Dragon Ball: After the End

[Pittauro]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I'm simply not convinced re: PM, and I'm getting soured on being told that my plan is "objectively" "mechanically" worse.

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well, it's "worse" if we believe that we don't actually "need" one of the upgraded skills you're spending multiple AP on in the short term, as if we don't than it's simply better to spend 1 ap per turn for the next 8 turns.

Also 2 ap, while a bit worse, is not TOO big of a difference. I'd be much more strongly against 3 ap, but 2 is acceptable.

now, the skills you're spending 2 ap on are

--[X] Continue Your Training (2 AP): You've come to a new plateau in your abilities and mapped the new edges of your gift. Now seems like a fine time to push the boundaries, or pick up some new tricks. Follow Dazarel's training regime.

--[X] Style Training (2 AP) [Tien Style] (1 Free AP)

--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (2 AP) (1 Free AP)

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so, the question is: Do you think we'll need any of these in the next turn/couple of turns in particular?

are you planning to CONTINEU spending 2 ap per turn each turn for the foreseeable future (let's say until the invasion in 8 turns (4 in case something goes wrong))?

if the answer is yes to even one of this, than "mechanically objectively worse" it's a bit of an exaggeration.


That said, I still prefer investing mostly 1 ap in each, but the ones you spend 2 ap in are mostly fine to me. they're among our most important AND the ones with the most progress before they can be considered mastered after all.

 

[KnightDisciple]

well, it's "worse" if we believe that we don't actually "need" one of the upgraded skills you're spending multiple AP on in the short term, as if we don't than it's simply better to spend 1 ap per turn for the next 8 turns.

Also 2 ap, while a bit worse, is not TOO big of a difference. I'd be much more strongly against 3 ap, but 2 is acceptable.

now, the skills you're spending 2 ap on are




so, the question is: Do you think we'll need any of these in the next turn/couple of turns in particular?

are you planning to CONTINEU spending 2 ap per turn each turn for the foreseeable future (let's say until the invasion in 8 turns (4 in case something goes wrong))?

if the answer is yes to even one of this, than "mechanically objectively worse" it's a bit of an exaggeration.


That said, I still prefer investing mostly 1 ap in each, but the ones you spend 2 ap in are mostly fine to me. they're among our most important AND the ones with the most progress before they can be considered mastered after all.

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I absolutely anticipate needing any and all skill increases to Sight ASAP considering what we're doing right now, and any edge we can give Bassoon via increasing Host Bond will absolutely help ASAP as well.

Tien style may not need right this absolute second, but I also view building up the fundamental style as the most important step, with the individual skills/techniques branching off of that.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I'm simply not convinced re: PM, and I'm getting soured on being told that my plan is "objectively" "mechanically" worse.

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If you refuse to argue the point and are unable to counter it then I can drop it. Unfortunately this is going to continue to come up every single time, because every time you make a mechanical error that can be trivially fixed by rearranging the same actions across multiple turns, even if you don't care that you're wrong, the argument has to be made so that other people can read the logic and make an informed decision.

I don't point this out every time to piss you off, I point it out every time so that people skimming the thread understand why it's wrong.

EDIT: Like, I'm genuinely sorry that we've had this argument more than once, but not making it is effectively ceding the point for that voting cycle.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

@KnightDisciple 's plan is currently invalid, if I understand things correctly. We have 0 AP in the Outside World category (but can spend free AP there). If you use free AP for those two actions, you're spending 7.

Want to revise the plan, then ping your voters to let them know of changes?

 

[Wiadi]

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head

 

[Aunty Shi Ping]

To me, style training does seem to take forever, and is somewhat central. Spending two points for the foreseeable future would not be the worst fate. Sight training seems similar too.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

To me, style training does seem to take forever, and is somewhat central. Spending two points for the foreseeable future would not be the worst fate. Sight training seems similar too.

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I don't disagree that it'll take a lot of actions, but why double up and take a penalty to effectiveness when you can spread them out over all eight turns? If it turns out later that we're near a convenient level up, we can always double up then.

 

[QTesseract]

I don't disagree that it'll take a lot of actions, but why double up and take a penalty to effectiveness when you can spread them out over all eight turns? If it turns out later that we're near a convenient level up, we can always double up then.

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I think there's a fair argument to be made on style training because it's super important for combat ability and we don't know when we're going to throw down. Hit things better, especially in dragonball, is a very widely applicable skill, and even if it doesn't get us to a threshold before a specific critical fight, it does, say, shorten how long a training arc we need to have to reach it after a loss, or how long we have to postpone a conflict to get it, etcetera. I think doubling up is not worth it on most of our skills atm, but Tien style is the one you can make a fair argument for.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I think there's a fair argument to be made on style training because it's super important for combat ability and we don't know when we're going to throw down. Hit things better, especially in dragonball, is a very widely applicable skill, and even if it doesn't get us to a threshold before a specific critical fight, it does, say, shorten how long a training arc we need to have to reach it after a loss, or how long we have to postpone a conflict to get it, etcetera. I think doubling up is not worth it on most of our skills atm, but Tien style is the one you can make a fair argument for.

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We aren't going to throw down in person before the invasion though, because we're stuck in Bassoon's head. It would be by giving Bassoon precog advice and our ki, surely?

I'd still disagree that the marginal cost of doubling down (the chance of wasting an action) is outweighed by the likelihood that:

1. We throw down in the critical turn where we would have levelled up but didn't
2. That on that one turn, the Style bonus tips us over the edge

 

[QTesseract]

We aren't going to throw down in person before the invasion though, because we're stuck in Bassoon's head. It would be by giving Bassoon precog advice and our ki, surely?

I'd still disagree that the marginal cost of doubling down (the chance of wasting an action) is outweighed by the likelihood that:

1. We throw down in the critical turn where we would have levelled up but didn't
2. That on that one turn, the Style bonus tips us over the edge

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We can leave Bassoon's head, as long as it's temporary, and any edge to our fighting skills could be useful for winning a fight before our timer runs out. It's unlikely to be neccesary for, say, the 60M champion on this planet because we could take them, but a few months ago we also wouldnt have expected to even have it potentially come up. Combat also isn't a binary pass fail mechanic; an extra 10 isn't just "do we win the fight" but also "how fast do we win;" if our allies are also fighting people at the same time, it could be the difference between winning the fight fast enough to save most of our comrades from being injured and saving all of them from being injured. It's also "what do we give away in the process;" the closer we are to tying a fight, the more we might have to use moves like Instant Transmission instead to make up the gap that a style could have filled, and those can be identified. It's also "is there, how much, and what kind of collateral damage that we can't prevent." These are true of all techniques that could be used in combat, yes, but Style is better than most of them.

More immediately, there's also the possibility that there will be more things to sink AP onto before the invasion that we don't know about yet; if it turns out we need 10 AP on tien style over the next 8 turns, better to double now when it's competing with, say, four witches then when it's competing with free AP on conducting ambushes or whatever.


For most of our actions, "is 2 AP on this worth it" is a definite no. For Style training, IMO, it's more of an it depends.

 

[KnightDisciple]

If you refuse to argue the point and are unable to counter it then I can drop it. Unfortunately this is going to continue to come up every single time, because every time you make a mechanical error that can be trivially fixed by rearranging the same actions across multiple turns, even if you don't care that you're wrong, the argument has to be made so that other people can read the logic and make an informed decision.

I don't point this out every time to piss you off, I point it out every time so that people skimming the thread understand why it's wrong.

EDIT: Like, I'm genuinely sorry that we've had this argument more than once, but not making it is effectively ceding the point for that voting cycle.

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I do not accept that I'm just "wrong". That is the primary point of contention. This isn't just about "we have different priorities", I'm getting pissed off because you're going the extra step of trying to invalidate my plan, and explain for everyone why I'm Wrong and Bad.

 

[KnightDisciple]

Separate post for revised plan, after it was pointed out how I was mis-spending AP. Specifically that we have 0 free AP in Outside World.

[x][TASK] -heading out and locating the fleet itself. This sort of thing -- sneaking around massive fleets -- is almost exactly Bassoon's specialty. All that would need to change to be any more perfect would be if he was trying to reach a planet they were blockading.

[X] Plan Namekian Batman 2.8 Dream Dive Distance
-[X]Sight
--[X] Continue Your Training (2 AP): You've come to a new plateau in your abilities and mapped the new edges of your gift. Now seems like a fine time to push the boundaries, or pick up some new tricks. Follow Dazarel's training regime.
-[X] Looking Abroad (1 AP) [Tien Style]: Utilize our Sight to view Tien himself and/or historical Masters of Tien Style, to supplement our own Style Training (1 Free AP)
-[X]Training
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Dodonpa]
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Ki Refinement]
--[X] Style Training (2 AP) [Tien Style] (1 Free AP)
--[X] New Skill (1 AP) [Four Witches Technique] (1 Free AP)
--[X] Improve a Skill (1 AP) [Kikoho] (1 Free AP)
-[X] Social
--[X] Strengthen Host Bond (2 AP) (1 Free AP)
--[X] Talk to Dazarel (1 AP)
-[X]A Cause
--[X] Looking Home (1 AP)

@Terrabrand @exerty @Jirachi47 please note the revised plan and determine if you still wish to vote for it.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

We can leave Bassoon's head, as long as it's temporary,

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Well yes, but Kakara leaving Bassoon's head is an automatic no-go surely, because it risks exposing her existence to the Enemy via anyone who wants a quick payday?

I agree with the rest of the paragraph RE: fighting, but it's invalidated if we can't go out and fight. (I suppose it's possible that something could push us to do so, but I think the chances of us courting Quest End in the next few turns to be slim.

More immediately, there's also the possibility that there will be more things to sink AP onto before the invasion that we don't know about yet; if it turns out we need 10 AP on tien style over the next 8 turns, better to double now when it's competing with, say, four witches then when it's competing with free AP on conducting ambushes or whatever.

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I would definitely argue that unless we know we need to spend 10 AP ahead of time, it's equally likely we only need to spend exactly 8 or even less, in which case we've blown an action in terms of the current time crunch.

I didn't like the idea of spending lots of AP on Tien style over any time period when we're away from teachers on Garenhuld, but I'm also kind of changing my mind on that a bit - the longer we're away, the less actions we'll have available that don't benefit from Garenhuld. Garenhuld's pretty great if you're the Scion. (In fact, I think I said a while back I didn't want to go past journeyman, and I'm less sure about that now.)

I do not accept that I'm just "wrong". That is the primary point of contention. This isn't just about "we have different priorities", I'm getting pissed off because you're going the extra step of trying to invalidate my plan, and explain for everyone why I'm Wrong and Bad.

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Okay, but you explained your reasoning, I made a counterpoint explaining why that reasoning doesn't seem to hold up across 8 turns as opposed to one or two, and your reaction was to declare you're annoyed people are saying you're wrong and not address this reasoning in any way.

Like, what do I even do there? Do I sit there and let your point that we're in a time crunch pass uncontested when I have an entirely valid counterpoint regarding the length of said time crunch, for fear that you'll declare that you're mad that people are still arguing with you? I can't just pre-emptively concede the argument for fear of upsetting you, Knight.

 

[KnightDisciple]

Well yes, but Kakara leaving Bassoon's head is an automatic no-go surely, because it risks exposing her existence to the Enemy via anyone who wants a quick payday?

I agree with the rest of the paragraph RE: fighting, but it's invalidated if we can't go out and fight. (I suppose it's possible that something could push us to do so, but I think the chances of us courting Quest End in the next few turns to be slim.


I would definitely argue that unless we know we need to spend 10 AP ahead of time, it's equally likely we only need to spend exactly 8 or even less, in which case we've blown an action in terms of the current time crunch.

I didn't like the idea of spending lots of AP on Tien style over any time period when we're away from teachers on Garenhuld, but I'm also kind of changing my mind on that a bit - the longer we're away, the less actions we'll have available that don't benefit from Garenhuld. Garenhuld's pretty great if you're the Scion. (In fact, I think I said a while back I didn't want to go past journeyman, and I'm less sure about that now.)


Okay, but you explained your reasoning, I made a counterpoint explaining why that reasoning doesn't seem to hold up across 8 turns as opposed to one or two, and your reaction was to declare you're annoyed people are saying you're wrong and not address this reasoning in any way.

Like, what do I even do there? Do I sit there and let your point that we're in a time crunch pass uncontested when I have an entirely valid counterpoint regarding the length of said time crunch, for fear that you'll declare that you're mad that people are still arguing with you? I can't just pre-emptively concede the argument for fear of upsetting you, Knight.

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I've already explained why I believe it's critical to put 2 AP into Sight Training and Host Bond (both are likely to be crucial to our immediate survival and success in our efforts to observe the Fleet, which is what happens right now if that Task wins).

I'd love to wait to train Tien Style until we're back on Garenhuld. But we don't know how long that will be, because not only do we have to do some work to "jump back" to our body, we also have to figure out how to start breaking enchantments, or otherwise do something to disrupt the shit going down there. And on top of that, we need every force-multiplier we can get. Which training our Style absolutely gives.

On top of that, training our Style now helps in more immediate conflicts. And as @QTesseract observed, winning a fight is not just about the raw numbers. Every time we manifest outside of Bassoon's head, we are on a timer. The quicker we win fights, the better.

And all of this is on top of the fact that the QM has explained that, no, it is not in fact a "waste" to use 2 AP (more than 2, yes) on a single item. There is some tradeoff, but it does give more returns than 1, even if it's not exactly the same as the abstract math on "spreading those AP out over multiple turns". I don't want to assume we'll have exactly 8 turns of time we can equally train. I don't want to assume something won't happen that will disrupt that. In which case, I myself consider the foundational skill of Tien Style to be critical.

You disagree. You are absolutely free to do that.

I get pissed because you're basically talking down to me like I'm a child. I do not appreciate it, and I am not a fan of being told I'm "objectively" "wrong". I would request you stop treating me as such. This isn't a math test. This is a game with a highly abstracted system.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

In the interest of making voting a little easier, especially since the vote tally mangles things, I've gone ahead and summarized the differences in the three plans that have at least 2 votes. Unfortunately doing it for all like 7 plans is a lot less practical, since there will be too many differences.

Namekian Batman 2.8 Dream Dive Distance
Extra AP Training with Dazarel
Looking Abroad: Tien Style
Extra AP Training Tien Style
New Skill: Four Witches Technique
Extra AP on Host Bond

No Historical Insights
No Perfect Multiform

All Is One in Bassoon's Head
Ki Sense - All is One
General Training (the Namekians)

Thunder
Looking Abroad: Thunder Shock Surprise
Improve a Skill: Ki Overdrive
Improve a Skill: Solar Flare
Research Project: Thunder Shock Surprise

No Dodonpa

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I've already explained why I believe it's critical to put 2 AP into Sight Training and Host Bond (both are likely to be crucial to our immediate survival and success in our efforts to observe the Fleet, which is what happens right now if that Task wins).

I'd love to wait to train Tien Style until we're back on Garenhuld. But we don't know how long that will be, because not only do we have to do some work to "jump back" to our body, we also have to figure out how to start breaking enchantments, or otherwise do something to disrupt the shit going down there. And on top of that, we need every force-multiplier we can get. Which training our Style absolutely gives.

On top of that, training our Style now helps in more immediate conflicts. And as @QTesseract observed, winning a fight is not just about the raw numbers. Every time we manifest outside of Bassoon's head, we are on a timer. The quicker we win fights, the better.

And all of this is on top of the fact that the QM has explained that, no, it is not in fact a "waste" to use 2 AP (more than 2, yes) on a single item. There is some tradeoff, but it does give more returns than 1, even if it's not exactly the same as the abstract math on "spreading those AP out over multiple turns". I don't want to assume we'll have exactly 8 turns of time we can equally train. I don't want to assume something won't happen that will disrupt that. In which case, I myself consider the foundational skill of Tien Style to be critical.

You disagree. You are absolutely free to do that.

I get pissed because you're basically talking down to me like I'm a child. I do not appreciate it, and I am not a fan of being told I'm "objectively" "wrong". I would request you stop treating me as such. This isn't a math test. This is a game with a highly abstracted system.

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Okay, so the thing is, at the time I was making that point you hadn't made those arguments. You have since made them in response to someone else, by which point I was no longer arguing the point and was instead explaining that I'm not trying to piss you off and asking how else I can argue.

You instead declared you wished to agree to disagree, and that you were annoyed at being called wrong. But you hadn't said anything about the current Task. (Incidentally, those are fair arguments which do in fact push the bar out from "objectively wrong" to "subjectively disagreeing.")

I'm frustrated because apparently you had a perfectly valid counterpoint, but instead of delivering it and possibly changing my mind (and more importantly, those of the readers) you just said you were getting annoyed at being argued with! I'm doubly frustrated because at least regarding being "objectively wrong", you were one counterpoint away from winning the argument!

I'm sorry you think I'm talking down to you like a child. I promise I'm not - I'm attempting to lay out my arguments as clearly as possible because I'm not just writing to convince you, I'm writing to convince people reading this thread.

EDIT: To be clear, you hadn't made the argument that we were in a time crunch for this very turn, which made the tradeoff of 2 actions in one turn versus 1 action over 2 turns immediately relevant in a way that 8 turns did not.

 

[Adnate]

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head

 

[QTesseract]

Well yes, but Kakara leaving Bassoon's head is an automatic no-go surely, because it risks exposing her existence to the Enemy via anyone who wants a quick payday?

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Not really. It's not the first resort, but it is a resort. Even without the masque, we absolutely could pretend to be human, via hiding our tail, or speedblitzing them, or just hanging out at long range and using our better beam attacks (The Kamehameha is recognizable, but not the rest of them). Sure, going super Saiyan might be a last ditch movement, but there's still a fairly wide gap between us and the next most powerful member of the team without it.

 

[Cariyaga]

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head

I like this one. All is One seems pretty relevant to our situation, and may give boosts to Genki Dama, as well.

 

[Pittauro]

For most of our actions, "is 2 AP on this worth it" is a definite no. For Style training, IMO, it's more of an it depends.

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true, especially because while we'd likely get one level up even with 1 ap per turn before the battle, there's a decent chance that, with 2 per turn, we might get ANOTHER level up, depending on how many points of progress we get per action.

right now I'd say that the only actions on which 2 ap are understandable are basically the one @KnightDisciple chose, and MAYBE perfect multiform.

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head

I like this one. All is One seems pretty relevant to our situation, and may give boosts to Genki Dama, as well.

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to be fair it's unlikely we'll achieve it very quickly. It IS an elite talent after all, and I don't think we trained it at all before.

Still, elite talents are nearly always worth pursuing. There might be some advantage in trying "all is one" on a planet with many billions of people of multiple species that we can't get in training it on, say, the relatively unpopulated New Namek



I still prefer Thunder Shock Surprise (which, by the way, Kakara would see in her vision as used in basically slow motion, seeing as the first time Roshi used it in canon he was INCREDIBLY weak by her standards).

It should certainly be much easier than Perfect Multiform at least!

 

[Axel Fones]

[X] Plan: All Is One in Bassoon's Head

 

[Deathbybunnies]

true, especially because while we'd likely get one level up even with 1 ap per turn before the battle, there's a decent chance that, with 2 per turn, we might get ANOTHER level up, depending on how many points of progress we get per action.

right now I'd say that the only actions on which 2 ap are understandable are basically the one @KnightDisciple chose, and MAYBE perfect multiform.



to be fair it's unlikely we'll achieve it very quickly. It IS an elite talent after all, and I don't think we trained it at all before.

Still, elite talents are nearly always worth pursuing. There might be some advantage in trying "all is one" on a planet with many billions of people of multiple species that we can't get in training it on, say, the relatively unpopulated New Namek



I still prefer Thunder Shock Surprise (which, by the way, Kakara would see in her vision as used in basically slow motion, seeing as the first time Roshi used it in canon he was INCREDIBLY weak by her standards).

It should certainly be much easier than Perfect Multiform at least!

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It's just training the skill from Exceptional to Elite, as the talent is already unlocked, fortunately. So it'll take a step longer than going from Talented to Exceptional, however long that took.

I've kind of come around on TTS in the last few hours, given the synergy of a move that locks up both you and your opponent with having friends there to blast the frozen guy - whether those friends are clones or not. Still not enough to vote for Thunder, alas.

 

[Pittauro]

It's just training the skill from Exceptional to Elite, as the talent is already unlocked, fortunately. So it'll take a step longer than going from Talented to Exceptional, however long that took.

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talented to exceptional also had some "bonus" from our over-skill being exceptional as well, so the step is even longer than "normal".

 

[googlyeyesultra]

I've kind of come around on TTS in the last few hours, given the synergy of a move that locks up both you and your opponent with having friends there to blast the frozen guy - whether those friends are clones or not. Still not enough to vote for Thunder, alas.

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That, and the possible synergy with our electric-powered mental shield are why I'm in to it. But even if you don't go for it this round, I'm happy more people are coming around to it, and even if this particular thunder shock surprise plan doesn't win, that means hopefully it'll get done eventually.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

talented to exceptional also had some "bonus" from our over-skill being exceptional as well, so the step is even longer than "normal".

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That's true. On the bright side, as a "Core skill" we only need to raise one of Flight and Ki Control to Elite to get the superskill to Elite too. So it'll take a bit longer, but it's an investment.

Actually, with Elite Multiform we just need any other Ki Talent skill at Elite.

That, and the possible synergy with our electric-powered mental shield are why I'm in to it. But even if you don't go for it this round, I'm happy more people are coming around to it, and even if this particular thunder shock surprise plan doesn't win, that means hopefully it'll get done eventually.

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I'm not really sure how you'd combine the two, but I can sympathise.