ChildishChimera
A umbran summon
- Location
- New York
[x] ...things that are
Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You are correct.
As KaintukeeBob said. Mastering the form was initially hugely controversial given the givens. But, given that the Enemy is almost certainly searching for you over the scale of light years, it was considered a worthwhile risk. Realistically, nothing even a single star system over should be able to sense even a Full-Powered Super Saiyan. It would just fade out.
As for ASSJ and USSJ, they're actually a big part of the reason why the secret of mastering the form is kept a secret. Rebellious houses like Talt start making Super Saiyans transform, realize that they need more, and try to figure out the secret. And ASSJ and USSJ are what they figure out, which against a Full-Power Super Saiyan is worse than useless. It's the Lords' way of crippling dissenters preemptively.
I'm sorry to see you go! If you do ever chose to stick your head back in I'll be happy to have you back. And it's a long way to go yet; Kakara's attitude now can change as the general consensus does.
But in any case. See you around the site!
Kelirapc
The Bright in your Night
- Location
- Kali-Forni
Reading the general discussions around this quest revolving Dandeer, I kinda doubt it would change.
Kakara even considering attacking her while shes in that state made me a little mad. Reading this
and nobody really commenting on it makes it seem like nobody really cares, and will continue to vote for things like this.
So, I will be checking in now and again, but as a whole, I'm not holding out on things changing.
So yeah, see you around.
[X] ...things that will be.
I'm not sure why people don't want to see the future. I do agree that both the past and the present have huge utility. But so does the future. It should be able to tell us when a conflict is coming up, or natural disasters, and eventually even who our enemies will be and what abilities and weaknesses they have.
I'm not sure why people don't want to see the future. I do agree that both the past and the present have huge utility. But so does the future. It should be able to tell us when a conflict is coming up, or natural disasters, and eventually even who our enemies will be and what abilities and weaknesses they have.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
For what it's worth, @PoptartProdigy , I can sort of see what @Kelirapc is saying. I certainly didn't get much sense of "Gentle" or "Pacifist" out of that encounter. I mean, Hot-Blooded, A Cause, etc., I get it, but that was terrifically bloodthirsty for a young girl who's determined, to the depths of her soul, that Fighting And Killing Is Wrong.
I chose Worry because I wanted to strike a balance between self-checking potential violent tendencies (which...sort of happened?) and not just caving instantly to what she was saying and demanding.
Kakara's character should be one that walks a constant tightrope of tension. But...it doesn't quite feel that way right now. She seems to have no inner conflict about threatening to violently murder this woman, despite her no-compromise scream-at-the-heavens dedication to Pacifism?
Some of the comments in the thread have made me wonder if other Players realize we're playing the Pacifist Kakara instead of the Bloody Warrior Jaffur?
I chose Worry because I wanted to strike a balance between self-checking potential violent tendencies (which...sort of happened?) and not just caving instantly to what she was saying and demanding.
Kakara's character should be one that walks a constant tightrope of tension. But...it doesn't quite feel that way right now. She seems to have no inner conflict about threatening to violently murder this woman, despite her no-compromise scream-at-the-heavens dedication to Pacifism?
Some of the comments in the thread have made me wonder if other Players realize we're playing the Pacifist Kakara instead of the Bloody Warrior Jaffur?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
In this particular case, Lady Vegeta is a special case. I've mentioned before, and it's in the character sheet, that you hate her as much as you're physically capable of doing so. You know that what you want to do to her is wrong, and you don't like it, but you hate her so much that you can't shake it.
Which no, as I pointed out, isn't healthy. There's a lot of conflict under the surface that Kakara is just refusing to acknowledge, and if she ever were to act on that hatred she'd be very messed up afterwards. But at the moment, that's what she feels, and she hasn't had an opportunity to deal with it yet.
- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Oooooh, so she's got some nice self-hatred brewing, and it could lead to !!FUN!!.
I'm wondering where we can take the 'Pacifist' trait. As written, it isn't very good for a MC in a DBZ setting - it will nerf our ability to train, and many antagonists in DBZ are unwilling to talk seriously unless they have a healthy respect for their opposition's ability to break skulls.
Hopefully, we can evolve it into something that will let us train up fight-ending moves (one-hit KOs, power suppression/sealing, etc) with a bonus, defensive moves with a bonus, but with a malus to things like group-fighting, large area attacks, etc.
Or we go the Bloodvenger path and evolve it to "Peaceful...like a graveyard" where we Bring. Peace. Whether they like it or not. If they won't be peaceful, we'll make them be. After all, someone with no unbroken bones (no, not even the tiny ear bones) is unlikely to hurt anyone, right?
I'm wondering where we can take the 'Pacifist' trait. As written, it isn't very good for a MC in a DBZ setting - it will nerf our ability to train, and many antagonists in DBZ are unwilling to talk seriously unless they have a healthy respect for their opposition's ability to break skulls.
Hopefully, we can evolve it into something that will let us train up fight-ending moves (one-hit KOs, power suppression/sealing, etc) with a bonus, defensive moves with a bonus, but with a malus to things like group-fighting, large area attacks, etc.
Or we go the Bloodvenger path and evolve it to "Peaceful...like a graveyard" where we Bring. Peace. Whether they like it or not. If they won't be peaceful, we'll make them be. After all, someone with no unbroken bones (no, not even the tiny ear bones) is unlikely to hurt anyone, right?
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
This is either going to end terribly or heroically, and I'm fine either way.
(I'd be more worried but we gained it for carefully considering ways we might be wrong, so it's a thing where we have it because we've thoroughly checked against it not because of blind ego or whatever).
Also, with this update I'm now thinking Lady Vegeta is... Innocent? But it doesn't change my opinion.
As I said previously, even if she's not doing this to take over the world, she's done a lot of damage, even if it's merely because trauma and not ill intent.
Of course, if she's innocent (in the sense of her lacking ill intent) I'm more likely to consider trying to get her therapy over just plain summary execution. So it does change my outlook to a degree. Just not my opinion that, with the Lord Vegeta Vegeta Vegeta (hurrr) sealed she's the closest thing we have to a visible antagonist, the most immediate threat (that we know of).
in any event.
[x] ...things that are
I agree this is the most likely to be useful in a practical manner. Visions of the future might warn us of an incoming enemy- or we might power train in response and get the enemy for reacting. Visions of the past might give insight on, say, the Lady Vegeta situation, but I think it's less likely to be immediately actionable info.
- Location
- Just passing through.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] ...things that were.
You still disagree with her sealing away Lord Vegeta, then? Because personally, I think sealing that bastard away was a good idea. Having an unstable violent arrogant child/wife abuser in charge isn't a particularly good idea, especially when there's only three people capable of standing up to him and one of them (Yammar) is a sadistic bastard who's worse than said abuser. Assuming Dandeer had done nothing, it would have ended with either Jaffur murdering Lord Vegeta (and becoming even more fucked up) or Lord Vegeta killing Jaffur (which should also fuck him up at least a little bit more ), which would likely have caused massive public uproar towards whoever won the fight, so both Jaffur and Vegeta are currently better off than if Dandeer had just let things run their course.
She's not a "threat", though. Left alone, she'd do absolutely nothing, and the only way she'd start actually opposing us is if she starts developing a(n entirely justified) belief that we're planning to unseal Jaffur.
Question time!
Other than House Talt and the rebellion that our brother's namesake stopped, have their been any other Super Saiyan rebellions?
Have anyone ever tried to assassinate the ruling and former Lords/Ladies rather than try a Super Saiyan rebellion?
If Jaffur and Lord Vegeta hadn't been sealed away, how would the public have reacted if he (Jaffur) eventually killed Lord Vegeta? Would it be considered legal or would Berra have to try to punish him?
DevilsAdvocate
Always follow the golden rule.
[x] ...things that were.
you need to know the past to not do its mistakes...
you need to know the past to not do its mistakes...
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Whoo!
Yes, but none organized; just cocky young warriors who thought they could take the system apart.
Yes, but none who succeeded or even got very far.
COMPLICATED question, and it would have gone to Yammar Vegeta for judgment (he would have been reinstated as Lord given that Jaffur has no children). People would be uncomfortable, though, given the suddenly-reduced line of succession.
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- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
1: We don't know what Yammar is like. We know what he's done, not who he is. You seem to think Dandeer is herself not ill meaning, yet she sealed Jaffur. The closest to hard info on personality of Yammar we have is that him and the former lady Goku want the houses united, apparently. Which is not ill commentary.
2: I can't say what my opinion on her sealing Lord Vegeta alone would have been. The important part is she's broken the balance of power and ability to enforce laws in a (if she gets her way) rather permanent manner by not only removing the only direct check on Berra but removing the future check on us, Jaffur.
Assumption. Just the following facts...
A: She is opposed to most of the questers desire to unseal Jaffur makes her an obstacle at least.
B: She would not tell us if she was planning to seal us, dear old dad, and the former lord and lady, naturally. You can not rule that out on current information.
C: She has cut our military strength and is inherently opposed to raising it back up, in context. If we do get attacked by aliens or something in the near future, we are weakened by her ongoing actions. I read her as, at best, the kind of threat an obstructive bureaucrat is to our ability to handle future problems, as is, with the caveat that we know she can effectively assassinate us if she decides we are a big enough problem.
Mean I rate her as 'probable/functional antagonist', even with the most innocent assumptions applied. (Reminder: We still don't know if there was a nefarious reason behind her using a mind control chant to do the sealing.)
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Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
I don't know about how Bringer of Death handled it, but in the show it was strongly implied that USSJ is equal to SSJ2 in terms of pure power. It's just terrible on the speed department and thus gets whoever uses it in a real fight speedblitz'd.
KnightDisciple
Love God. Do Right. Fear No Man.
- Location
- Midwest, USA
If not equal to SSJ2 power, then at least approaching it.
But it seems to be because it takes the overall power/energy of a high-level SSJ and basically shoves it all into the muscles. 200% power boost for 0% speed boost (instead of a 100/100 boost, as it were).
SSJ2 seemingly regulates the raw strength/power to help not only increase speed/reflexes but more generally cut back on the muscle distortion.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
As per BOD, the answer to the first question is, "yes and no," in a way that ties into the second question. ASSJ gives you a 1.5x multiplier to the SSJ boost, and USSJ doubles the boost. In addition, both in theory raise the base power cap to 375 million, just like FPSSJ. However, they get slammed with diminishing returns far earlier and far harder, and also give no endurance benefit like the mastered form does. So it would take a lifetime to grind them up to a comparable or greater power level -- as House Talt discovered while trying to find a way to master them. That said, a FPSSJ who tried to bulk up would simply go USSJ, doubling their 750 million boost and arriving at a total transformed power of 1.875 billion, but with all of the crushing endurance and speed penalties of the bulked up forms. So if you've got a really big blast that needs charging, and absolutely nothing else, it's the superior form. Thus, under the right circumstances and used by the right person, USSJ is stronger in terms of brute force, yes.
And as @Aranfan pointed out above, the implication is that that power level is equal to SSJ2. And under the BOD system, they're correct -- SSJ2 kicks up the boost from SSJ by a factor of 2, but with an equivalent proportion of endurance and speed to a normal Super Saiyan. So a Full-Powered Super Saiyan who bulked up into USSJ and got into a beam struggle could fight a Super Saiyan 2 on equal ground -- for like a minute, until their ki ran out. And then they would be vapor. Really, really buff vapor.
No worries! Welcome back!
Aranfan
Team Plasma Grunt
Interestingly. I decided to look up the Bringer of Death Power Level chapter, and it has 50% FPSSJ Goku being more powerful than USSJ Trunks. I'm not sure if that has to do with base power differences or what, but yeah.
Yammar tortured a six year old girl to death in front of her family. I don't care if he justifies it by saying it was to "discourage further uprisings", because torturing six year olds to death is pure fucking evil. This guy is a hundred times worse than Dandeer and Lord Vegeta (who I personally think is worse than Dandeer) added together, and responsible for turning Lord Vegeta into the bastard he was. Yammar's a monster, and Apra and Berra should have killed him either during or immediately after the Talt business.
Both Apra and Yammar are still checks on Berra, and politically, Dandeer theoretically is too. Heck, given that we're currently planning to unseal Jaffur, even Kakara's a check on his power.
Not disagreeing with this one, but it's us who´s a threat to Dandeer, not the other way around.
I can also not rule out that someone is plotting to assassinate us in our sleep. We have no proof of her wanting to seal any more people, so I'm not sure why people are talking about this as a realistic possibility.
If we get attacked by aliens and they're much stronger than us, Lord Vegeta or Jaffur wouldn't have been particularly useful. If we're attacked by aliens and they're much weaker than us (this is the most likely scenario), our youngest brother casually solos the invasion. And yeah, Dandeer can seal us in our sleep (though I really doubt she'd do so, especially to her ally Berra), but anyone would be able to kill us in our sleep, so I don't see how Dandeer has the advantage. Furthermore, we're a seer, once we train our powers, sealing/killing us in our sleep will be basically impossible.
Didn't someone say something about it just being a general magic chant?
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- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
She has proven able to seal Vegeta Vegeta in his sleep unnoticed by the big super saiyans. This does not automatically mean she could do it to us, but random Senzus, say, are more likely to be stopped by random guards or caught by Berra or whatever. It's a plausible threat and she's proving to consider it a viable solution to problems (where any random Senzu we don't know would be willing to kill us in our sleep, etc)
Desperate or ruthless are options. Not automatically the same thing as sadistic or malicious. He might well be a very nice person other than considering torturing small children to death okay, it's entirely possible.
By all appearances, it'd have to be Apra and Yammar together to do shit to him. Also? Who Cares. She still greatly disrupted the balance of power, by which I mean it's now possible for Berra to murder most of the planet with no single individual able to stop him. And don't try to objrect that he's a good man, mind control definitely exists in the setting.
No. It was theorized it may have been used merely because it's something we, the audience would see as being a 'magic chant, done', but it's specifically Babidi's mind control chant. it might not be being used as such in context, but, in my opinion, the risk that it is is too great.
Blatantly fallacious. If we get hit by.... say, 6 aliens, each of which is about an even match for a former lord/current lord/scion, we could die because we're down 1/3rd of our biggest guns. Remember, we can win and be tired whereby more meat for the grinder would help. Aside from any concentration of power advantage.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Blegh, my language was imprecise. Specifically, I mean that USSJ and SSJ2 do the same thing to the SSJ boost, i.e., a x2 boost. USSJ Trunks hadn't trained his base power level to anywhere near 375 mil, and was only doubling the base SSJ boost of 145 mil, so he was substantially weaker than 50% Goku, yes.
Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
Until she does it to someone who did not beat her up, I really don't think it is a probable scenario. I read the discussions about possible nefarious plots, magical research to mass-seal everyone, ect, and... I really don't see it. Mind-control induces a knee-jerk reaction from most people, and she certainly isn't entirely stable, but I have trouble understanding the level of vitriol aimed at the character. She definitely needs to be stopped, though.
... I don't think that's how it works. While people do have different "faces", and do not behave the same way with different people, such strong... beliefs? tends to permeate on personality as a whole. If torturing and executing children one at a time in a public display is considered acceptable by someone, I'm pretty sure that disqualify said someone from the title of "very nice person".
- Location
- The Great Beyond
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
You don't really understand cultural context and codes of honor and similar, then. It's entirely possible that Yammar is a very nice person who simply thinks that no punishment for defying the authorities is too great. Now, at that point, he's kinda not nice by modern earthling cultural standards, most likely, but he genuinely can be caring, charitable, etc... other than a rather extreme willingness to be a hard man in hard times. Even if you want to claim it's physically impossible for a human to do it, he's a fictional person with fictional alien heritage. Unless PoptartProdigy wants to announce that "it is entirely impossible for a Saiyan to do what Yammar did without being literal satan", or similar, I'm not going to budge on the point that, until we learn more about him, we don't know enough to say what he's like as a person on a day to day basis.
Allow me to also point out that Hitler was, in fact, a dog person. Yes yes I'm bringing Hitler into the discussion. Point is, even horrible people have facets other than 'is horrible', and Hitler is a known historical example to point out.
I honestly don't care that much about her as a person, she is, however, promoting an agenda we disagree with in character (and that many voters disagree with out of character) with sealing Jaffur and all, and has proven capable of certain threatening actions.
We know the Senzu have a Sorcerer of their own, we don't know for sure he can seal people. And aside from him, (or is it her?) we know other Senzu can't.
Also, information availability. We don't know if other Sorcerers are a plausible threat here. Arguably, we should correct that information gap, but the point is, even if I suspect random barely named Saiyans of bearing us ill will, they don't have known abilities to be a relevant threat. I'm not worried about the possibility of a Grain of Sand wanting us dead more because we know no way it could succeed than because it's non-sentient, and by a similar token random not-Sorcerer not-Seer not-Super Saiyan Saiyans aren't a credible threat to us by and large, especially since we have Instant Transmission and good Ki Sense.
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Macros
omnisciently vague councilman
- Location
- Dirac Sea
I do know that, as well as the fact he was described as kind to his secretary and seemed to really love his mistress lately turned wife. Still doesn't make him a "very nice person" because treating those you love well isn't enough to earn the moniker.
He's a hybrid, and, more importantly, thought up and written by a human, unless our dear QM has some shocking secret. So I'm pretty sure normal human standards still apply.
I should hope I understand them a little bit, though, it's kind of my job. But while standards evolve with time, the actions described here would be over-the-top by pretty much any I'm aware of (not saying that it never happened, since history is full of charming anecdotes, but it would still be vindicated). The fact that our character, and the character who told us that, are pretty much horrified by it, shows that even among saiyan, that's not quite okay either.
Though I feel to point out : I don't believe him to be "literal Satan", because no-one is, really. But unfortunately, you don't need such standard to be considered a pretty poor human being.
... okay? Not disagreeing with most of that, just not sure of the point you're trying to make.