Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
What did I ignore?
Anyways, this isn't more than a fight in least we want it to be.
Tho if you cease arguing that'd be great, Silencing yourself is Always dandy... /s
Dragon Ball: After the End
Anyways, this isn't more than a fight in least we want it to be.
Tho if you cease arguing that'd be great, Silencing yourself is Always dandy... /s
- Location
- Australia
Don't worry about it.
I disagree with you on this.
I think this is a good time to stop. I think we've run out of substantial stuff to say at this point.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
You can disagree all you like, that doesn't change that I am right.
But I mean as I said silencing yourself only helps the side thats currently winning.
- Location
- Australia
It's bad form to reply to someone looking to end an argument with "I'm still right and your silence is making your opponent win".
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Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
What? Looking to an argument?
I mean I am right, and your not making an argument that I am in fact wrong, so I am uncontested (Well until you or someone else comes along to actually try to argue)
- Location
- Australia
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Oh ok, Sorry but I don't really care, I was just using you to try to spark someone else to argue, so I can convince people to stay or come to my side. Because letting the discussion just die isn't very productive towards good decisions.
Edit: Ok on second read of my comment, this is coming off harsher than intended, my bad.
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- Location
- USA
Inserted tally
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
...
Regardless of if you are right, crowing about how 'I'm right and you shutting up proves it!' is bad form, impolite, and frankly bad faith.Just... It's not something you do. It makes enemies and makes you look dumb, and proves nothing about your argument. It actively undermines it, in fact, because it implies you think you'd lose the argument if you had one, or the silence wouldn't be helpful.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
Eh, who cares? Besides that not what I was saying, I was saying that I am right, and you being willfully silent only hurts you and any counter you could possibly give me. I mean how can I give a good argument if the other side says literally nothing? I was trying to rouse argumentation, because silence is not conductive to good discussion....
Just... It's not something you do. It makes enemies and makes you look dumb, and proves nothing about your argument. It actively undermines it, in fact, because it implies you think you'd lose the argument if you had one, or the silence wouldn't be helpful.
XkaliburRage
Perpetual Procrastinator
[x] Yes
Oh boy, how absolutely ridiculous. Had a good laugh at least.
Oh boy, how absolutely ridiculous. Had a good laugh at least.
- Location
- Australia
[X] Yes.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean that in good faith.This is a quest. Making enemies encourages them to vote against your interests, thus shrinking your personal power to shape events. Furthermore, bad faith debating and uncivil gloating eventually enter rulesbreaking and therefore infraction territory. Ergo, enlightened self interest means you necessarily care.
Meanwhile, if you have an actual position, you can lay out what it is. You do not need a person to argue against, unless you are merely seeking to 'win the argument' in a debating in bad faith type just pushing to 'win' against someone with no actual position.
There is no need to argue against to make your position look appealing and desirable if you have one.
(also using 'you' in this context of responding to me when you were originally talking to someone else is sketchy linguistically.)
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
(The you is more generalized since if your not talking your not challenging me)
This is a quest. Making enemies encourages them to vote against your interests, thus shrinking your personal power to shape events. Furthermore, bad faith debating and uncivil gloating eventually enter rulesbreaking and therefore infraction territory. Ergo, enlightened self interest means you necessarily care.
Meanwhile, if you have an actual position, you can lay out what it is. You do not need a person to argue against, unless you are merely seeking to 'win the argument' in a debating in bad faith type just pushing to 'win' against someone with no actual position.
There is no need to argue against to make your position look appealing and desirable if you have one.
(also using 'you' in this context of responding to me when you were originally talking to someone else is sketchy linguistically.)
What I am look for is a discussion, Its easier to articulate arguments in regards to one thing and towards one or even several people than to make a generalized point that not only salient, but insightful enough on its own to convince people, I personally have a difficult time talking to a void than I do talking against another, And as you put it "winning the argument" is almost literally the best way to sway people to your side, not to mention more efficient as not only are you destroying your opposition's arguments but giving out your own at the same time. I have a hard time making arguments in the void, so I basically use others both on my side as a pivot. This is an inability that I recognize and so I go where my strengths are, my previous posts came off harsher and less eloquently than I would have liked though.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
The problem, the reason I call it linguistically sketchy, is the 'you' has pivoted to, yes, a general you. You, all the people reading this thread.
You, all the people who are reading this thread, are hurting yourselves by not stepping up and fighting me.
That's what's sketchy. You have pivoted to, essentially, the entire forum, or at least those participating in this quest, as your enemies, which is combative and hostile. Every single person has now been linguistically defined as your enemy by this pivot from a specific 'you' (the person actively arguing against you) to a general you (anybody in 'earshot', aka the entire thread.)
That intrinsically looks bad.
Ghostdevil
The Devil of Ghosts
- Location
- United States
That wasn't my intention, but w/e
iama go to bed.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
It doesn't matter what you intended, that's the point; we can only read what you wrote, not what you thought. The natural reading an inherently combative general 'you' has is hostility towards all reading it. Word choice means what it means, and while you can clarify intent if there is a miscommunication, it's better to say the right things in the first place to avoid the same miscommunication.
Amphidsf
The Quipster
- Location
- Golden
[x] No.
So yeah, by the rules as written that isn't against anything. As for making him disliked and having others likely to vote against him in the future, that is completely true, favorability is the currency most people use in quest, and grudges can last for a long time on the internet.
I just got this explained to me because what is and isn't Bad faith came up in conversation between me and Cetashwayo because of this thread. I'll just quote him on it.
Cetashwayo said:
So yeah, by the rules as written that isn't against anything. As for making him disliked and having others likely to vote against him in the future, that is completely true, favorability is the currency most people use in quest, and grudges can last for a long time on the internet.
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- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Eeeh. It might not be bad faith debating per se, but you can't tell me it's entirely civil (rule three) and I'd argue it's a tad disruptive (rule four).
That said, I doubt those specific posts would constitute infraction worthy rules violations, but my point was those are general kinds of behaviors that, if escalated, would be likely to get him infracted because, basically, like a lot of websites, the thrust of intent of several rules is 'don't be a giant dick'.
So, you know, being a giant dick gets infracted. Because you aren't supposed to do that.
In fact, checking the rules post,
rule 4 said:
This pretty clearly says 'engaging with arguments for a purpose other than communicating your opinion or presenting facts' is Not Okay, which is what I was talking about- arguing to try to 'beat the other guy' and not, you know, because you have an actual disagreement in positions.
Likewise, from rule three...
rule 3 said:
'play the ball and not the man'. I'm reasonably confident that is a prohibition in rule three (not four, where bad faith debating is, so I concede I may have misunderstood the term) that arguing against a person for the sake of arguing against them is against the rules. You can argue against positions, but trying to prove X User Wrong On Everything would be uncivil.
So, in summary, it seems I was misusing bad faith debating as a term somewhat but my points about 'these behaviors veer towards rules violations' is accurate going by the rules as written.
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
Ah, but then you are both charmingly insane and sanity bendingly insightful, so people consider your words in case you have a point even if they personally dislike you, because they have to respect the insight behind those prophecies of doom.
In that case, you are swaying people through insight rather than charisma and personal preference.
- Location
- Canada
[x]Yes
Bakkasama
There is always a greater fool
- Location
- Buenos Aires, Argentina
- Pronouns
- He/his
To expand a bit more in why I think we should accept (since while it seems that Yes is going to win, we might want to unclutter her thought process for the sake of her sanity):
First of all, a clarification. In my earlier arguments, I said that this would be a good distraction from the attempted assassination yesterday and that it would help with morale. It ocurred to me recently that Berra will soon tell people about the dragon coming, which would prove more distracting and and would plummet down morale so those arguments are not really the best. So I will focus in another.
I said before that we should expand our saiyan connections since we already sort of have an in with houses Peat and Balor and somewhat indirectly to Mato but we are lacking in Stauber contacts. I think this might be important for stability sake once we become lady. Our actions already have leanings to the other factions, with our actions in the council and our sheer awesomeness helping us with the Faith aligned houses like Peat and Mato and our actions regarding the scouts and helping the transition with the humans learning ki making us seem anti masquerade which is the position houses Peat and Balor have. Not to mention that we have even further connections to house Peat by the fact that our best saiyan friend is their heir, we pardoned Celeran and they are in hot wáter with Berra, meaning they will want to cosy up to us for protection. We could argue we have an indirect in with house Mato since their heir is dating Fennela; not particularly useful now but something we can build on to help keeping their loyalty once we are all adults. House Stauber, on the other hand, has no named characters connected to us yet and their stances are anti faith and pro masquerade. Their other defining trait is their loyalty to House Goku which is why we weren't that concerned about them but not only that might sour their perspective of us once we basically forcé dad to concede the sealing should be undone but the one time house Stauber went against house Goku was during the Oni crisis. The defining things of said crisis were the danger it presented to the masquerade, the way Oni dealt with the other SS and Carrick's sacrifice, the Peats supporting Oni (which lead to Stauber having Deep mistrusts of house Peat following that) and Oni's human wife helping him plot. We, of course, are nowhere near Oni in our ambition and ruthlessness (that should be pretty obvious with how we act and even further when we help reléase Jaffur) but our leaning to the Peats, our entreaties weakening the masquerade and the heavy human influence in our life are warning signs that might worry them once we forcé dad's hand. Befriending Tabe will not lessen the blow to our rep with them once the conspiracy comes to light but being Friends with Tabe would help mend it afterwards and it would assuage any fear they have that we have too heavy Peat and human influence in our daily life by both expanding our saiyan social circle and getting closer to their house. Furthermore, if we want to help centralize Gokun power and our influence in the clan, having a loyalist house further in our corner would help Berra's pushes in that direction.
On the matter of what befriending him brings to us in particular, besides the enjoyment of a new charácter to interact with: Leaving shipping aside for now, having a good fighter in our corner would help us as having a hero unit would in martial matters since, while we outclass most people PL wise, we can't be everywhere at once (MF has range after all) and we are a lot of the time limited to a certain PL. He could bring us political capital as our ally once he becomes head. Training wise... he uses a different style and one our mother can't teach us so I don't see him teaching us but might be a good sparring partner at limited PL so that we don't grow stagnant by fighting always the same opponents. I would also make a comment about the prestige of him being a tournament champion but to be honest, we don't actually need further prestige now.
Shipping wise, it would be better to wait and see what the situation post unsealing is but so far we have 4 candidates: Jaffur, Betarel, Maya and Tabe (not counting Jaron and Dylon because of Sophie and Fennela). Jaffur has the advantage of uniting the clans but we are really different and until we know how the issue of Jaron and him sharing a body is going to be resolved, I am not touching that with a 10 feet pole. Besides, we could always continue with the plan as was intended with Vegeta and Berra: befriend Jaffur, have our families be Friends and hope they reunite further down the line. Betarel is a good option politically speaking later in the future: He is Jaffur's cousing and his house is going to be the most loyal so it helps interclan relations, it cements the fact we are strong allies with his clan and house Senzu is filthy rich as the producers of Senzu beans and keepers of the spaceship so it does add political capital to ours. However, I have found him kind of bland in our intections so far and we have to see how our clan reacts to the reintroduction of house Senzu and Jaffur to the political scene before deciding. Maya is further down the integration with the humans and she has the potential to be a SS level fighter which has a lot of weight and so we might want to bind her tighter to our family. Finallly, Tabe helps bind his house to our rule, is a Gokun candidate which might be important depending on how we are seen afterwardsby our clan and has a lot of personal prestige which, while we don't need it now, it might help later and makes him a good candidate for consort.
Publicity wise, while I agree with Berra in increasing the prestige and Power of house Goku, we also want to start gathering a political power base for our future as ruler and the best way so far (besides making connections with the conspiracy members and getting publicity via faith and Papaya and killing the dragon and saving the world and successfully negotiating integration with aliens and humas) is to make personal connections with the next generation of those in power and this is a good first step as it makes us look more aproachable to those our age. Of course, we don't want to seem too aproachable if we want the royalty prestige but we don't want them to be constantly scrapping in front of us yet.
Finally, as a personal thing, I would want us to have more saiyan friends our age so that we don't grow too disconnected from our people (both in story and as a thread that could react to saiyan situations using human standards if we don't interact with them regularly).
First of all, a clarification. In my earlier arguments, I said that this would be a good distraction from the attempted assassination yesterday and that it would help with morale. It ocurred to me recently that Berra will soon tell people about the dragon coming, which would prove more distracting and and would plummet down morale so those arguments are not really the best. So I will focus in another.
I said before that we should expand our saiyan connections since we already sort of have an in with houses Peat and Balor and somewhat indirectly to Mato but we are lacking in Stauber contacts. I think this might be important for stability sake once we become lady. Our actions already have leanings to the other factions, with our actions in the council and our sheer awesomeness helping us with the Faith aligned houses like Peat and Mato and our actions regarding the scouts and helping the transition with the humans learning ki making us seem anti masquerade which is the position houses Peat and Balor have. Not to mention that we have even further connections to house Peat by the fact that our best saiyan friend is their heir, we pardoned Celeran and they are in hot wáter with Berra, meaning they will want to cosy up to us for protection. We could argue we have an indirect in with house Mato since their heir is dating Fennela; not particularly useful now but something we can build on to help keeping their loyalty once we are all adults. House Stauber, on the other hand, has no named characters connected to us yet and their stances are anti faith and pro masquerade. Their other defining trait is their loyalty to House Goku which is why we weren't that concerned about them but not only that might sour their perspective of us once we basically forcé dad to concede the sealing should be undone but the one time house Stauber went against house Goku was during the Oni crisis. The defining things of said crisis were the danger it presented to the masquerade, the way Oni dealt with the other SS and Carrick's sacrifice, the Peats supporting Oni (which lead to Stauber having Deep mistrusts of house Peat following that) and Oni's human wife helping him plot. We, of course, are nowhere near Oni in our ambition and ruthlessness (that should be pretty obvious with how we act and even further when we help reléase Jaffur) but our leaning to the Peats, our entreaties weakening the masquerade and the heavy human influence in our life are warning signs that might worry them once we forcé dad's hand. Befriending Tabe will not lessen the blow to our rep with them once the conspiracy comes to light but being Friends with Tabe would help mend it afterwards and it would assuage any fear they have that we have too heavy Peat and human influence in our daily life by both expanding our saiyan social circle and getting closer to their house. Furthermore, if we want to help centralize Gokun power and our influence in the clan, having a loyalist house further in our corner would help Berra's pushes in that direction.
On the matter of what befriending him brings to us in particular, besides the enjoyment of a new charácter to interact with: Leaving shipping aside for now, having a good fighter in our corner would help us as having a hero unit would in martial matters since, while we outclass most people PL wise, we can't be everywhere at once (MF has range after all) and we are a lot of the time limited to a certain PL. He could bring us political capital as our ally once he becomes head. Training wise... he uses a different style and one our mother can't teach us so I don't see him teaching us but might be a good sparring partner at limited PL so that we don't grow stagnant by fighting always the same opponents. I would also make a comment about the prestige of him being a tournament champion but to be honest, we don't actually need further prestige now.
Shipping wise, it would be better to wait and see what the situation post unsealing is but so far we have 4 candidates: Jaffur, Betarel, Maya and Tabe (not counting Jaron and Dylon because of Sophie and Fennela). Jaffur has the advantage of uniting the clans but we are really different and until we know how the issue of Jaron and him sharing a body is going to be resolved, I am not touching that with a 10 feet pole. Besides, we could always continue with the plan as was intended with Vegeta and Berra: befriend Jaffur, have our families be Friends and hope they reunite further down the line. Betarel is a good option politically speaking later in the future: He is Jaffur's cousing and his house is going to be the most loyal so it helps interclan relations, it cements the fact we are strong allies with his clan and house Senzu is filthy rich as the producers of Senzu beans and keepers of the spaceship so it does add political capital to ours. However, I have found him kind of bland in our intections so far and we have to see how our clan reacts to the reintroduction of house Senzu and Jaffur to the political scene before deciding. Maya is further down the integration with the humans and she has the potential to be a SS level fighter which has a lot of weight and so we might want to bind her tighter to our family. Finallly, Tabe helps bind his house to our rule, is a Gokun candidate which might be important depending on how we are seen afterwardsby our clan and has a lot of personal prestige which, while we don't need it now, it might help later and makes him a good candidate for consort.
Publicity wise, while I agree with Berra in increasing the prestige and Power of house Goku, we also want to start gathering a political power base for our future as ruler and the best way so far (besides making connections with the conspiracy members and getting publicity via faith and Papaya and killing the dragon and saving the world and successfully negotiating integration with aliens and humas) is to make personal connections with the next generation of those in power and this is a good first step as it makes us look more aproachable to those our age. Of course, we don't want to seem too aproachable if we want the royalty prestige but we don't want them to be constantly scrapping in front of us yet.
Finally, as a personal thing, I would want us to have more saiyan friends our age so that we don't grow too disconnected from our people (both in story and as a thread that could react to saiyan situations using human standards if we don't interact with them regularly).
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
I'll just reiterate that we should take the fight because a public fight would be good for us politically, and we're a shit enough fighter (well, more like these guys are so much better than us) that the only way we're liable to win is if we go at it with (at minimum) like 20X more power than they have.