a bunch of people flying and basically taking everything that they can reach
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but while they're doing that, a couple of beings that move thousands of times faster than they do are busy beating the planet to death. Even by that standard, things got a little rushed, I'm sure.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
The ship could have been prefilled before anything happened. After all it was ready for take off, they were planning on flying it sometime and Bulma was not lacking for money.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
This sits ill with the scene where Mato and the others are frantically talking about how there's no time to finish loading, and later how they don't have the tools to uprate the engines.
- Location
- Montana
They can. They can also document it properly because they do careful preplanning, scope definition, use highly modular code, preform (excessive) testing cycles, extensive code reviews, structure the code for long-term maintenance, and totally understand what the code is doing. It may be painfully slow and expensive from our point of view but, contrary to what Hollywood and what some "I'm soooo special" programmers say, there is absolutely nothing magically creative about basic coding.
*Snerk* Imagining some Garenhulder doing agile web development and getting combined with a fly that lands on his computer.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well they likely have much less buggy code that is much better documented. In real life 70% of the budget can be testing. On Garenhuld I expect that it is much more.
In our world buggy code is something that happens sometimes. On Garenhuld buggy code means the end of your company and likely criminal charges. I expect that they have testing systems that will check how code will work under all conditions. They might never have had a hacker problem because their are no vunerablities.
The first computer the Saiyans introduced must have been super advanced Mores law can't happen here.
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- Location
- Montana
Hmmm... the Garenhuld probably only has one type of chip, one (simple) OS, and one Language. Probably a low-level one like Assembly language as they wouldn't see the point of a high level Language compiler, too buggy.
Major software teams probably build and maintain single modules, like a module that processes a credit card or a module that shows a catalog. Once tested then everyone else licenses that module and no one ever writes another one. Higher level coding is all about connecting these modules to make larger apps and testing the combination thoroughly.
As you say, such a thoroughly tested system with baked in security would make Hacking a much more difficult process, even if it didn't require more creativity than...oh god. Hackers are the insane mad scientists of modern Garenhuld.
The Fourth Monado
S U B A R A S H I I
- Location
- Away
I support this headcanon/worldbuilding.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I don't think they have many video games. Or likely none at all.
- Location
- Montana
Probably not. I doubt they'll get to that level of video output for centuries even with the Exiles pushing them along.
Okay, Simon? I think you might be looking at this the wrong way. By all indications currently, from what we saw in that, this isn't something that is just cultural, or the result of a weird biological quirk making things harder to comprehend or anything. They know the physical laws, they know how to explain how things work, and they're fully capable of adapting to change.
Except, from what was shown, the Garenhulders have basically had spikes driven into their brains that electrocute them while also stimulating the fear response when they're responded to technological innovation.
The prohibition isn't consistent, because it's something forced upon them, and it only trips in response to certain things.
What you're thinking: "Physical laws that allow you predict exactly what happens? That's impossible, you can't do that!"
What I'm thinking: "The physical laws allow us to know exactly how things will react. *zap* BUT IT MIGHT ALSO ACT AS A MAGICAL RITUAL TO SUMMON CTHULHU!"
Actually, from the fact that they have ships ready, and that they were making engines that could get anywhere in a week, I suspect that they were planning to go into space with information and tools anyway.
So I'm thinking the Briefs were planning on open up colonies on new planets, so they filled the ships with all the technology and information needed to rapidly assemble a new civilisation. Didn't think/hadn't gotten around to loading/installing the more specialized tools, though.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I expect that the Exiles gave them advantaged computers to start with. Moore's law doesn't work here.
They have video, but I don't think they have video games. No one if going to go through that extreme process just to make something for fun.
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