Dragon Ball: After the End
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Amending Plan v3 so that your bit is included by default, @anailater. Good thinking.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
[X] Plan Time To Threaten.
-[X] Cabba and you both shoot up to just over 1M.
-[X] Tell the enemy to stand down and go talk with our leader like a civilized being, or you both destroy him, here and now.
-[X] Should this fail:
---[X] Plan Not Again v3
-[X] Should this succeed:
---[X] IT him over to the Training Hall.
-[X] Cabba and you both shoot up to just over 1M.
-[X] Tell the enemy to stand down and go talk with our leader like a civilized being, or you both destroy him, here and now.
-[X] Should this fail:
---[X] Plan Not Again v3
-[X] Should this succeed:
---[X] IT him over to the Training Hall.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Ridiculously Average Guy
The way you have that phrased suggests that if talking down the scout after hitting power level one million doesn't work, THEN you want to try "Not Again v3." That doesn't make a lot of sense, since your plan would make "Not Again v3" totally redundant in every detail. By powering both Cabba and Kakara up to one million, you make the whole "have Cabba pretend to hulk out using dangerous forbidden technique" gimmick redundant.
You accomplish exactly what version 3 does of giving Kakara enough raw power to put down the scout if you cannot otherwise protect Maya... but that was our last resort in "Not Again v3," it's not something you'd do by default. If we go with "Time to Threaten," The objective of keeping Maya from realizing that she's the weakest ki user on the planet (with the exception of toddlers and lazy children neglecting their practice) will utterly fail, and you don't really have a backup plan for explaining things away to Maya..
...
On a separate issue, Maya is literally about to flying tackle the scout; I'm pretty sure we only have subjective seconds in which to act before she does so. If you take time for the scout to see reason, Maya's likely to smack into him.
Given that he's a giant dinosaur-thing with a power level of 300,000 he can laugh that off, of course. And he's certainly shown a history of being willing to use minimum force on obviously weak opponents, so there's reason to hope he'll be gentle with Maya. But he just powered up precisely so he could end things, so he might just use lethal force on Maya, especially since without a scouter he has no idea how strong Maya is or whether Maya is powerful enough to present a threat to him. Plus, he can't predict whether more fighters will be showing up to oppose him soon, and he can't be all that confident about what will happen if he winds up fighting a whole platoon of people with power levels between 80 and 200 thousand.
Your plan doesn't really address that as written.
...
Or did you mean that if your plan doesn't win the vote, you want to endorse "Not Again v3?" I'm kind of confused.
The way you have that phrased suggests that if talking down the scout after hitting power level one million doesn't work, THEN you want to try "Not Again v3." That doesn't make a lot of sense, since your plan would make "Not Again v3" totally redundant in every detail. By powering both Cabba and Kakara up to one million, you make the whole "have Cabba pretend to hulk out using dangerous forbidden technique" gimmick redundant.
You accomplish exactly what version 3 does of giving Kakara enough raw power to put down the scout if you cannot otherwise protect Maya... but that was our last resort in "Not Again v3," it's not something you'd do by default. If we go with "Time to Threaten," The objective of keeping Maya from realizing that she's the weakest ki user on the planet (with the exception of toddlers and lazy children neglecting their practice) will utterly fail, and you don't really have a backup plan for explaining things away to Maya..
...
On a separate issue, Maya is literally about to flying tackle the scout; I'm pretty sure we only have subjective seconds in which to act before she does so. If you take time for the scout to see reason, Maya's likely to smack into him.
Given that he's a giant dinosaur-thing with a power level of 300,000 he can laugh that off, of course. And he's certainly shown a history of being willing to use minimum force on obviously weak opponents, so there's reason to hope he'll be gentle with Maya. But he just powered up precisely so he could end things, so he might just use lethal force on Maya, especially since without a scouter he has no idea how strong Maya is or whether Maya is powerful enough to present a threat to him. Plus, he can't predict whether more fighters will be showing up to oppose him soon, and he can't be all that confident about what will happen if he winds up fighting a whole platoon of people with power levels between 80 and 200 thousand.
Your plan doesn't really address that as written.
...
Or did you mean that if your plan doesn't win the vote, you want to endorse "Not Again v3?" I'm kind of confused.
- Location
- USA
[X] Plan Not Again v3
Totally fine having my vote counted towards whatever Not Again plan if needed to put it in the lead over an opposing plan.
Totally fine having my vote counted towards whatever Not Again plan if needed to put it in the lead over an opposing plan.
Ridiculously Average Guy
I'm you, but stronger
- Location
-
[X] Plan Not Again v3
- Location
- Australia
@PoptartProdigy, please for the love of all that is good update faster. The last update was not enjoyable to read. In fact, it was painful to do so. Not only was the content itself difficult to read, to the point where I half skim-read it to get it over with as soon as possible, but the fact that the update took so long to come only made it worse. "I waited this long just for this to happen!?" is a good summation of what it feels like. Now, the sooner we get the new update, the faster we can get past this entire mess and get this horrendous taste out of my mouth.
Also, please take note that I do NOT blame you for what happened. I just want to move on as fast as possible.
Also, please take note that I do NOT blame you for what happened. I just want to move on as fast as possible.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I think it took a while because it was also painful to write.
NegativeJ
LOVE
- Location
- Est
Are you sure? Poptart might be a secret sadist...
[X] Plan Not Again v2
-[X]If v2 does not win put vote into v3
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
May I ask what about v2 you prefer to v3? I'm curious about feedback, since I did try to make v3 a straight improvement over v2 based off other people's feedback, at least in my own eyes.
[EDIT: To be clear, what I mean is that I tried to look at the things others were listing as objections to the plan and mitigate them]
[EDIT: To be clear, what I mean is that I tried to look at the things others were listing as objections to the plan and mitigate them]
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ElleonXan
Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires
- Location
- USA
@PoptartProdigy, I can't seem to recall this coming up before in this thread, and have seen it go both ways in other threads, so I was wondering: since it seems to have happened several times on this page, any chance that we can get a ruling by you on vote nesting... i.e. casting multiple votes at once by "nesting" them inside each other as conditionals of the previous vote failing to win?
For example:
[Example] Plan A
- [Example] Unless Plan A doesn't win, in which case change my vote to Plan B
-- [Example] Unless both of the above plans don't win, in which case change my vote to Plan C
EDIT: changed some wording for clarity
For example:
[Example] Plan A
- [Example] Unless Plan A doesn't win, in which case change my vote to Plan B
-- [Example] Unless both of the above plans don't win, in which case change my vote to Plan C
EDIT: changed some wording for clarity
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NegativeJ
LOVE
- Location
- Est
I don't have much time, need to make a poster about why it was right to exterminate the mushroom people.
I don't see much change just more definition... So basically:Meh...
They are the same plan... Just different wording... or in the case of my version: G Gundam....
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Comment replies eat up page space and look worryingly like spaghetti, so spoilered. I also was told that spoilers trick OP word-alert tags. Here's hoping.
They're finding it difficult to communicate with their son at the moment, but his isolation is actually the thread's fault. More on that just below.
As much salt as you please.
[I loved that tidbit. I just threw it in on impulse, but it works.]
I thought it was apparent, but Mato has vanished because of his new research project. Something to latch onto as a concrete means to being special? He's gone mad with it. As to whether or not he's interested enough to spite his own laziness...who knows?
Her saiyan cap is 375 million, being an FPSSJ; it boosts base power too. Thus, in Masque her PL is 300 million. This is all in the character sheet, of course.
Yup.
Painful indeed. I don't enjoy writing my protagonist's losing. I plan on closing the update in the next few hours, yes. Definitely before I sleep.
Well, it's indirectly due to Kakara, but it's also objectively terrible parenting on Berra and Kala's part, in addition to being inept kingship on Berra's part. Sure, Kakara is one of thesixfour most powerful beings on the planet, and sure it is very, very hard to die in a world with senzu beans... But it's not impossible. Something could happen to her in the 10-20 years before she has an heir, and then Mato would be the scion. Just because he's the second son doesn't mean his training isn't important.
Uh right. I should be taking that bit about 'relays through metaphor and hypotheticals' with a grain of salt the size of the combined pudding consumption of the exile community, shouldn't I?
[I still love how you have that one family whose entire income stream comes from pudding sales, and Kakara is like "wait how" then remembers "oh right marketing to saiyans."
They're finding it difficult to communicate with their son at the moment, but his isolation is actually the thread's fault. More on that just below.
As much salt as you please.
[I loved that tidbit. I just threw it in on impulse, but it works.
]I thought it was apparent, but Mato has vanished because of his new research project. Something to latch onto as a concrete means to being special? He's gone mad with it. As to whether or not he's interested enough to spite his own laziness...who knows?
Her saiyan cap is 375 million, being an FPSSJ; it boosts base power too. Thus, in Masque her PL is 300 million. This is all in the character sheet, of course.
Yup.
Painful indeed. I don't enjoy writing my protagonist's losing. I plan on closing the update in the next few hours, yes. Definitely before I sleep.
Blergh. That'd be a mess under the current system. If I want to introduce something like that -- and I am considering it -- I'll do ranked voting instead.
ElleonXan
Self-Proclaimed King of the Dumpster Fires
- Location
- USA
Maybe, but at the same time it sets a precident where you can nest votes. Just because it's used now for plans that are functionally similar doesn't mean it always will be.
Also, it sets situations up that are hell to tally, like the situation right now: you voted V2, then V3... but earlier @anailater voted for V3, then V2. In the case of tallying, whose nested vote has higher priority? And say plans V2 and V3 are tied to win... which one benefits from the triggered vote switching first? Because whichever one goes last wins by default, unless they both trigger at the same time, in which case you've achieved nothing as the vote is still tied.
(I'm sorry for pulling you into this, anailater, but I needed to use you as an example and figured it wasn't very fair to reference you without tagging you to let you know I did so.)
Now as I've said, I've seen it done both ways and if it is, in fact, allowed it won't be that much of a deal-breaker for me. I'll still enjoy this amazing quest just as much as I always have.
But as you can probably tell I'd personally really rather vote nesting be disallowed. I personally find it to be unfair, as to accurately tally a nested vote, you have to assume votes for every plan or option in the nested vote, even though technically only the winning or last vote really "gets the vote."
PRE-POSTING EDIT: And ninja'd by our illustrious author.
Honestly, I dislike the leading plan. Once again, we fail to negotiate. Once again we keep on lying to Maya, which will just cause issues in the long run. We're relying on Cabba passing a Deceit check again, we're bringing the Scout under the wards, pretty much ensuring the scout will be killed to keep things secret etc etc.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...Okay, I don't remember us ever getting an answer on this. But if we CAN donate ki to other people, that is a HUGE game-changer in terms of which vote options make sense. If we could pump Maya up to 300,000 or 400,000 so we were reasonably sure this alien scout couldn't just rip her apart, we wouldn't need to worry so much about her safety, and then Kakara and Cabba could ratchet up to a similar level- which would permit us to stop him.
@PoptartProdigy , is it or is it not possible for us to donate ki to Maya to bring her up to that level temporarily? If she'd know we were doing it that's... okay, we can sort it out later. The point of the exercise would just be to make sure she doesn't die trying to fight this guy while the saiyans stop him.
1) NOT attempt to modify the plan, which gives an awfully big advantage to the people who happen to be around to stick up for their plans and edit them to attract more support.
2) Attempt to modify the plan, and have to worry about vote splitting, and absurd scenarios where a plan passes with, say, 30% support not because of vote weighting but because 60-70% of the voter base all wanted to do the same thing, but couldn't agree on which of two or three closely related versions of the same plan to vote on.
If KaintukeeBob were around to either edit his original plan, or at least SPEAK about the plan, I wouldn't have put that "if this doesn't win, count this as a vote for #2" thing in. I wouldn't have to, because I wouldn't be worried about this problem. KB could edit his own plan, or propose a new one, and that would be that.
If this is bad etiquette no one has ever told me about it, and if so, then there really does need to be some mechanism for resolving the underlying problem.
@PoptartProdigy , is it or is it not possible for us to donate ki to Maya to bring her up to that level temporarily? If she'd know we were doing it that's... okay, we can sort it out later. The point of the exercise would just be to make sure she doesn't die trying to fight this guy while the saiyans stop him.
I wouldn't be doing it except that this is specifically the result of people trying to iteratively improve on a plan, which is a very common thing for people to do in quests. The original quest author isn't around to make the modifications, so my choices are:
1) NOT attempt to modify the plan, which gives an awfully big advantage to the people who happen to be around to stick up for their plans and edit them to attract more support.
2) Attempt to modify the plan, and have to worry about vote splitting, and absurd scenarios where a plan passes with, say, 30% support not because of vote weighting but because 60-70% of the voter base all wanted to do the same thing, but couldn't agree on which of two or three closely related versions of the same plan to vote on.
If KaintukeeBob were around to either edit his original plan, or at least SPEAK about the plan, I wouldn't have put that "if this doesn't win, count this as a vote for #2" thing in. I wouldn't have to, because I wouldn't be worried about this problem. KB could edit his own plan, or propose a new one, and that would be that.
If this is bad etiquette no one has ever told me about it, and if so, then there really does need to be some mechanism for resolving the underlying problem.
In that case, what would you rather do if, for example... There are six votes for "Plan A Version 2," eight votes for "Plan A Version 3" that is a slightly modified version of Plan A suggested after the author of Version 2 went to bed, and nine votes for "Plan B" that is significantly different from both versions of A?
Changing a plan that has been voted for without permission can be seen as rude and/or unfair, yes.
And the mechanism is called time.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
We can.
Check the comment replies, I checked before proposing my plan just in case
NegativeJ
LOVE
- Location
- Est
@PoptartProdigy Is the true enemy... Senator Armstrong?
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
In order:
and,
I would get a headache and contemplate executions.
More seriously, if the Av3 votes were different enough from the Av2 votes that they would produce a materially different result in the update, then I would count them separately. If not, I would merge them. Plan B would then be counted against them as normal.No, I have not read the votes in question yet.
In other news, I have a firm deadline for close of vote; no later than 12:00 pm Eastern Standard Time. This is so that people can resolve the mess of conditional votes. Strip 'em out, folks. Heck, leave them in if you like; just be aware that I intend to ignore them. I'm not doing the conditionals game; I'm not going to read through every individual vote for if/then sub-votes. It is a colossal headache for me.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Which is why I wasn't changing the plan, I was suggesting a modified version after extended discussion for multiple pages and several hours of the thread. It sounds like you're trying to tell me you think it's rude to propose amended versions of other people's plans.Changing a plan that has been voted for without permission can be seen as rude and/or unfair, yes.
And the mechanism is called time.
Really?
Furthermore, since time is not unlimited and since a lot of people have sleep and work schedules that mean they can only participate meaningfully in a vote discussion for specific 4-8 hour windows out of every 24 hours (further complicated by us having people in a lot of different time zones), there has to be some level of compromise. Suppose discussion starts at hour H. Fred posts a plan at hour H+12 (late in the local evening). He goes to sleep, wakes up the next morning and goes to work, with little or no opportunity to check in on the discussion. Meanwhile, people spend 12 hours picking Plan Fred to pieces and post a plan at hour H+24 that picks up a pile of votes. Fred comes back from work H+30 (local afternoon or early evening) and realizes his plan's been torpedoed... and the vote closes at Hour H+36.
It's too late for him to respond effectively to the many hours of discussion that have taken place. It's too late for him to propose changes to his plan. Fred may well be at a strategic disadvantage due to just plain being in the wrong time zone. He ends up losing every debate by default, just by not being able to be there during a key window of time.
Any reasonable standard of voting etiquette needs to take that into account.
Anyway, pardon my ignorance and trying to participate in something I appear to be unqualified for. All I can do is make good faith calls based on the information available.
I have personally been convinced that there is an option markedly superior to the "Not Again" plans, and which I didn't know existed at the time that said plans were drafted. I have no intention of sabotaging anyone else's vote or anything along those lines, but the "ki-boost Maya so she doesn't die while Kakara and Cabba take down the alien scout" plan is much simpler and about as likely to work, maybe more so. So I'm going to vote for that plan. Hopefully that won't screw anyone else's vote up.
@Sucal , I'm going to rearrange the elements of your plan a bit so they make more sense in order to me. Among other things because as written, I'm not sure tallying systems will read it correctly. Also because as written it may result in Maya smacking into a giant dinosaur that outpowers her 3:1 and getting her head torn off before we get around to boosting her, because we're too busy negotiating with the scout while Maya is attacking.
My reasoning is, Kakara can power up very fast, Kakara can empower Maya very fast. Cabba MAY be able to do that, but if he refuses or if he can't do it, it doesn't matter so much if we've already done it once. Maya powered at 400,000 will at least have enough durability to survive against the scout while we press on. Once the scout is up against yet another fast-strong-underskilled opponent, PLUS Kakara,
Maya with a double charge might well be strong enough to win this despite the scout's proven track record of holding off a stronger opponent (Kakara)- but we're doing well as long as Maya doesn't die and we have a viable plan for beating the scout that doesn't involve anyone powering up to stupid levels (i.e. several million).
Either way, once we've given Maya enough ki to survive her own reckless charge, then we ask for the scout's surrender.
[X] Plan Shonen 2
-[X] Power up to 800k
-[X] Empower Maya with 400k of our Ki.
-[X] Have Cabba do the same.
-[X] Ask for the Scout's surrender.
Well, that's a nasty surprise. Apparently, the site's built-in vote tabulator doesn't ignore votes in quote boxes. To make things clear, and because I apparently have to devote the vote (huh, that's interesting- I wonder what's the etymology behind that) I was entrusted with to the lesser evil with a chance of passing:
[X] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.
[X] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah; that's why I try to take pains to 'sanitize' any votes I quote by snipping the X's out...
[grumbles]
I may disagree with you but I definitely sympathize with our struggles against the common enemy- the vote tallying software.
No? Honestly, I'm having trouble understanding what you're saying, period. It looked like you were suggesting that Kaintukee should alter his plan but keep the name.Which is why I wasn't changing the plan, I was suggesting a modified version after extended discussion for multiple pages and several hours of the thread. It sounds like you're trying to tell me you think it's rude to propose amended versions of other people's plans.
Really?
...I can safely say I did not understand a word you said. I'm not sure whether that's you, my disorder playing up again or my brain being mush due to the events of the past week.
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