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Dragon Ball: After the End

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Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Mar 31, 2017 at 4:35 PM, finished with 10425 posts and 18 votes.
  • [X] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.
    [X] Plan Not Again v2
    [X] Plan Not Again v2
    -[X] Communicate with Cabba and Dad about this plan
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Power Growth x 10!!!"
    --[X] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
    ---[X] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
    --[X] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
    --[X] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
    ---[X] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
    ---[X] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
    -[X] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
    -[X] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
    --[X] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.
    [X] Grab Maya before she gets herself killed and get her to the location she's cleared to know about which will most cloud her ki senses of the battle. Since the scout appears reluctant to kill, especially children, tell him we're pulling her out and disengaging if his cooperation would let us get her clear with less of a display. Use solar flare, IT, and/or whatever power levels are necessary. Order Cabba to track the scout, but avoid engaging until Berra shows up. He's cleared to match the alien's power level if that's what it takes, but try to keep it as far down as he can without endangering himself. Tell Maya to stay put, then return to Cabba. Telepathic multimedia sitrep dump to Berra and request ETA if he's already committed, then player prompt for how to reengage.
    [X] Plan: You WILL have peace. One way...or another.
    -[X] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
    --[X] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargaining table.
    ---[X] But if that fails....power up that sheer most extend that the Masque allows and break the scout. Break him so that you don't have to kill him. Start with his limbs and work your way to his spine. Dust his bones and tear his muscles. Any injury can fixed, given enough time and resources, but you cannot allow this to deteriorate any further.
    [X] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
    -[X] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
    [X] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
    -[X] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
    --[X] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargining table.
    [X] Plan Not Again
    -[X] Communicate with Cabba and Dad
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Kaio-Ken x 10"
    --[X] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
    ---[X] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
    --[X] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
    --[X] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
    ---[X] Recommend he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
    ---[X] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
    -[X] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
    -[X] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
    --[X] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.
    [X] Plan Not Again Version: Negative J ElctricBoogaloo
    -[X] Communicate with Cabba and Dad
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 200,000 while screaming "This hand of mine glows with an awesome power!", while gathering power in Cabba's hand
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 400,000 while screaming "Its burning grip tells me to defeat you!", forming it into a finger energy saber.
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 600,000 while screaming "TAKE THIS!", starting to swing the thing around like a crazy person.
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 700,000 while screaming "MY LOVE, MY ANGER, AND ALL OF MY SORROW!", pointing it at the Alien.
    --[X] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "SHINING FINGER!", will start attacking the alien.
    --[X] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw AWSOMENSS to hold him in place
    ---[X] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
    --[X] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
    --[X] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
    ---[X] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
    ---[X] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
    -[X] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
    -[X] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
    --[X] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.
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After some careful thought, I'm going to have to go with:

[X] Flee the field with Cabba and Maya in tow. Know when to fold in a fight.

While I'm not against the current plans, per se, in light of the recent FUBAR situation I feel like we're somewhat falling into the trap of overcomplication again... trying too hard to micromanage the actions and eventualities that we're locking ourselves into plans that might turn out to have unforseen consequences. Sure, we can quantify all sort of eventualities, but those all fall to the wayside the moment the unexpected comes up.

In short, I think this time I'll go for a shorter, more open ended choice and trust that our illustrious author knows better how to write the characters than I do.

Not to mention that with our current mental confusion and self-doubt, I don't think attempting to initiate hostilities is a good idea.
 
So reading through the discussions I have to wonder why people think Maya will never find out anything?

That said I guess I really have no choice, still think starting diplomacy here is a great way for it to not work out properly but I care more about Maya than the rest of the situation and while I could tolerate the lies we told so far as necessary not willing to add even more. Fleeing would be acceptable as only action but considering the way GM has set things up so far I am guessing it will run into issues somehow.

[X] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
-[X] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
[X] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
-[X] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
--[X] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargining table.
 
@Lailoken , I think you may be getting a bit mixed up about whose plans are whose. Or maybe I'm not understanding you.

Gore 's plan (the one strauss just voted for) is "in character" in that it follows vote weighting (that is to say, it gives in to "Hot Blooded" rather than resisting it). It hopefully has the advantage of terrifying the alien scout into submission (ending the fight and allowing negotiation). But it ALSO completely blows away any hope of us convincing Maya that she is anything other than a newborn child in terms of her current power level. It does not, however, reveal any hidden techniques; it just involves Kakara cranking up her power level as high as she possibly can without making Maya wonder why she just grew a tail.

@strauss , to answer your question, you are totally right that Maya is going to figure out some things soon, like "we're more powerful than we let on." However, this is not the time to do that if we can avoid it. The real challenge here isn't subduing the scout, it's minimizing the need for damage control and minimizing the damage done to Maya's willingness to trust us.

@KaintukeeBob 's plan is in the process of being amended to NOT reveal any secret/infohazard techniques. It DOES disrupt Berra's plan, but quite frankly there was no way to avoid doing that given that the alien scout is too tough to be subdued by people fighting at or below Maya's current power level. We can't fight at 80,000 and take down a giant lizard-man whose (transformed) power level is 300,000. Following Berra's plan at this point would result in Maya being endangered or even killed, which would in turn wreck Berra's plan.
 
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If someone else is willing to vote for the Gore17 plan I'll switch to it as well. My voting for bugging out was mostly tactical.
 
Aranfan said:
Fuck Berra's plan.

Berra's plan was getting Cabbage killed.
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I'm talking about his long term plan (allow saiyans to move about Masqued on Garenhuld without having to pretend ki isn't a thing), not his short term plan (soft-pedal everyone's powers so that Maya looks like the strongest person on the planet).

His short term plan was doomed the moment the scout proved too powerful for Cabba to take down at power level 80,000.

The long term plan is worth saving. We're going to have a hard time saving it if we vote to go nuclear just because our eleven year old PC is Hot Blooded.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
@Lailoken , I think you may be getting a bit mixed up about whose plans are whose. Or maybe I'm not understanding you.

Gore 's plan (the one strauss just voted for) is "in character" in that it follows vote weighting (that is to say, it gives in to "Hot Blooded" rather than resisting it). It hopefully has the advantage of terrifying the alien scout into submission (ending the fight and allowing negotiation). But it ALSO completely blows away any hope of us convincing Maya that she is anything other than a newborn child in terms of her current power level. It does not, however, reveal any hidden techniques; it just involves Kakara cranking up her power level as high as she possibly can without making Maya wonder why she just grew a tail.

@strauss , to answer your question, you are totally right that Maya is going to figure out some things soon, like "we're more powerful than we let on." However, this is not the time to do that if we can avoid it. The real challenge here isn't subduing the scout, it's minimizing the need for damage control and minimizing the damage done to Maya's willingness to trust us.

@KaintukeeBob 's plan is in the process of being amended to NOT reveal any secret/infohazard techniques. It DOES disrupt Berra's plan, but quite frankly there was no way to avoid doing that given that the alien scout is too tough to be subdued by people fighting at or below Maya's current power level. We can't fight at 80,000 and take down a giant lizard-man whose (transformed) power level is 300,000. Following Berra's plan at this point would result in Maya being endangered or even killed, which would in turn wreck Berra's plan.
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I'm not following them closely because none of them appear to offer any sort of advantage. Maya observing things can be handled by taking advantage of the fact that her ki senses are dismal and enough rock (like, say, a planet) blocks ki perception. Taking the alien down without a lot of power can be handled by letting a vastly more skilled fighter and/or multiple fighters (like, say, Berra and/or the warrior hand-picked to lead the hunter team) fight him at far, far lower power levels than Kakara would need. The original problems with diplomacy can be negated by taking Maya somewhere else (like, say, the opposite side of the planet).

None of these involve ruining Berra's plan more than has already occurred, blasting up to twelve million in front of people who can signal, or some convoluted lie to Kakara's best friend about Goku's signature technique.
 
From the sound of it, then, you're criticizing plans you aren't reading, conflating the flaws in one plan with the flaws in another, and just plain not perceiving efforts other people have already made to address the flaws you identify.

If I realized I was doing this, I'd probably back up and start over from first principles.
 
Lailoken said:
I'm not following them closely because none of them appear to offer any sort of advantage. Maya observing things can be handled by taking advantage of the fact that her ki senses are dismal and enough rock (like, say, a planet) blocks ki perception. Taking the alien down without a lot of power can be handled by letting a vastly more skilled fighter and/or multiple fighters (like, say, Berra and/or the warrior hand-picked to lead the hunter team) fight him at far, far lower power levels than Kakara would need. The original problems with diplomacy can be negated by taking Maya somewhere else (like, say, the opposite side of the planet).

None of these involve ruining Berra's plan more than has already occurred, blasting up to twelve million in front of people who can signal, or some convoluted lie to Kakara's best friend about Goku's signature technique.
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Actually, it is 300 million.

Edit: I am helping!
 
Simon_Jester said:
From the sound of it, then, you're criticizing plans you aren't reading, conflating the flaws in one plan with the flaws in another, and just plain not perceiving efforts other people have already made to address the flaws you identify.

If I realized I was doing this, I'd probably back up and start over from first principles.
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Click to shrink...

Working from first principles, the correct plan is one I haven't seen proposed by anyone else, and thus not any of those plans.

-but hey, let's give it a shot.

[X] Plan Not Again v2
-[] Communicate with Cabba and Dad about this plan
--[] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Power Growth x 10!!!"
--[] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
---[] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
--[] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
--[] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
---[] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
---[] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
-[] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
-[] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
--[] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.

Power up to 800,000 in front of Maya and cover it by lying to her, then hope she's in a state of mind to listen to orders while mindlessly charging at the giant monster she just saw savage her first love. If any part of this fails, shoot all the way up to 12 million in front of Maya for no reason and violently restrain everybody.

-as opposed to not doing any of those things.

[] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
-[] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
[] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
-[] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
--[] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargining table.

We're back at 12 million, thus utterly demolishing any hope of keeping Berra's plan on track, alerting the entire Saiyan population that something big is happening when Berra clearly wants to keep some part of this secret from them, and telling all of the stealthed enemies with interstellar communications devices to drop everything they're doing and hide at any cost while screaming to the galaxy at large that something's up on this planet. All in the hope that the desperate scout who can't sense ki is going to engage in and complete diplomacy before a murderously enraged Berra shows up and starts punching anything that doesn't look humanoid.

-as opposed to not doing any of those things.



Bakkasama said:
Actually, it is 300 million.

Edit: I am helping!
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I think her masque cap is 80% of her ordinary Saiyan cap, which is 15 million. I don't think she can access her Super Saiyan boost without transforming, though I do notice that the Saiyan masque can apparently go Super Saiyan and Great Ape without breaking, so that's something to remember for later.

Kai help us if you're right.
 
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Hey Poptart, are we able to do the short term power up others by sharing our Ki thing?
 
Lailoken said:
Working from first principles, the correct plan is one I haven't seen proposed by anyone else, and thus not any of those plans.

-but hey, let's give it a shot.

[X] Plan Not Again v2
-[] Communicate with Cabba and Dad about this plan
--[] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Power Growth x 10!!!"
--[] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
---[] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
--[] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
--[] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
---[] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
---[] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
-[] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
-[] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
--[] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.

Power up to 800,000 in front of Maya and cover it by lying to her, then hope she's in a state of mind to listen to orders while mindlessly charging at the giant monster she just saw savage her first love. If any part of this fails, shoot all the way up to 12 million in front of Maya for no reason and violently restrain everybody.

-as opposed to not doing any of those things.

[] 2.0x Get up and fight. Maya can't win this on her own. She needs your help.
-[] 2.5x At your Masqued maximum.
[] Not. We wrote in something not involving fighting for the other vote.
-[] Interpose yourself between the two, bellow "Enough" and send out a shockwave to knock them both back.
--[] Engage Diplomacy mode: Ask the scout why he's here and go from there in an attempt to talk him down and bring him to the bargining table.

We're back at 12 million, thus utterly demolishing any hope of keeping Berra's plan on track, alerting the entire Saiyan population that something big is happening when Berra clearly wants to keep some part of this secret from them, and telling all of the stealthed enemies with interstellar communications devices to drop everything they're doing and hide at any cost while screaming to the galaxy at large that something's up on this planet. All in the hope that the desperate scout who can't sense ki is going to engage in and complete diplomacy before a murderously enraged Berra shows up and starts punching anything that doesn't look humanoid.

-as opposed to not doing any of those things.





I think her masque cap is 80% of her ordinary Saiyan cap, which is 15 million. I don't think she can access her Super Saiyan boost without transforming, though I do notice that the Saiyan masque can apparently go Super Saiyan and Great Ape without breaking, so that's something to remember for later.

Kai help us if you're right.
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She is FPSS. Her untransformed cap is 375 million now, 300 at 80%.

Actually, regarding the Cabba plan... does he even know telekinesis?
 
Aranfan said:
Nope, that she is a FPSSJ raises her ordinary saiyan cap too.

Edit: What about plan bug out?
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It's not awful, though I've added bits to account for the possibility that Berra won't be there quickly enough or won't know that Maya's senses have been obscured. Having Kakara grab both Maya and Cabba instead of just Maya might also be a significant delay leading to problems.



Bakkasama said:
She is FPSS. Her untransformed cap is 375 million now, 300 at 80%.

Actually, regarding the Cabba plan... does he even know telekinesis?
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Glorious. Take everything I've been saying and multiply it by 25.

Now instead of the galaxy finding out that there are 12-million-level ki users hiding here, they get to find out that there are champions multiple times stronger than Frieza. That absolutely will provoke a response.
 
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Lailoken said:
It's not awful, though I've added bits to account for the possibility that Berra won't be there quickly enough or won't know that Maya's senses have been obscured. Having Kakara grab both Maya and Cabba instead of just Maya might also be a significant delay leading to problems.
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It looks like you might have to vote for it if you don't want "There will be peace" or "Not again" to win.
 
[X] Plan Not Again v2

So I'm new to this quest (just binge read it all yesterday) and decided it was best to sleep after reading the last chapter rather than post right away. I'll just put my concerns aside for the moment to stay on topic for this vote, although I will need to be informed of how Kakara views pacifism, and how to unify that with her worldview which seems to me to oscillate between very mature and properly reflective of a ~10 year old.
 
Okay, let me see if I can analyze the objections to "Not Again," in particular those of @Lailoken . As I understand it they are:

1a) SOMEONE (not us, but someone) has to power up to 800,000 in front of Maya.
1b) This is being done in a way that includes a reference to one of Goku's signature techniques.
2) We'd be lying to Maya after the fact.
3) We expect Maya to take orders when she's angry.
4) If the plan fails, we go up to 12,000,000, at which point the fit has hit the Shan rather comprehensively.

Okay, now a lot of this depends on @KaintukeeBob 's input and views, and frankly I haven't seen him around in a few hours so he's in a poor position to stick up for his own plan. He may be able to easily address these issues. For reference, I quote the plan.

[] Plan Not Again v2
-[] Communicate with Cabba and Dad about this plan
--[] Cabba will power up to 800,000 while screaming "Power Growth x 10!!!"
--[] Cabba will subdue the alien using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
---[] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
--[] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to no more than 20,000 and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
--[] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
---[] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
---[] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
-[] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up, pulling her away from the alien if needed.
-[] If at any point it looks like inaction on our point will leave Maya in danger, power up to full and hold EVERYONE with Telekinesis.
--[] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.
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(4) is a valid objection to the plan EXCEPT that it this plan relatively foolproof unless Kakara has an inexplicable panic attack (of a type that could easily doom any plan we make). It isn't complicated, it doesn't rely on an enemy reacting. Cabba just powers up to a level well beyond the scout's demonstrated abilities, and kicks his ass. The fact that our backup plan isn't very good is relevant insofar as we're likely to need it, which frankly we aren't. BUT the plan can still be improved. More on that later.

(3) is a false objection, because the plan explicitly incorporates "we will physically pull Maya out of this fight if necessary." Furthermore, this helps address the issue you point out in (4). Our Plan A involves Kakara and Maya falling back. Only Cabba remains in the fight, fighting at a power level that permits him to easily overmatch the scout's transformed form. Since Cabba is a reasonably experienced fighter who was only at a disadvantage earlier because he was stuck fighting at a low power level, this should wrap things up quickly. BUT the plan can still be improved to further address and negate this objection. More on that later.

(2) is a problem we're going to have no matter what happens, sooner or later. We've already lied to Maya by omission and arguably by commission. The proposed 'lie' (there exists a dangerous forbidden technique for greatly increasing your power while greatly harming your body in the process) is inconsequential compared to the bullshit we've tried (successfully as far as we know) to get Maya to believe in the past. Arguably, it's not even a lie compared to this. We're the people who've taught her she can fly and shoot lasers from her eyes.

(1a) is not a fundamental problem because Maya DOES already know there are more powerful ki users on the planet. She's a child and a novice; she's not going to be surprised that there are adults who can (temporarily or permanently) outperform her.

(1b) is the biggest problem with the whole thing, but also the easiest to address, because:
-The specific trail back to Goku's Kaio-Ken technique is easy to cover up by just, y'know, not yelling the words "KAIO KEN" at the top of your lungs.
-The alien scout almost certainly does not know many details of this technique personally, being as how it was only ever used by someone who died hundreds of years ago, possibly thousands of years ago.
-The very fact that the alien himself just hulked out and doubled in size with shoulder spikes and red glowing eyes suggests that he is no stranger to the concept of power-boosting transformations.

Now, I do recognize the basic validity of your concerns. For @KaintukeeBob 's approval I would like to suggest a Version 3 of the plan.
_________________________

[X] Plan Not Again v3
-[X] Go back to Plan Not Again v2 if this version does not get support.
-[X] Communicate with Cabba and Dad about this plan
--[X] Cabba will power up to 800,000, PRETENDING to use use a special power-up technique to do so, WITHOUT actually shouting the words "KAIO KEN!"
---[X] Something more like "POWER OF DOOM!" or a good old fashioned "RAAAAGH!" would be good.
--[X] Cabba will subdue the alien, if possible using raw telekinesis to hold him in place
---[X] If Cabba does not feel secure in his ability to do so, he may instead knock the alien out quickly in whatever manner he chooses
--[X] Once the alien is unconscious or removed from the field, Cabba will drop his power level to 20,000 or less, and play up the exhaustion and strain he feels.
--[X] Once Dad arrives, defer to his directions
---[X] Recommend (using telepathy) he KO the scout (if this hasn't already happened) and get him to the Training Hall's cells before quickly returning.
---[X] Suggest we all clear the area quickly (Dad and us using IT to get Maya and Cabba out if needed).
-[X] Call Maya back to us while Cabba powers up. If she keeps trying to attack the alien, pulling her away physically. Fly away to a considerable distance.
-[X] If at any point it looks like inaction on our part will leave Maya in serious danger, power up to 1,200,000 and restrain the alien ourselves.
--[X] Dad can explain it to Maya as a 'Seer' thing or a limit break or whatever if he wants.

There. This version of the plan achieves all the same basic goals but with a bit more safety factor on most of the problems.
-Less world-shaking power levels are displayed in the backup plan, closer to the minimum necessary to keep our friends safe and quickly stop our opponent.
-It is made more clear that we're trying to physically keep Maya out of the fight whether she obeys our orders quickly or not.
-It is made more clear that we're trying to avoid anything that too strongly hints at the defenders of Garenhuld having one of Goku's signature techniques, as opposed to a generic "hulk the heck out" power-up of the same kind the scout already demonstrated.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Okay, let me see if I can analyze the objections to "Not Again," in particular those of @Lailoken . As I understand it they are:

1a) SOMEONE (not us, but someone) has to power up to 800,000 in front of Maya.
1b) This is being done in a way that includes a reference to one of Goku's signature techniques.
2) We'd be lying to Maya after the fact.
3) We expect Maya to take orders when she's angry.
4) If the plan fails, we go up to 12,000,000, at which point the fit has hit the Shan rather comprehensively.

Okay, now a lot of this depends on @KaintukeeBob 's input and views, and frankly I haven't seen him around in a few hours so he's in a poor position to stick up for his own plan. He may be able to easily address these issues. For reference, I quote the plan.



(4) is a valid objection to the plan EXCEPT that it this plan relatively foolproof unless Kakara has an inexplicable panic attack (of a type that could easily doom any plan we make). It isn't complicated, it doesn't rely on an enemy reacting. Cabba just powers up to a level well beyond the scout's demonstrated abilities, and kicks his ass. The fact that our backup plan isn't very good is relevant insofar as we're likely to need it, which frankly we aren't. BUT the plan can still be improved. More on that later.

(3) is a false objection, because the plan explicitly incorporates "we will physically pull Maya out of this fight if necessary." Furthermore, this helps address the issue you point out in (4). Our Plan A involves Kakara and Maya falling back. Only Cabba remains in the fight, fighting at a power level that permits him to easily overmatch the scout's transformed form. Since Cabba is a reasonably experienced fighter who was only at a disadvantage earlier because he was stuck fighting at a low power level, this should wrap things up quickly. BUT the plan can still be improved to further address and negate this objection. More on that later.

(2) is a problem we're going to have no matter what happens, sooner or later. We've already lied to Maya by omission and arguably by commission. The proposed 'lie' (there exists a dangerous forbidden technique for greatly increasing your power while greatly harming your body in the process) is inconsequential compared to the bullshit we've tried (successfully as far as we know) to get Maya to believe in the past. Arguably, it's not even a lie compared to this. We're the people who've taught her she can fly and shoot lasers from her eyes.

(1a) is not a fundamental problem because Maya DOES already know there are more powerful ki users on the planet. She's a child and a novice; she's not going to be surprised that there are adults who can (temporarily or permanently) outperform her.

(1b) is the biggest problem with the whole thing, but also the easiest to address, because:
-The specific trail back to Goku's Kaio-Ken technique is easy to cover up by just, y'know, not yelling the words "KAIO KEN" at the top of your lungs.
-The alien scout almost certainly does not know many details of this technique personally, being as how it was only ever used by someone who died hundreds of years ago, possibly thousands of years ago.
-The very fact that the alien himself just hulked out and doubled in size with shoulder spikes and red glowing eyes suggests that he is no stranger to the concept of power-boosting transformations.

Now, I do recognize the basic validity of your concerns. For @KaintukeeBob 's approval I would like to suggest a Version 3 of the plan.
_________________________



There. This version of the plan achieves all the same basic goals but with a bit more safety factor on most of the problems.
-Less world-shaking power levels are displayed in the backup plan, closer to the minimum necessary to keep our friends safe and quickly stop our opponent.
-It is made more clear that we're trying to physically keep Maya out of the fight whether she obeys our orders quickly or not.
-It is made more clear that we're trying to avoid anything that too strongly hints at the defenders of Garenhuld having one of Goku's signature techniques, as opposed to a generic "hulk the heck out" power-up of the same kind the scout already demonstrated.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The "foolproof" plan requires somebody who isn't ki prodigy to surge without being noticed or addressed. In the meantime, Kakara at 200K is going to be trying to grab a near-peer already in mid-charge towards an enemy who can move faster than she can see, and if she doesn't manhandle this quite strong girl fast enough the plan calls for Kakara to go to 300 million for no reason.

-instead of blinding everybody and using her communication skills to her close enough to Maya to surprise-teleport her.

Again, desperate enemy moving faster than sight.

Deceit remains difficult and a completely unnecessary point of failure.

Maya does not know, and certainly not by how much. The fact that Berra is going to great lengths to maintain this situation suggests it is not to be thoughtlessly discarded when superior alternatives are available.

Great, so now it's just telling the scouts that the locals are an OOM more powerful than previously believed, drawing the attention of the Saiyans Berra is keeping in the dark, and creating a potential mess with Maya for no reason.


Again, the reason Kakara was tasked with handling this is that Berra couldn't get away from his human duties without causing problems. The last vote eliminated that restraint. There is now no reason why Kakara has to be the one to handle this. Inventing complex schemes for her to handle this doesn't change the fact that she should be handling something completely different, namely Maya, the reason this has been so complicated to begin with. Get Maya away and the problem simplifies vastly for the multiple people other than Kakara who can handle it.
 
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