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Dragon Ball: After the End

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On top of all the rest of this, there is something that I have been wanting to do for a while, but I know that doing it is something that will have to wait until we are ready to break the seal.


I want to look Berra in the eye, and ask him what the fuck was he thinking that night when he agreed to the seal.

What led a man known to be as patient as the stones to listen to a single declaration and jump to the worst conclusion. Because that continues to bug me. It felt so out of character then, and it feels out of character now.

He heard that Dandeer attacked her husband, and when her son saw it happen freaked out and attacked her.

And somehow, that meant that he was evil.

How did that reaction sound like anything but a logical, reasonable reaction.

And to then go and break the laws that he was to uphold, and shatter the Vegetan Royal Family...

The only reason that makes any sense is so that the Gokun can be the leaders of the whole of the exiles, but that to is something that doesn't fit the person our father is. And it doesn't go through with the events that followed.

What was he wanting out of the seal? Why did he do it?

Because the explanation that we have makes about as much sense as trying to use the spirit bomb against a person of the purest heart.

I feel so far as the say that the reason that our father gave is just... I call bullshit, basically. And I want to know the real reason.
 
Lunaryon said:
On top of all the rest of this, there is something that I have been wanting to do for a while, but I know that doing it is something that will have to wait until we are ready to break the seal.


I want to look Berra in the eye, and ask him what the fuck was he thinking that night when he agreed to the seal.

What led a man known to be as patient as the stones to listen to a single declaration and jump to the worst conclusion. Because that continues to bug me. It felt so out of character then, and it feels out of character now.

He heard that Dandeer attacked her husband, and when her son saw it happen freaked out and attacked her.

And somehow, that meant that he was evil.

How did that reaction sound like anything but a logical, reasonable reaction.

And to then go and break the laws that he was to uphold, and shatter the Vegetan Royal Family...

The only reason that makes any sense is so that the Gokun can be the leaders of the whole of the exiles, but that to is something that doesn't fit the person our father is. And it doesn't go through with the events that followed.

What was he wanting out of the seal? Why did he do it?

Because the explanation that we have makes about as much sense as trying to use the spirit bomb against a person of the purest heart.

I feel so far as the say that the reason that our father gave is just... I call bullshit, basically. And I want to know the real reason.
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It is out of character for him, isn't it?
 
Lunaryon said:
On top of all the rest of this, there is something that I have been wanting to do for a while, but I know that doing it is something that will have to wait until we are ready to break the seal.


I want to look Berra in the eye, and ask him what the fuck was he thinking that night when he agreed to the seal.

What led a man known to be as patient as the stones to listen to a single declaration and jump to the worst conclusion. Because that continues to bug me. It felt so out of character then, and it feels out of character now.

He heard that Dandeer attacked her husband, and when her son saw it happen freaked out and attacked her.

And somehow, that meant that he was evil.

How did that reaction sound like anything but a logical, reasonable reaction.

And to then go and break the laws that he was to uphold, and shatter the Vegetan Royal Family...

The only reason that makes any sense is so that the Gokun can be the leaders of the whole of the exiles, but that to is something that doesn't fit the person our father is. And it doesn't go through with the events that followed.

What was he wanting out of the seal? Why did he do it?

Because the explanation that we have makes about as much sense as trying to use the spirit bomb against a person of the purest heart.

I feel so far as the say that the reason that our father gave is just... I call bullshit, basically. And I want to know the real reason.
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Check his character sheet. One of his Foundational Traits is Atoner. He'll immediately jump at any chance to ''fix'' something he believes to be his fault, and he blames himself for what Vegeta became, and how that affected Jaffur.

Also, there might have been some ''protect my daughter'' in there as well.
 
Lunaryon said:
What was he wanting out of the seal? Why did he do it?
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She played him. You know his traits? They indicate that he has a lot of regret, but that regret comes from Vegeta and Berra not being there for him when Yamnar made him watch the death of the Talt.

That basically screwed vegeta up, and Berra regrets that more than anything. So Dandeer convinced him that the Sealing was a way to make up for the whole thing, and then she made him think her son was just like vegeta because he thought she was just like vegeta.

For better context, I suggest you read the time we were talking to our grandma in year one. It might help.

Edit: Also jaffur starting to take an unhealthy? interest in us may have helped.
 
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Gore17 said:
Check his character sheet. One of his Foundational Traits is Atoner. He'll immediately jump at any chance to ''fix'' something he believes to be his fault, and he blames himself for what Vegeta became, and how that affected Jaffur.

Also, there might have been some ''protect my daughter'' in there as well.
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...How?

Not just how is Vegeta his fault? But how is Jaffur his fault?

And how does the Seal fix anything?
 
Lunaryon said:
...How?

Not just how is Vegeta his fault? But how is Jaffur his fault?

And how does the Seal fix anything?
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From his character sheet, under "Defeats":
PoptartProdigy said:
The Sundering: Your father and Lord Vegeta were once best friends, until your father gave voice to his opinions on the Death of Talt. In the fight that followed, the skies turned red and Garenhuld shook as two men as close as brothers nearly tore each other apart. They have been bitter enemies ever since, and the consequences of that day have literally defined the shape of modern saiyan politics, most definitively for the worse. It is your father's single largest regret, the failure that he has since defined himself by.
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There's probably not a single reason, but many: that he wasn't able to help his friend become better mentally when they were younger, that he couldn't keep his mouth shut, that he couldn't resolve it peacefully, that he was unable to kill Vegeta and spare everyone the suffering he would inflict, that he was forced to sit back and watch his dreams die and his friend become a monster...

And Jaffur is his fault, because in his mind, Vegeta turned Jaffur into a miniature version of himself, something Dandeer either believed herself or at least presented to him. He saw Jaffur punching us unconscious, desiring to kill his father, brutalizing/nearly killing his mother, all due to the abuse Vegeta inflicted upon him.

With the Sealing, that is all gone. All the abuse, insanity, trauma and bad memories are gone. Everything he caused, erased like it never existed. Their existences have been wiped clean of the stains he inflicted upon them through his mistake. Like it never happened.
 
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The Fourth Monado said:
Because I want nothing to do with the hot mess that is Dandeer.
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Sadly, the hot mess has something to do with us...

fictionfan said:
It would be cool to show Jaron what we have learned so far about Jaffur style and ask him if he has any ideas.
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He won't. Firstly, we haven't learned any meaningful mechanics of how the style works and it may take years to do so. Secondly, it takes very impressive ki control to even participate in the style, and Jaron's ki control is at "can still have mountain-shattering accidental weapons discharges" levels. Jaffur, inside Jaron's brain, may have ideas... but the best way to contact him is via seer trance, not via approaching Jaron directly. Among other things, Dandeer may be able to read Jaron's mind like an open book, so unsubtle approaches to him that look like attempts to talk to Jaffur may tip our hand.

Sucal said:
Damn!

Now if only there had been someone who had previously argued that we should leave a blank 'buffer' action so we can avoid these types of situations in the future.

Would have had to be a devilishly handsome individual with a big ass clock and an excellent choice in Whiskey!
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The problem is that in cases like this, desires to use that buffer action are very likely to be driven by short-term thinking. Whatever crisis just happened will seem super-duper urgent and there will always be people advocating burning the buffer action on it, so it produces a year-long feud about whether the situation is important enough to merit using the buffer. The whole point of the yearly plans is to permit long-range planning that can "cruise through" isolated crises without getting constantly sidetracked and staggering from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor

Quest said:
So the more I think about things, the more I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. This is I think the first conversation we had with him alone on-screen, and... what do people think about bringing Jaron into our conspiracy?

Like, we should definitely talk to his mom about things but that's an entire different issue. I'm thinking of the best way to do this, but how about we break it to Jaron that his power isn't some fluke and that his mother is actually part of our clans, and knows about ki. Also how it's a difficult political situation and because of that his mother wants her family out of the whole thing.
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High risk of Dandeer being able to read Jaron's mind like a book. Right now, Dandeer thinks we were opposed to the Sealing and are trying to train her boy, but she doesn't seem to realize that we actually seriously intend to reverse the Sealing, let alone that Jaffur is aware and active inside Jaron's mind. Those are not things we want her to realize she can do something about.

Jaron is a huge security risk for this because he's basically a walking talking mass of hypnotic suggestions implanted by Dandeer. All of which are impressed into a vaguely Jaffur-shaped personality, in an attempt to create "the perfect son." It's a minor miracle he's turned out as well as he has.

Lunaryon said:
On top of all the rest of this, there is something that I have been wanting to do for a while, but I know that doing it is something that will have to wait until we are ready to break the seal.

I want to look Berra in the eye, and ask him what the fuck was he thinking that night when he agreed to the seal.

What led a man known to be as patient as the stones to listen to a single declaration and jump to the worst conclusion. Because that continues to bug me. It felt so out of character then, and it feels out of character now.

He heard that Dandeer attacked her husband, and when her son saw it happen freaked out and attacked her.

And somehow, that meant that he was evil.

How did that reaction sound like anything but a logical, reasonable reaction.

And to then go and break the laws that he was to uphold, and shatter the Vegetan Royal Family...

The only reason that makes any sense is so that the Gokun can be the leaders of the whole of the exiles, but that to is something that doesn't fit the person our father is. And it doesn't go through with the events that followed.

What was he wanting out of the seal? Why did he do it?

Because the explanation that we have makes about as much sense as trying to use the spirit bomb against a person of the purest heart.

I feel so far as the say that the reason that our father gave is just... I call bullshit, basically. And I want to know the real reason.
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The real reason seems fairly straightforward. Berra's entire life has been massively distorted and twisted by his regrets regarding the massacre of House Talt, Lord Vegeta's descent into madness, and the violent confrontation between the two known as the Sundering. From his point of view, the Sealing represents a way to undo the harm of the Sundering. The boy driven to violent insanity (who attacked his daughter and beat her to within an inch of her life not long ago) can live a normal, quiet life. His childhood friend, corrupted by Yammar's evil, can live a normal, quiet life. It can be over. He can wake up in the morning and go to bed at night NOT having to watch Lord Vegeta's sheer cruelty and viciousness make a mockery of everything he and Berra once planned to accomplish together. He can know that he doesn't have to worry about one of the two great rulers of the next generation growing up traumatized by his old friend's brutal child abuse.

One of Berra's defining traits along with 'patient as stone' is 'atoner.' If anything will move him to desperate, rash action, it's an opportunity to set right the consequences of his own past mistakes and regrets. This was such an opportunity- or Dandeer succeeded in persuading him so.
 
I'm gonna be honest, I just want to see Kakara actually try to have a meaningful conversation with Dandeer. We've spent so long tiptoeing around her, NOT gathering useful information about her motivations and intentions, that in a real sense we don't even know her.

[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
 
Worth noting that, "As the Rocks," is, for Berra, a former foundational trait. As in, no longer is foundational. It is still a trait, but, "Atoner," has firmly supplanted it in the top spot.
 
If we could convince him that the seal was a mistake Atoner would cause him to immediately act.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Worth noting that, "As the Rocks," is, for Berra, a former foundational trait. As in, no longer is foundational. It is still a trait, but, "Atoner," has firmly supplanted it in the top spot.
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He should really look into getting some therapy.

As should Dandeer and Kakara, honestly.
fictionfan said:
If we could convince him that the seal was a mistake Atoner would cause him to immediately act.
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Of course, that's easier said then done...
 
Gore17 said:
From his character sheet, under "Defeats":

There's probably not a single reason, but many: that he wasn't able to help his friend become better mentally when they were younger, that he couldn't keep his mouth shut, that he couldn't resolve it peacefully, that he was unable to kill Vegeta and spare everyone the suffering he would inflict, that he was forced to sit back and watch his dreams die and his friend become a monster...

And Jaffur is his fault, because in his mind, Vegeta turned Jaffur into a miniature version of himself, something Dandeer either believed herself or at least presented to him. He saw Jaffur punching us unconscious, desiring to kill his father, brutalizing/nearly killing his mother, all due to the abuse Vegeta inflicted upon him.

With the Sealing, that is all gone. All the abuse, insanity, trauma and bad memories are gone. Everything he caused, erased like it never existed. Their existences have been wiped clean of the stains he inflicted upon them through his mistake. Like it never happened.
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I'm not saying this to be rude...

But Bullshit. With the Sealing, none of that is gone it's just out of sight. All the abuse still happened and the effects, such as Jaron nearly trying a killing blow on us? That's still there.

The Trauma still happened

The Bad memories are still there, even if they have been sealed away, they still effect and alter the ingrained reactions that these people have.

I do not believe that Berra is dumb enough to truly believe that he can just sweep everything under the carpet and pretend that it doesn't exist.

Beyond that, surely he has seen the way that the Vegetan's are spiralling into chaos.

Where is his desire to fix his mistakes when the negative effects are on others?

Simon_Jester said:
Sadly, the hot mess has something to do with us...

He won't. Firstly, we haven't learned any meaningful mechanics of how the style works and it may take years to do so. Secondly, it takes very impressive ki control to even participate in the style, and Jaron's ki control is at "can still have mountain-shattering accidental weapons discharges" levels. Jaffur, inside Jaron's brain, may have ideas... but the best way to contact him is via seer trance, not via approaching Jaron directly. Among other things, Dandeer may be able to read Jaron's mind like an open book, so unsubtle approaches to him that look like attempts to talk to Jaffur may tip our hand.

The problem is that in cases like this, desires to use that buffer action are very likely to be driven by short-term thinking. Whatever crisis just happened will seem super-duper urgent and there will always be people advocating burning the buffer action on it, so it produces a year-long feud about whether the situation is important enough to merit using the buffer. The whole point of the yearly plans is to permit long-range planning that can "cruise through" isolated crises without getting constantly sidetracked and staggering from crisis to crisis like a drunken sailor

High risk of Dandeer being able to read Jaron's mind like a book. Right now, Dandeer thinks we were opposed to the Sealing and are trying to train her boy, but she doesn't seem to realize that we actually seriously intend to reverse the Sealing, let alone that Jaffur is aware and active inside Jaron's mind. Those are not things we want her to realize she can do something about.

Jaron is a huge security risk for this because he's basically a walking talking mass of hypnotic suggestions implanted by Dandeer. All of which are impressed into a vaguely Jaffur-shaped personality, in an attempt to create "the perfect son." It's a minor miracle he's turned out as well as he has.

The real reason seems fairly straightforward. Berra's entire life has been massively distorted and twisted by his regrets regarding the massacre of House Talt, Lord Vegeta's descent into madness, and the violent confrontation between the two known as the Sundering. From his point of view, the Sealing represents a way to undo the harm of the Sundering. The boy driven to violent insanity (who attacked his daughter and beat her to within an inch of her life not long ago) can live a normal, quiet life. His childhood friend, corrupted by Yammar's evil, can live a normal, quiet life. It can be over. He can wake up in the morning and go to bed at night NOT having to watch Lord Vegeta's sheer cruelty and viciousness make a mockery of everything he and Berra once planned to accomplish together. He can know that he doesn't have to worry about one of the two great rulers of the next generation growing up traumatized by his old friend's brutal child abuse.

One of Berra's defining traits along with 'patient as stone' is 'atoner.' If anything will move him to desperate, rash action, it's an opportunity to set right the consequences of his own past mistakes and regrets. This was such an opportunity- or Dandeer succeeded in persuading him so.
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BUT THAT DOESN'T FIX ANYTHING!

The whole of the sealing is just assuaging his ego and telling himself that he did the right thing by hiding the cracked cup in the basement so that no one can see that things aren't perfect.

If Berra honestly feels that the sealing fixed anything, then I personally feel that the only thing to do is to confront him about it and tell him to his face that if he cannot stomach the fact that everything in the world is not perfect then HE IS NOT CAPABLE of leading a government like the exiles. Because if his idea of fixing something is to hide it until it isn't a problem anymore then we NEED to go over everything that he has ever done to make sure that there aren't any more mistakes that he didn't bother to fix before removing them from the picture.

Erasing something bad from the history books doesn't mean that it never happened.




The way that you are describing Berra right now is basically a smaller scale Halocaust Denier.

And that is not someone who should be in a position of power.
 
Lunaryon said:
I'm not saying this to be rude...

But Bullshit. With the Sealing, none of that is gone it's just out of sight. All the abuse still happened and the effects, such as Jaron nearly trying a killing blow on us? That's still there.
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Lunaryon?

Please differentiate between what other people know or think they know about the Sealing, and what the quest voterbase thinks we knw about the Sealing. Otherwise, there is literally no point in even trying to speculate "what are other people thinking" because you won't understand what they think if you don't acknowledge the differences in what they know.

Berra doesn't know that the Sealing puts Lord Vegeta and Scion Jaffur's psychiatric problems 'out of sight.' As far as he knows, it's the equivalent of providing a schizophrenic person with medication that controls their schizophrenia. The madness isn't just "lurking out of sight," it is for all practical purposes gone.

Does this mean whatever bad things caused the madness "didn't happen?" No, obviously not. But it does take a terrible problem and turn it into a 'managed' problem. That's a significant change.

The Trauma still happened

The Bad memories are still there, even if they have been sealed away, they still effect and alter the ingrained reactions that these people have.
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You think you know that. I'm not sure it's true, and even if it is, Berra doesn't know everything we know about the Seal.

He doesn't know Jaffur is 'locked in' and in mental contact with the Jaron persona. He thinks that Jaron IS Jaffur, in the same sense that Karen IS Kakara... only that Jaron has been magically compelled to forget there is any Jaffur to transform back into, whereas Karen knows and remembers her life as Kakara.

I do not believe that Berra is dumb enough to truly believe that he can just sweep everything under the carpet and pretend that it doesn't exist.
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I think this is a gross oversimplification of what Berra is doing and thinking. The point is that Berra's motive is obvious: repair the damage caused by the Sundering.

Step One of that is to somehow subdue, control, and remove from the picture the madness of Lord Vegeta. The Sealing accomplished that.

Step Two is to heal the worst wounds caused by Lord Vegeta's malice. The Sealing has, so far as Berra knows, accomplished that, by acting as a form of psychiatric medication to control Jaffur's violently unstable personality and permit him to lead a normal life. Berra's lack of knowledge is biting his assessment of this step of the plan hard, but if you're asking "what is he thinking" that is your answer, and it would be a good idea to try to see the situation from his point of view.

In any case, Step Three of the plan is to somehow bring about order among the Vegetans. Berra doesn't know how to do that yet. We don't know what plans he has. It's entirely possible that he hopes to simply proclaim himself king of saiyans and have done with it, and I for one think he's well suited for that post. But in any case, he's clearly still working on Step Three.

However, he would never have gotten into a position to even think about Step Three if not for Steps One and Two, which rely on the Sealing.

BUT THAT DOESN'T FIX ANYTHING!

The whole of the sealing is just assuaging his ego and telling himself that he did the right thing by hiding the cracked cup in the basement so that no one can see that things aren't perfect.
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That's what you think.Berra thinks it erases memories and removes their effects on the subject's personality, at least to such an extent as to effectively neutralize any major trauma.

Berra doesn't think he's "just hiding the cracked cup" to protect his ego. You do, because you don't agree with him about how the Seal works and what it does. To him, it's the equivalent of medicating someone's depression or anxiety disorder or violent episodes so that they stop becoming a threat to others.

I mean, aside from that the only way to "fix" Jaffur and Vegeta's problems would be to kill them, because if they were crazy before, they'd still be crazy now, under any plan except one that involves Sealing away their memories of the relevant abuse.

The way that you are describing Berra right now is basically a smaller scale Halocaust Denier.
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No, that's the opposite of what I'm saying, and kind of insulting in my opinion.

Berra is trying to fix this. Not 'hide,' I honestly don't understand where you get that from. Fix the problem. The trouble is, how do you 'fix' the equally-powered reigning monarch of a rival nation equal in size to your own? How do you 'fix' the problem of abused child whose learned behaviors involve a lot of violence and obsession, and who is already the sixth strongest being on the planet, and who is able to defeat the first-strongest being on the planet given prep time because he's so reckless and ruthless he'll go Kaio-ken x10 to beat you?

Given the limits of the tools available, Berra may genuinely not have been able to think of any options for doing this that are obviously better than the Sealing. Not if he was sufficiently misled about Jaffur's personality, or about other factors.
 
[X] *Take a long, deep breath* You hate Dandeer, Dandeer hates you. Surprisingly (not) You know that she hates you and she knows that you hate her. But her son wants to learn how to fight. Not her first born son, but her second son. And as much as you want to make that decision... you really can't not without putting everything that you have been working towards in danger. Which means that you are being put in a terrible, horrible position. You need to talk to Dandeer about this. Both in the Masque and out of it. You hate this idea, but this is the best way to handle things because she does not handle even the image of things not being run by her. And the worst part, if we refuse to do this... Jaron will go off and do this on his own. Dandeer has to understand that... Right? He is doing this because he wants to be a good son. So either she has to convince him not to do this... or she has to let him do this. The other option is to reveal that she knows about Ki and Magic, because Jaron is figuring it out on his own, and if he decides that he is going to do this... then he is going to do this unless she actually stops him.

I would like to point out to you all that the FUCK DANDEER option is going to reinforce hot-blooded.

I recall quite a few of you expressed happiness that Kakara was starting to go back on that?
 
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@Cariyaga , your vote isn't being counted.

@Lunaryon , @fictionfan , if you intend to vote for something other than "Fuck Dandeer! Let's go behind her back and don't talk to her, while teaching Jaron," I recommend you join up with the rest of us on the vote :

[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.

Even if you don't like all parts of this... right now, it's pretty much neck-and-neck between this and "fuck Dandeer." A separate write-in involving a big paragraph of details on exactly what arguments to have Kakara advance, complete with ultimatums to Dandeer about what she has to do for her son... probably isn't going to win this vote.
 
Simon_Jester said:
@Cariyaga , your vote isn't being counted.

@Lunaryon , @fictionfan , if you intend to vote for something other than "Fuck Dandeer! Let's go behind her back and don't talk to her, while teaching Jaron," I recommend you join up with the rest of us on the vote :

[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.

Even if you don't like all parts of this... right now, it's pretty much neck-and-neck between this and "fuck Dandeer." A separate write-in involving a big paragraph of details on exactly what arguments to have Kakara advance, complete with ultimatums to Dandeer about what she has to do for her son... probably isn't going to win this vote.
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Ah. In that case, @mithril-blade's vote is not being counted, either. Thank you for informing me.

That said, you're right. grumbles about first past the post

[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.
 
[X] The time has finally come. You need to talk to Dandeer again.
-[X] Ask Dad and Grandma for advice. Doubles as insurance as they know what's happening.
-[X] Also, double-check that Jaron actually got permission for the training. If he didn't, you'll offer a formal apology to Dandeer, because whatever your feelings for her are, it was genuinely negligent on your part.
-[X] Talk to Dandeer in private about Jaron and his wish to fight.
-[X]Also ask her about her long term plan. The current situation does not seem tenable long term. Jaron can't be kept in an infantile state of dependency forever, and the Vegetans obviously aren't happy with him not being allowed to train.

I don't want to apologise, but whatever.
 
Basically, if Jaron misled his mother about the training, then either:

1) Kakara done goofed, due to her dislike for Dandeer, and apologizing is entirely appropriate. It is possible to wrong an enemy, after all. OR...
2) We're basically denying Dandeer's standing as parental authority over Jaron, thus justifying NOT asking her permission in the first place.

While there are good reasons to support (2), there's not much point in trying to have a conversation with Dandeer about her son if we're not going to acknowledge at least for the sake of argument that she has parental authority over him. Sticking with (2) basically means we should flip back to the "Fuck Dandeer" vote choice.

If we acknowledge Dandeer's parental authority over Jaron at all, so that it's even meaningful to talk to her about this, then we pretty much have to acknowledge that talking to all the other parents and NOT her was wrong. Otherwise, we're torpedoing the whole point of the discussion.

Being polite and punctilious about our obligations, even when dealing with an enemy, is a useful habit to develop.
 
Yes, yes. It is just annoying to have to apologise for a mistake we didn't vote for.

I am starting to think that Kakara's mature trait should evolve from how often she has to be more mature than the adults around her.
 
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Cariyaga said:
Why?

Maybe it's a cultural difference between us, but I apologize for stuff I didn't do intentionally all the time.
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It is mostly that Dandeer does not give me the impression of a mature adult so she is likely to take any apology as a admission of weakness and pay it for all it is worth. Fortunately Kakara is not proud. She can play along.

This will be our first attempt at social manipulation from a position of weakness. Even more interesting because we take on the position of weakness intentionally.

This is a conversation that Kakara would be advised not to go SS during or even power up.

I hope Dandeer realizes that we could have easily asked her in front of a crowd of Vegetans.
 
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