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Dragon Ball: After the End

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I mean, clearly the saiyans' ability to rapidly and efficiently power up in response to stress makes it easier for them to train their power up. And they may well flourish under a training regimen that would be harmful to humans.

The question is, how far can they go before it does more harm than good? Notice that Vegeta doesn't seem to progress as far as Goku under comparable training regimens (i.e. one year in the hyperbolic time chamber). If we go with an in-story explanation and assume there's a reason for that, why doesn't he train as efficiently?

Maybe because Goku is pacing himself at a rate calculated to use his saiyan biology, while Vegeta simply abuses it by training himself half to death, having a surge of recovery, and repeating the process. Goku gets better results because Goku learned, trained, and learned to train under great (if fallible) sages and demigods. Whereas Vegeta learned them from a bunch of barbarians. Powerful barbarians yes, but not necessarily experts in optimally using what they had.
 
Even with the risk though, the potential to have three perfect clones all using overdrive is such a huge increase in power that the utility of that kind of alpha strike can't be understated. It's the type of thing that's worth having in our back pocket, even if we never need to use it.
 
Lailoken said:
On the other hand, the seer absolutely flipped the table when he found out that his student might have even accidentally done so, to the point of demanding that she make a ritual apology and restitution under a sorcery-enforced geas of secrecy.
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I think he has more of a problem with the possibility of mental fiddling then mind reading. His main point of concern was the damage we could have done. Mind delve is based on ki sense. No fiddling. Or at least that's a different skill.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I mean, clearly the saiyans' ability to rapidly and efficiently power up in response to stress makes it easier for them to train their power up. And they may well flourish under a training regimen that would be harmful to humans.

The question is, how far can they go before it does more harm than good? Notice that Vegeta doesn't seem to progress as far as Goku under comparable training regimens (i.e. one year in the hyperbolic time chamber). If we go with an in-story explanation and assume there's a reason for that, why doesn't he train as efficiently?

Maybe because Goku is pacing himself at a rate calculated to use his saiyan biology, while Vegeta simply abuses it by training himself half to death, having a surge of recovery, and repeating the process. Goku gets better results because Goku learned, trained, and learned to train under great (if fallible) sages and demigods. Whereas Vegeta learned them from a bunch of barbarians. Powerful barbarians yes, but not necessarily experts in optimally using what they had.
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That's possible, but it's also pretty unsupported. I'd buy it if Poptart said it or you put it in an omake, but there's plenty of reasons why Goku might have had a leg up on Vegeta.
 
fictionfan said:
I think he has more of a problem with the possibility of mental fiddling then mind reading. His main point of concern was the damage we could have done. Mind delve is based on ki sense. No fiddling. Or at least that's a different skill.
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Alternatively, seers have a code of professional ethics that is stronger than the norm.

For example, if I work as a barber and one of my clients casually mentions some secret that could potentially cause problems for a friend of mine, you could reasonably argue that my responsibility to my friend requires me to pass on that secret. Or at least that it wouldn't be blameworthy to pass it on.

If I'm a lawyer and my client casually mentions some secret that could potentially cause problems for a friend of mine, I do not tell anyone. Attorney-client privilege is very strict about these things. It would clearly be blameworthy for me to pass the secret on, from the point of view of what my avowed duties are. And this is true no matter how much I value my friend.

...

Given that seers have tremendous amounts of potentially damaging information on other people, and can obtain more literally at will, it would hardly be surprising if they hold themselves to high ethical standards. If nothing else, other seers don't want an unethical seer probing into their own lives. Plus, an epidemic of seers violating people's privacy and divulging information that was harmful to them might result in anti-seer pogroms. The seers would, predictably, see that coming, and take the obvious step to avoid it.

Carrnage said:
Remember that time goku was traveling to namek when he accidentally set gravity to 100x before he was ready and came out much stronger?
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Hm. He set it to fifty, it spiked to 100 accidentally, do you remember if he could have set it back down if he wanted to?

Deathbybunnies said:
That's possible, but it's also pretty unsupported. I'd buy it if Poptart said it or you put it in an omake, but there's plenty of reasons why Goku might have had a leg up on Vegeta.
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Fair enough.

On the other hand, we DO see Vegeta injure himself through overtraining once he gains access to a gravity chamber, and we do see Vegeta get consistently inferior results from comparable training time, starting from a comparable baseline during the Androids/Cell arc.
 
I wonder how many crisises don't happen in Exile society because of the seers. They would generally see any economic crises coming.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'm pretty sure you don't get a zenkai for beating yourself half to death. :p
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Blonddude42 said:
Eh... It might have been translation issues, but the extreme gravity training Goku and Vegeta did arguably counts. Admittedly I haven't seen those parts in years (not counting DBZ abridged)
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Carrnage said:
Remember that time goku was traveling to namek when he accidentally set gravity to 100x before he was ready and came out much stronger?
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Simon_Jester said:
Hm. He set it to fifty, it spiked to 100 accidentally, do you remember if he could have set it back down if he wanted to?

Fair enough.

On the other hand, we DO see Vegeta injure himself through overtraining once he gains access to a gravity chamber, and we do see Vegeta get consistently inferior results from comparable training time, starting from a comparable baseline during the Androids/Cell arc.
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Actually, let me chime in in this topic: On the way to Namek, Goku used the gravity chamber to raise his power level up to 90K in six days. In the manga, at that time, Vegeta was explaining what zenkai was. Then we cut back to Goku in the ship and the narrator in the manga tells us that Goku had actually figured out that he grew stronger after recovering and was using zenkai to boost his training by forcing himself to train himself to the verge of death with higher gravities and then using a Senzu bean to heal himself. This is the reason that by the time Goku reached Namek he had 6 less senzu beans than Karin gave him just before he left earth. This is also the reason we have anime scenes like the one in which Goku uses a kamehameha inside the ship and manipulates its bean so that it turns and hits him.

Which means that by the time the namek saga came, Goku also used senkai to raise his power level on purpose and he achieved the 90K PL because he had 6 senkai in those six days (or was it five?).

By the way, iirc, that was also the chapter in which the narrator said that Goku already had the potential to become SS (yes, it was said before he reached namek) which means that the minimum PL for that is around 90K or a bit less.
Simon_Jester said:
The question is, how far can they go before it does more harm than good? Notice that Vegeta doesn't seem to progress as far as Goku under comparable training regimens (i.e. one year in the hyperbolic time chamber). If we go with an in-story explanation and assume there's a reason for that, why doesn't he train as efficiently?

Maybe because Goku is pacing himself at a rate calculated to use his saiyan biology, while Vegeta simply abuses it by training himself half to death, having a surge of recovery, and repeating the process. Goku gets better results because Goku learned, trained, and learned to train under great (if fallible) sages and demigods. Whereas Vegeta learned them from a bunch of barbarians. Powerful barbarians yes, but not necessarily experts in optimally using what they had.
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That is not quite the case? The year in the hyperbolic time chamber had different results because both innovated different training methods, not because one used the zenkai better. Gravity chamber is not a good comparison either because not only was vegeta stronger but because Goku did abuse the train himself to death method, with the difference being that Goku had senzu beans. Even then, we don't know if Goku did better than Vegeta because by that point, the gains that Goku had while training in the gravty chamber were not really significant against the opponents they faced anymore.

Then we have the 7 year gap after cell in which Goku still got better results but by then Goku was death. For all that he liked to eat and sleed, he didn't have to do so and the training was not as stressful in the body and he recovered faster. We can actually see that in how Goku didn't actually expect SS3 to be as stressful when he came back to life and was caught off guard. Presumably, a dead body is actually better for training.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Speaking as both the player of the character in question and the best friend of the real life person behind that character, it'll be quite some time before Kakara is good enough to get that talent. If ever.
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I am guessing that Jaffur is closer to it. He has been using endurance draining techniques for at least 5 years now.
 
I am a bit worried that with the current update rate an in game year is going to take an out of game year to do.
 
I wouldn't worry that much about it. The years are taking longer because more things are happening, things should calm down after Jaffur is released... right on time for Kakara to start dating and the thread's focus switching to that. Which will lead to Husbando wars between Maya, Tabe and Betarel.

Enjoy the peace while it lasts. You will look back to the slow pace and think of simpler times *Sounds of Dragon roaring in the distance and of saiyans throwing ki blasts to fake lightning so that humans don't notice it*
 
Bakkasama said:
I wouldn't worry that much about it. The years are taking longer because more things are happening, things should calm down after Jaffur is released... right on time for Kakara to start dating and the thread's focus switching to that. Which will lead to Husbando wars between Maya, Tabe and Betarel.

Enjoy the peace while it lasts. You will look back to the slow pace and think of simpler times *Sounds of Dragon roaring in the distance and of saiyans throwing ki blasts to fake lightning so that humans don't notice it*
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I plan on evading the shipping wars. Time will tell if I am successful. Either way, it'll be a secondary concern.
 
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