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Dragon Ball: After the End

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As far as my opinión on the situation, well, I have already expressed that I don't think fixing our family situation would require one of them to give up their side of the argument. People can think differently on the issue but as long as we don't keep making it personal we can agree to disagree. We are just saiyan, nobody is perfect or can always be right.

Regarding Lady Vegeta, it is not so much the Sealing itself but how they went about it that I disagree with. It is posible that sealing them was the best choice but to do so without the authority to decide it and not to be punished for it, plus the involvement that one of the heads had in the inner workings of the other clan... it sets a dangerous precedent and makes a mockery the idea of state as the upholder of justice and rights. I can see why she would have thought it necessary since the agresor was the one who had to stop those things from happening and the highest authority. I can also see why she would decide that the same was needed for Jaffur after he almost killed his own mother after learning Vegeta's fate and that he would be denied his revenge. Heck, I even sympathize with her situation. But that doesn't change the fact that she could have gone to Berra first or that she overstepped har authority and got away with it. I could have seen the sealing as a valid alternative or punishment with a few slight modifications or if the situation were different but the way she went about it wasn't right. Once it started, finishing was probably the right choice but that doesn't make it right, just the best of the bad options.

I also think that people might be exagerating with the whole "Dandeel promoting sealing" thing. The woman clearly believes in the ancestors and her problema is less of the saiyan heritage and more about when the bloodthirst that comes from it is too strong. She would, at most, propose it as a way to deal with those who are too violent for peaceful coexistence otherwise and then work her way into using it to disenters. Under different circumstances I might have considered it but with this as a first example of how it would work, it seems like a terrible idea and would now cause more trouble than it would solve.


As for Berra agreeing to it, Dandeer put him in a bad situation. For one, he was feeling guilty for not interfering sooner and once Vegeta was sealed his hand was forced. He couldn't protect Dandeer since it would cause things to be tenser than they are now, as the leader of clan Vegeta, Jaffur, would have rallied his clan against it nd protecting the criminal would be a tacit aproval of her actions. Jaffur, upon learning what happened, almost killed his mother so he couldn't return her to him and he had to woory if he wanted someone like that to rule over half the saiyans. Plus, Jaffur is a mother effing Prodigy and given a few years I am not sure Berra could have stopped him if he wanted. With how bad an impression he gave, I can see why he decided to go along with the sealing. While I want to say that he is 8... he didn't act like it and from an outsider perspective he looked downright vicious. Kakara at least had the advantage of SEEING that he was actually grateful towards her and not that far gone.

So yeah, I can see from where they are both coming from and I can't say they reached the wrong conclusión or had bad intentions. But for an action to be a good action it has to be good in intent, execution and results. They clearly failed in execution and things are up in the air with results since it is not really clear whether it was necessary in the case of Jaffur. Though all the information both Berra and Dandeer had pointed that it was and we think differently because we saw other side of him. So, from their perspective, the results were those of a good action, the intent was too and the execution was what was necessary if complicated by problems with communication but from our side they had good intentions but the execution sucked and it wasn't necessary so the results were plain wrong.
 
Bakkasama said:
It is posible that sealing them was the best choice but to do so without the authority to decide it and not to be punished for it, plus the involvement that one of the heads had in the inner workings of the other clan... it sets a dangerous precedent and makes a mockery the idea of state as the upholder of justice and rights.
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If nothing else, I think this needs to be addressed when we meet her this year. That even if she was right about her husband (which we defer to our dad on since we didn't know him and what we did see made us agree with it) and son (which we don't agree with at all, that he still could have been brought back), she can't stay unpunished.
 
I agree that it should be possible to reconcile with dad, or at least stop our relationship from deteriorating further, even without either of us budging on the sealing.
 
Nathaniel Wolff said:
*Immediate suspicion and paranoia*

now why would they hide whatever killed Earth from us? Interesting...
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Terrabrand said:
It could, conceivably, be a side effect rather than an intentional act.
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It also could have been Gohan rather than the aggressor. He dropped off the map during the fight and returned at insane power just to send a message which included "never tell anybody" and blow up the planet.
 
To be fair, the weight of actual field evidence suggests that Lady Vegeta was bullshitting when she said Jaffur attacked her. Since if he was that bloodthirsty, against someone he outclassed that badly, then Berra would have been dead in that moment where he was twice as strong--that he didn't go for the vitals even when he was in a position where he should be every bit in a bloodrage is a sign that he probably didn't try to kill her.
 
Alectai said:
To be fair, the weight of actual field evidence suggests that Lady Vegeta was bullshitting when she said Jaffur attacked her. Since if he was that bloodthirsty, against someone he outclassed that badly, then Berra would have been dead in that moment where he was twice as strong--that he didn't go for the vitals even when he was in a position where he should be every bit in a bloodrage is a sign that he probably didn't try to kill her.
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She was wounded enough that mom and dad thought it was a likely possibility and she is his mother. I find it more likely that she thought he would kill her rather than her bullshitting as you put it. Or that he was threatening with violence into undoing Vegeta's sealing and she was afraid he would go too far by accident or that he would do so in rage once she continued to refuse. I think she was clear enough on that.
 
Alectai said:
To be fair, the weight of actual field evidence suggests that Lady Vegeta was bullshitting when she said Jaffur attacked her. Since if he was that bloodthirsty, against someone he outclassed that badly, then Berra would have been dead in that moment where he was twice as strong--that he didn't go for the vitals even when he was in a position where he should be every bit in a bloodrage is a sign that he probably didn't try to kill her.
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You think she wounded herself in order to convince Berra that Jaffur attacked her? Because someone had to inflict these wounds, and I find it perfectly plausible that Jaffur would attack her from taking away his revenge. In addition, right now I'm not actually completely sure that Jaffur deliberately choose to spare Berra. I don't think he was specifically trying to kill him either, but it's entirely possible that Jaffur wasn't holding back and that his power was simply to low to kill Berra with a single uncharged attack by the time the fight ended (again, I don't think he actually wanted to kill Berra, but I'm not sure he'd be able to afford holding back).

Of course, Jaffur probably wasn't trying to kill Dandeer, or she wouldn't have had time to wipe his memories of the last hour before being killed, but, well, him attacking her actually makes sense.
 
Big difference between a guy acting out under a legitimate cause who's already under a fuckton of stress, and "He's a monster and completely out of control and needs to be sealed now"

Since everyone here seems to forget, if Jaffur actually wanted to kill Dandeer, she would not have survived. He's capable of exceeding even Berra--if only for a split second.

She very much shaded the truth heavily, assuming she didn't outright lie. The little bit we got from the invistext where Jaffur was being sealed strongly supports that she set this up so she could get control of him.

But that's metagame thought. At the very least, Berra was convinced enough of Jaffur's danger that he was willing to get involved in overthrowing his rival household. That suggests that he's either too stupid to have gotten his position in the first place, or that Dandeer pulled all of his levers to get exactly the results she wanted, which puts her in a position of power, and has the threat now of a fate worse than death that she can wave around to ensure compliance.
 
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Alectai said:
Big difference between a guy acting out under a legitimate cause who's already under a fuckton of stress, and "He's a monster and completely out of control and needs to be sealed now"

Since everyone here seems to forget, if Jaffur actually wanted to kill Dandeer, she would not have survived. He's capable of exceeding even Berra--if only for a split second.

She very much shaded the truth heavily, assuming she didn't outright lie. The little bit we got from the invistext where Jaffur was being sealed strongly supports that she set this up so she could get control of him.

But that's metagame thought. At the very least, Berra was convinced enough of Jaffur's danger that he was willing to get involved in overthrowing his rival household. That suggests that he's either too stupid to have gotten his position in the first place, or that Dandeer pulled all of his levers to get exactly the results she wanted, which puts her in a position of power, and has the threat now of a fate worse than death that she can wave around to ensure compliance.
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I figured one of the demands that could be leveled against her for acting against the Head and Scion of her house could either be needing to Seal her own powers or making her step down from acting Head of clan Vegeta. Hopefully either would hamstring her enough to prevent her from acting. We'd have to get a clan Goku Sorcerer involved in the former though just to make sure she actually did so though.
 
Alectai said:
Big difference between a guy acting out under a legitimate cause who's already under a fuckton of stress, and "He's a monster and completely out of control and needs to be sealed now"

Since everyone here seems to forget, if Jaffur actually wanted to kill Dandeer, she would not have survived. He's capable of exceeding even Berra--if only for a split second.

She very much shaded the truth heavily, assuming she didn't outright lie. The little bit we got from the invistext where Jaffur was being sealed strongly supports that she set this up so she could get control of him.

But that's metagame thought. At the very least, Berra was convinced enough of Jaffur's danger that he was willing to get involved in overthrowing his rival household. That suggests that he's either too stupid to have gotten his position in the first place, or that Dandeer pulled all of his levers to get exactly the results she wanted, which puts her in a position of power, and has the threat now of a fate worse than death that she can wave around to ensure compliance.
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You make this sound like it was some sort of plot to take over Clan Vegeta, which I very much doubt it was. Firstly, while I don't think Jaffur was trying to kill Dandeer or was some kind of natural mosnter due to this heritage (I still think Dandeer's beliefes about Vegeta's line tainting both Lord Vegeta and Jaffur was a way to cope with Lord Vegeta's violent behavior), Dandeer was, for understandable reasons, not acting rationally at the moment. Firstly, her abusive husband nearly kills her eight(nine?)-year old son, and when she does something to prevent Lord Vegeta from further abusing her and Jaffur, her eight-year old son beats the crap out of her. Since I think the reason Jaffur attacked her was because she had denied him his revenge, if he actually stated that reason out loud, I don't think that'd make Dandeer believe Jaffur's less fucked up.

Personally I believe Dandeer's plan was to make her, Lord Vegeta, Jaffur and his sister into a happy family, and if there was any motive for sealing Jaffur other than genuine belief that he'd eventually turn into a copy of Lord Vegeta otherwise, it was the realization that he'd never forgive his father, not some desire to become the leader of Clan Vegeta.
 
Ok, this started as me disagreeing with @Alectai and ended with me agreeing that I was wrong about some things but still maybe defending Berra and Dandeer, so... I am not really sure where this goes anymore and if it seems like I change my mind mid-post it is probable that I did. Also, I am sorry for any gramatical errors, this computer is working really slow and decided to autocorrect in Spanish. I eventually grew frustrated and decided to post as it is.

Read at your own risk.

Alectai said:
Big difference between a guy acting out under a legitimate cause who's already under a fuckton of stress, and "He's a monster and completely out of control and needs to be sealed now"

Since everyone here seems to forget, if Jaffur actually wanted to kill Dandeer, she would not have survived. He's capable of exceeding even Berra--if only for a split second.

She very much shaded the truth heavily, assuming she didn't outright lie. The little bit we got from the invistext where Jaffur was being sealed strongly supports that she set this up so she could get control of him.

But that's metagame thought. At the very least, Berra was convinced enough of Jaffur's danger that he was willing to get involved in overthrowing his rival household. That suggests that he's either too stupid to have gotten his position in the first place, or that Dandeer pulled all of his levers to get exactly the results she wanted, which puts her in a position of power, and has the threat now of a fate worse than death that she can wave around to ensure compliance.
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I was going to make an argument about how of course he wouln't have killed her if he wanted her to revert the sealing but then I checked lady Vegeta's argument and realized that was not the case. That said, I think you might be overstimating how fast it would be, especially if he was angry and wanted her hurt before killing her. Now, this is what Dandeer says regarding Jaffur:
PoptartProdigy said:
"No." She collects herself, taking gasping breaths. "No, that's not why. Because I need your help to do that same...to Jaffur."

Your eyes widen, and a shock shoots through your body.

"What?" says Mom. "Why would we do that? Jaffur is just a boy!"

"Kala, I just told you that I Sealed my husband as he slept. Do you think a human managed to break both of my arms and flatten my left lung? A Sorceress I may be, but I could still turn this planet into ash if I wanted."

You go deadly still.

"I thought it was Vegeta," says Dad, his voice vacant with horror. "I thought..."

"Jaffur has been showing the same signs," she says, voice bitter. "When I told him what I had done...he flew into a rage and did this to me. It was all I could do to wipe his memory of the last hour and guide him back to bed before I passed out. Even most of the way to dead, he can still break me over his knee. And he did that to me, Berra. Kakara he treated like spun glass, so careful to knock her out and nothing more, Kakara he refused to spar because it wasn't fair, but he was charging a blast to pierce my heart when I stopped him. Look at what Vegeta did to my baby, Berra. Look at what he's made of my son."

"He was going to kill you?" asks Dad.

"I know that blast. Beyond Jaffur's strength, Vegeta has never cared about the boy's training, but I know his form. He's so bright..." Her voice drifts off before righting itself. "He invented it, you know. From the ground up. What he was charging was the same ray he fired in front of Kakara's nose the day you arrived."

"I thought it was a Dodonpa."

"No. Dodonpas don't pack as much power as that blast does. He calls it the Focus Ray. All he could think to call it, I suppose. He was so literal-minded, when he was six. No, the Focus Ray pierces, like the Death Beams Freeza apparently used. It's almost like a sped-up Makankosappo. It would have gone through my heart and taken a chunk out of the apartment's ki shield afterwards."

"Your own son tried to kill you?"

"His father has broken him, Berra. Whatever Jaffur was going to be, he's lost it now. I need to Seal him, too." She takes a breath. "Better a human son, than an insane one. Better that he can grow up and grow old, free of what his father has done to him. Let him be happy, Berra."
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So he put the hurt on her and she made him sleep when he was charging a ki blast. His speed was affected by his wounds and he likely wasn't thinking straight enough to realice letting a sorceress speak is a bad idea. For all we know, he went all "any last words?" on her or wanted to give her the opportunity to beg.

Just as a reminder, he was like this:

PoptartProdigy said:
But when somebody finally has the bravery to fly over to the crater and pull Jaffur out of it, you realize how truly easy his father let him off last night.

Jaffur's power level is wavering on the edge of fifty thousand and he feels like he's on the edge of death. Half of his hair is singed away, his skin is a blackened crisp, and blood weeps from a hundred gaping wounds across his body. He's not conscious, which is merciful. He's barely breathing. His heart stutters through every single beat it makes and if you were afraid he was going to kill himself last night, it is an absolute certainty that he is going to die right now without medical help.

Then his mother appears.

Tears run openly down her face as her hands flash through an array of seals across her son's body. Otherworldly light pours over him as she struggles to keep him alive. He stirs, slightly, and then falls still, but it's a calmer sleep. She's stopped the bleeding, and he isn't dying anymore.

But you know ki healing, and that wasn't it.
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I suppose you could make an argument about him not being in his right mind since he was still wounded but even so, he beat and almost killed his mother and the situation does lend credence to why he didn't outright kill her. I don't think she is lying, @Alectai though I will be checking for the invisitext you mentioned later. Still, so far it seems like she had valid concerns as to how violent Jaffur was going to turn up when he grew up. This things tend to grow worse with time.

Ok. I checked the following chapters again. I will quote the part with the invisitext at the end later, however, in order to be fair, if you wanted to argue about Dandeer deceiving Berra, quoting the chapter before the sealing when she outrights states she did it might have been quicker (and saved me the time it took for me to realice I was wrong about that). To quote it:

PoptartProdigy said:
She is gold and glorious, and I know how I looked, when I transformed two nights ago. She is stronger than me again, and I wonder how many times we will cross each other.

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She is my last hope, and my greatest, shining champion. Somehow I knew it would come down to this. Holy, Penitent, and Saint, forgive me for deceiving Berra.

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My blood sings at a new challenger even as my mind recognizes her for the threat she is. But I will not be bound. I am a Saiyan of royal blood, and I will not be caged!

* * *
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I never needed Berra -- not that man with so much power and so little strength. It is so easy to hide behind your laws and fail to do the right thing. I'm sure he thinks he does good, but I didn't need that.

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There is something wrong with me, I know that very well. But that is nothing. If I must be a monster to save my Clan from worse, I'll pay that gladly. Someday the price will be paid. But that is not this day.

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No, she is what I need. I need her able to act, to protect. To do what Berra refused to. He will retreat to his Clan after this and I will never receive his support again. But she will never go back.

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She has regained her focus, and approaches. I will meet her as I must. It is a fight I will likely lose, but the chance -- oh, the chance! -- of victory whispers sweetly in my ear. She will test me.

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She moves now, as she must. She prepares to stop him. There is no chance of her losing. My son is mighty and skilled, but weakened. She will stop him.

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She will make me bleed and strive, and I will live in those moments. I will live, as living never truly is. I am ready, now. Let me live again.

* * *
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She will hurt him to save him, and redeem him through pain. And in his maddened rampage, he will fail. She will give me back my family.

* * *
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Test me, Scion.

* * *
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Stop him, Scion.
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Ok, this is what I get from this segment. In order from appearance:

a) Dandeer did indeed deceive Berra.
b) Even Jaffur knows there is something wrong with him. While the reason he decided to be a monster is, apparently, because he thinks he must for the greater good, he still decided to do so.
c) What Dandeer thinks she needs from Kakara does not seem like something someone who wants power for herself would think though it could be interpreted as her needing someone willing to act not just for clan Gokun but all the saiyans, specially since the vegeta clan lost its 2 supers.
d) Jaffur shares the love for battle the original Vegeta had.
e) More worrying is Dandeer's idea of Kakara redeming Jaffur. As is, she could be thinking of the sealing as a way to return him to the path of good but given that Berra said she was member of a cult the night before and their conversation then... it might be she thinks that we can 'fix' Jaffur like Goku fixed Vegeta.

Which... yeah. I think it is mostly Dandeer being desperate or delusional and wanting her family back to how it was before Vegeta changed for the worst and turned total asshole (since we know OOC he wasn't always like we saw him). Actually, we know it IC too since both Berra and Dandeer mentioned it the night before the sealing. Anyways:

PoptartProdigy said:
No, Jaffur breaks free simply to scream.
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta, the Scion of Vegeta.
Lady Vegeta starts crying, but continues her spell. "Paparapapa."
You are Prince Jaffur Vegeta.
Jaffur curls up on himself, wailing.
You are Jaffur Vegeta.
"It'll be over soon, Jaffur, I promise! Paparapapa!"
You are Jaffur.
"Please!" shouts Jaffur, writhing.
Jaffur.
In the distance, you Dad snags Betarel out of the air and tucks the boy under his arm.
Ja...Jaff...Jaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
"Let him go!" screams Betarel.
You are Jaron Somerlad.
Jaffur drops out of his transformation.
You are eight years old, and have a Mom, a Dad, and a little sister.
"Paparapapa!"
You sometimes resent your Dad, because he works so much and is gone so often, leaving you and your little sister alone.
Jaffur flickers between his base form and his Super Saiyan state, struggling to maintain control.
But your Mom is always there for you.
His eyes lock on you and he screams, "HELP ME!"
And you love her.
Lady Vegeta's hands twist through another array of seals. "Papara..."
You love her with all your heart.
Jaffur screams to the heavens, flashing back into his transformed state...
And nothing else is as important as that.
"PAPA!"
You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with all your heart. You love her. You love her with...
...and then he crashes down through his base state and into his Masque before slumping back on the sand, eyes fluttering shut.
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Now, as manipulative as it sounds to focus her mind altering spell into making him love her... there is Little reason for her to want to control Jaron Somerlad, human 8 years old. I think it more likely that she was simply desperate to have a loving family back rather than her being some sort of mastermind or wanting to take power of her clan.

As for Berra helping overthrow the leadership of the other clan, Dandeer did Paint pretty Grimm picture and threw on his face they wouldn't have helped her even though Vegeta beat the crap out of her and her son to the point of purposely causing a miscarriage and she implied he raped her. So guilt was definetely a factor and was predisposed to listen to her since he felt he was partlyresponsible of her sealing Vegeta. Then, on the matter of Jaffur, him eating his mother at 8 was not a good sign when it comes to how he would be later on, he wasn't predisposed towards him after he knocked Kakara out (and Dandeer did point out the difference in how Jaffur treated Kakara an how he treated his mother, pointing to the begining of an obsession right after she mentioned how Vegeta treated her) so he might be worried about that which explained why he told us he would protect us after that. Add to that that, even if he doesn't believe Dandeer's crap about saiyan heritage, Jaffur is Vegeta's son and he saw already his friend'ss ddescend to madness, then he does have reason to believe Jaffur is showing signs of the same.

You know what? I take back what I said. That was too perfect to be anything but Dandeer playing him like a fiddle. I still think you are being unfair to Berra by calling him an idiot, he did the best he could with the information avaiable to him even if said best was an epic fail. From what he knew he could either help Dandeer or do nothing and risk Jaffur turning out like Vegeta, which seemed likely once he started to draw parallels. He probably thinks that fake happiness is better tan them turning into monsters that bring misery to themselves and those around them.

I am still on board with saving Jaffur and opposing Lady Vegeta but I can't really bring myself to vilify the opposition. I can see where they come from and the whole deal was mostly about choosing the best from a bunch of bad options. They think they did the right thing and I doubt there were bad ulterior motives. Plus, while I think that how it was handled was a mistake, that is born from us having an outside perspective; I don't know if I would think the same if I were inside the story and pt on Berra's situation. I wouldn't have been able to live with myself if I refused and something happened because of Jaffur's obsession with power and battle.
 
Y'know, I wonder if Goku's mind-reading 'Muffin Button' trick from Namek got carried forward. If so, I'm sure that use of it is highly restricted...but I'm sure Berra could use it on Lady Vegeta. Of course if she opposes this invasion of privacy by Lord Goku, she can, of course, complain to Lord Veget....oh. Oh, crap.

So she could protest to Scion Veget....oh. Well, I'm sure that the previous Lord Vegeta isn't upset about his son being mind fucked and will totally support her in not having her mind read.

Of course, she's a mage, so I think we need to get this set up well before we spring it on her.

I wonder how Kakara is at written communication?
 
KaintukeeBob said:
Y'know, I wonder if Goku's mind-reading 'Muffin Button' trick from Namek got carried forward. If so, I'm sure that use of it is highly restricted...but I'm sure Berra could use it on Lady Vegeta. Of course if she opposes this invasion of privacy by Lord Goku, she can, of course, complain to Lord Veget....oh. Oh, crap.

So she could protest to Scion Veget....oh. Well, I'm sure that the previous Lord Vegeta isn't upset about his son being mind fucked and will totally support her in not having her mind read.

Of course, she's a mage, so I think we need to get this set up well before we spring it on her.

I wonder how Kakara is at written communication?
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Yes, Berra knows the mind delve technique. He used it on Kakara to see where we dropped the unconscious lady Vegeta.
 
Bommelom said:
You think she wounded herself in order to convince Berra that Jaffur attacked her? Because someone had to inflict these wounds, and I find it perfectly plausible that Jaffur would attack her from taking away his revenge. In addition, right now I'm not actually completely sure that Jaffur deliberately choose to spare Berra. I don't think he was specifically trying to kill him either, but it's entirely possible that Jaffur wasn't holding back and that his power was simply to low to kill Berra with a single uncharged attack by the time the fight ended (again, I don't think he actually wanted to kill Berra, but I'm not sure he'd be able to afford holding back).

Of course, Jaffur probably wasn't trying to kill Dandeer, or she wouldn't have had time to wipe his memories of the last hour before being killed, but, well, him attacking her actually makes sense.
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I would highlight that Jaffur had a VERY precise grip of how much power he's smiting someone with, to smack US into the point of exactly as much damage we needed to get the right power boost, without concern of death.

Even when angry as hell he's definitely under control when he fought.
Heck, given that he'd have been far more certain to stay free if he fought to kill, he was intentionally working under a handicap.
 
While you all debate, vote tally.

Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] No, they're not true.
No. of votes: 12
Rmnimoc, Teen Spirit, veekie, ChildishChimera, Jazzberry, Bommelom, Thor, Bakkasama, Dr. Dinosaur, Tackyseven, Zuduke, SailorOfMyVessel

[X] No, they're not true.
No. of votes: 1
Derkan

[X] No, they're not true
[X]--But there's not really anything we can do about it right now without playing into Lady Vegeta's hands. She pulled Father over a barrel by playing on how I got beat up while pushing Jaffur to Ascend--she lied to him, and he believed her enough that he was willing to hold me down while she did this. I will make this right somehow, I just need to figure out how to do it without destroying us as a people.
No. of votes: 11
Alectai, Nathaniel Wolff, KaintukeeBob, KnightDisciple, Kairos123, ApocalypticFish, Walkin' Man, Ct613hulu, Scotchtape27, dunk1010, Icefyre

[X] No, they're not true.
-[X] I was trying to stop it, but I wasn't as strong as dad. I think it's a bad thing there's now no one to keep him in check, he got this wrong.
No. of votes: 2
Terrabrand, Aranfan

As a reminder, I will not count the 12-vote option, the 2-vote option, and the 11-vote option together. Since it's so close I'll leave this open for today to catch any last-minute changes (and also I'm at my in-laws, so I'm a bit busy anyway). If you want one of the proposed sub-votes, cast your vote now!
 
[X] No, they're not true
[X]--But there's not really anything we can do about it right now without playing into Lady Vegeta's hands. She pulled Father over a barrel by playing on how I got beat up while pushing Jaffur to Ascend--she lied to him, and he believed her enough that he was willing to hold me down while she did this. I will make this right somehow, I just need to figure out how to do it without destroying us as a people.
 
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